[Luke Owens]

I've moaned on for awhile to climbing friends and on Power Club about the reoccurring tight forearm feeling I get after climbing, It seems to occur when I do routes or boulder no matter how hard or easy the session is.

I've tried all sorts of massaging using tennis balls etc. and warming up and down before and after sessions, but nothing seems to get rid of the deep ache in my forearms. I always seem to have DOMS longer than everyone else as well. Even if I do eat and sleep enough.

If I have the ache and I go to do routes for example I get pumped more quickly than usual and power out real quick, then my forearms get completely cramped up (this hurts a lot!). I always know at the start of the day if it's going to go well or not judging by how deep the ache in my forearms are.

I've also tried taking time off, (up to 3 weeks previously) and the tightness and ache did go away but returned straight away after starting climbing again. It does kinda help if I do some really light training inbetween sessions such as light Aerocap, I remember this doing more good than bad.

At the moment the ache is pretty bad and I've only had 2 short route sessions in the past week but inbetween sessions especially while asleep my forearms, hands and fingers randomly go numb. Right now as I'm typing this I can feel a dull pins and needles feeling in my hands/fingers.

I've spoke to a few people about this now and no one seems to experience the same thing/hasn't got a clue what I'm talking about.

Does this happen to anyone else? Any idea what's going on?

[fried]

Have you investigated pain transferral from your shoulders? Or radial nerve impingment?

[SA Chris]

I've had it on and off for 20 years. I can do a route and lower off feeling so wasted I can't even untie, but there's hardly a vein showing in my forearms, I think it might just be they've never really developed much.

[spam]

I'm not a doctor, but read too much on the internet in search of information about my next injury before it happens.  Google search Exertional Compartment Syndrome Forearm Climbing or some permutation of these terms and see if it fits?

[kelvin]

My left arm plays up Luke, as I've mentioned before. Non of my mates really get what I'm on about. Physio mentioned compartment syndrome, particularly as I get bruising sometimes but from everything I've read, I'm pretty sure that's not applicable to me. I know from the first 'hard' climb of the day just how things will work out. Sometimes pins and needle (this morning actually) but not bad DOMS.

You mention that doing lots of easy aerocap work seemed to help... I think I'm finally getting on top of my issues and it's easy aerocap that's helping, I think. Pretty sure my issues are work related and I have a decent ability to produce lactate but no ability to use it in climbing...

Alex Barrows wrote this in his Training thingymajiggy "  It should be noted that increasing your anaerobic capacity thus increases your ability to produce lactate, meaning that it is essential to do sufficient aerobic capacity work whilst working on this energy system (and aerobic power work afterwards), or your body won’t be able to cope with this new ability and you’ll quickly find yourself very, very pumped. This is a rare example of ‘more is not always better’.

Maybe really focus on the aerocap for a while? Then aeropower? At least then you could eliminate the above as an issue.

It's also worth a read up on compartment stuff I'd have thought and really analyzing the rest of your life too, climbing may not be the root cause of the problem. Fingers crossed it's not that as it sounds pretty nasty.

 

[kelvin]

I get pumped more quickly than usual and power out real quick, then my forearms get completely cramped up (this hurts a lot!).

I could have wrote this myself. I don't have any warning of it until the first time I put some effort in and it's thoroughly disabling - seriously painful. When I try to ignore it and carry on, that's when I get the bruising.

Sorry I've no answers Luke but if two of us get such similar symptoms, there must be something out there on the web.

[Luke Owens]

Thanks everyone.

Have you investigated pain transferral from your shoulders? Or radial nerve impingment?

I get very achy shoulders also, I forgot to mention I often get DOMS in my front delts.

My friend Ally mentioned nerve impingement but in my neck; one day when we were at Malham recently. It was one of them days I knew it wasn't going to go well as I had the ache in my forearms before I started. After a warm up I tried onsighting Rose Coronary and got really powered out. I ended up doing it 3rd redpoint (It's well below my redpoint limit) I really fought the cramp and pain and clawed my way to the top of the route after clipping the chains both of my entire arms from forearms to shoulders cramped up; I couldn't even lift my arms above my head or make a fist it was that bad... This is what made him suggest the above. It was crippling and certainly can't be normal?

I've had it on and off for 20 years. I can do a route and lower off feeling so wasted I can't even untie, but there's hardly a vein showing in my forearms, I think it might just be they've never really developed much.

I definitely have the vascularity to show for it when I get pumped/powered out, it's almost laughable how massive my veins and forearms go.

I'm not a doctor, but read too much on the internet in search of information about my next injury before it happens.  Google search Exertional Compartment Syndrome Forearm Climbing or some permutation of these terms and see if it fits?

Thanks, I'll look into this.

My left arm plays up Luke, as I've mentioned before. Non of my mates really get what I'm on about. Physio mentioned compartment syndrome, particularly as I get bruising sometimes but from everything I've read, I'm pretty sure that's not applicable to me.

Yeah, I remember you saying you had it. I get it equal in both arms just as much pain and ache in both. I've never experienced anything as severe as bruising though.

I have a decent ability to produce lactate but no ability to use it in climbing..

I definitely produce a high level of lactic acid, there's no doubt about that. I basically drown in it. Once I cross the line from Aerobic to Anaerobic I can't sustain it for many moves and just get shut down.

I've never purposely worked my Anaerobic systems but I guess I may have inadvertently done so by spending a lot of time redpointing short hard (for me) routes. This year I've done more aerocap and onsighting which I think helped. For example I had a few weeks where I didn't redpoint anything and just onsighted routes and I didn't get this problem as long as I didn't cross the line to much and power out.

I'd like to think it was just an energy system imbalance, but I think it must be something else due to the numbness and pins and needles. Aerocap is something I'm going to continue working through winter though.

[krymson]

it sounds to me a bit separate - the pumping and the pins and needles issue, but that's just my perspective.

regarding the numbness, I had something similar - numbness/pins down the outside of my elbow to the pinky, especialy after sleeping. This was during a period when i built up quite a bit of muscle in the forearms in a short amount of time from doing fingerboard and bouldering. I looked it up and it seemed to be "ulnar nerve entrapment", a type of pinched nerve syndrome. It resolved itself over time as I fixed my sleeping posture - making sure to keep my arms straight, and doing the same at the computer.

I don't know if that helps but hopefully it gives you more insight - adjusting your sleeping posture is an easy enough fix to try. Besides that aspect the whole combination of issues you're having sounds like it could be time for a few weeks rest/aerocap with maybe a low volume fingerboard session or two a week to maintain fitness, and maybe even a visit to the Doctor?

[siderunner]

I used to get the pins and needles in the outside 2 fingers of my hands. It was especially bad on trips where I was camping, mainly cos I'd often end up sleeping face down with my hands balled up under me (combination of cold and uncomfortable back).

One big thing that I think has changed this for me, apart from sleeping flat with arms straight, is that I do a lot more shoulder stability / chest opening exercises - I.e. 20-40 mins twice a week. It would now be uncomfortable for me to sleep like that as my shoulders dont roll forward like they used to.

The clearest measureable benchmark for me is seated dumbbell shoulder press. I literally couldn't do 12 reps with 5lb dumbbells as it felt so impinged. So I avoided it for years. After physio and other exercises I have faced the humiliation of doing tiny weights and built it gradually up to a relatively normal if unimpressive 35lb in each hand.

May be completely unrelated to your issues, but if you DO have poor shoulder alignment it could be affecting blood flow or nerves down to your hands.

Having said all this, I had a friend with compartment syndrome and it is scary how quickly it can get worse - your issue does sound like it could be related, so worth monitoring your arms with that in mind.

[danm]

It may not be the same thing, but I was chatting to a friend last week who described a nerve impingement problem. It sounds very similar - the numbness in their hands got so bad they had to take a couple of months off work. It was caused by nerve impingement in the neck/shoulders, brought on by lots of sport climbing and sitting at a desk leading to bad posture. Sorting the posture out with antagonistic stuff especially yoga and Pilates seemed to sort it out for them.

[Nibile]

With cramps etc. I would also have a blood test to check minerals levels.
As for the rest, the pins and numbness definitely seem ulnar nerve impingment. As said, I noticed great improvement from sleeping with straight arms, instead of with bent elbows with all my weight on them.

[Luke Owens]

Thanks for the advice guys. I've changed my sleeping position the last few nights, I'm still waking up in the night with random numbness e.g sometimes the thumb on one hand, my whole other hand, pinky on one hand etc. It's completely random. I'm guessing it's not a quick fix so I'll keep at it. Any idea on how long it would take to notice a change if this is the reason for it?

One big thing that I think has changed this for me, apart from sleeping flat with arms straight, is that I do a lot more shoulder stability / chest opening exercises - I.e. 20-40 mins twice a week.

What sort of Shoulder Stability exercises worked best for you and how long did it take for you to notice the effects?

With cramps etc. I would also have a blood test to check minerals levels.

Any idea what sort of deficiency would cause cramps?

Cheers guys

[tj]

As for the rest, the pins and numbness definitely seem ulnar nerve impingment. As said, I noticed great improvement from sleeping with straight arms, instead of with bent elbows with all my weight on them.

Ulna nerve involvement wouldn't affect your thumb.

Seriously dude, skip the internet diagnosis and get yourself checked out by a professional. Sounds like your symptoms are getting worse (?), if that's the case that means you're further damaging your tissues and is likely to make your rehab slower.

[Nibile]

Yes, thanks, I know that ulnar nerve impingement doesn't involve thumbs. Luke hadn't posted yet about the random numbness.
No one here is giving armchair diagnosis, we are only replying to the original question and other issues that came from that one.
And yes, he must see a specialist.

[tj]

Fair enough re: the thumbs, that was just to illustrate a point- it could have been a number of other points out of this thread.

It IS all armchair diagnosis though- without a physical exam (and proper subjective exam for that matter) it can't be anything else.

There's a part of me that hates these threads and I mostly avoid them. I've chipped in partly 'cause the OP has obviously been bothered with this for some time and it clearly isn't settling on its own. IMO (I'm a physio), excepting the dedicated Hallamshire Physio thread, a lot of advice re: musculo-skeletal injury on here merely delays appropriate treatment.

[Matt002]

Do you smoke?
I used to wake up in the night with Dead arms from shoulder down until blood flow would restart, with severe pins and needles., it stopped happening after I quit smoking.  I wasn't sure if this was the cure until a friend mentioned he experienced the same thing until he quit.
Also, I damaged  my ulnar nerve after going over the bars on my bike and landing hard on my wrist.  The back of my left hand went numb for about 18months and is still a little numb compared to the right hand.  Doesn't have any effect on the strength of that hand tho.

[mindfull]

Listen, this no laughing matter, and sure not something to diagnose over the internet. See a doctor (trauma specialist should do, they can measure the functions of your nerves (sensory and force).

I've had 2 cases of nerve injury in the last several years, and if I would not have them treated and in one case surgery too, I could have been paralyzed the first time and the second time I would have lost all functionality in my left hand.

First case was a MTB accident where my spine was damaged. A brace for my neck and total rest (and I mean total, no movement for weeks) to heal this was the answert.
Second time was this summer where I was treated badly by the police while being unconscious. This lead to a nerve blocked and damaged in my left arm which made my hand numb in the lower half of the hand and the fingers, and a loss of power in the fingers. After investigation, the nerve only gave a 10% signal through. After surgery and therapy, I have 80-90% of power back. If not treated it would have only deteriorated.

OK, that was the good news. Power returns. The first time the numbness in one shoulder stayed for more than a year, this time I'm looking forward to 2 years, or even the end of my times in my pinky and and two other fingers.

So see a doctor. Maybe you get some good news and it's only some vascular problems causing the numbness which might only kill you over a longer period ... 

[fatdoc]

Very comprehensive thread.

You really need to get any significant pathology ruled out. You must see a GP

Once that's sorted... Then movement specialist physios, chiros, sports physios et al will help


But... GP first.

Soon

[Luke Owens]

Sorry for the late reply, thanks for the replies guys. Everyone said to go to the doctors so I went a couple of weeks ago. I wasn't entirely convinced he knew what he was doing but he asked me a few questions about where the pains and numbness were etc. and seemed to think it was Carpel Tunnel. From what I've read up it doesn't seem to completely tally up to the symptoms I have.

He's referred me to a specialist at the hospital for some sort of nerve scan/test that will check for built up pressure to pin point the area which is causing the problem. Anyone ever heard of this? Hopefully that will give me a better idea of what's going wrong.

[mctrials23]

Unfortunately GPs have a bad rep for a reason a lot of the time especially for sports related injuries or things that are not cut and dry illness. Hopefully the referral will yield some useful results.

I had quite a bad issue with my forearms and still do to a certain extent but I am pretty sure its just a strange case of tennis elbow that was left without treatment for too long. I took a few years off climbing and then went back into it quite seriously straight away and I think I went too fast.

I spent months treating it with tennis elbow related exercises to no avail and it was slowly getting worse. Some sessions I would get pumped early on and that would be it, I would have to end the session early because the pump just wouldn't leave the arm. Occasionally if I took it easy for about an hour and a half it would be ok and I could climb without issue but that was very rare and only if I built up to it super slowly.

I eventually went to the physio who seemed to think it was tennis elbow too and she spent 40 minutes massaging the outside of my forearm with a lot of malice. There was a mass of built up knotted muscle there that I assume was seriously restricting bloodflow and stopping my arms from draining properly.

I still have issues with this but its slowly recovering. My stamina is still rubbish and I get super pumped really quickly and don't recover anything like as quickly as others seem to but at least its not going numb all the time and staying pumped for hours after I have climbed.

Have a good feel around your forearms for any knots and lumps or areas of tenderness. If you find any, iron them out. I spend all day typing on a computer which is really bad for your forearms and elbows so I think that has also been a contributory factor.

[Evil]

I had a electrical impedance test after I dislocated my elbow, and had ulnar nerve problems (kind of similar to the carpal tunnel, but just a different squashed nerve I suppose). They send an electrical current through using electrodes, so it's like getting mild electric shocks in your arm. They found 'some impedance' but not significant to do anything much about. I get pins and needles/numbness sometimes in the outside of that hand, but doing the physio exercises I was given seems to help it.

[Giles F]

I've seen an article recently that describes your symptoms fairly accurately, it basically outlines that the thin, tough covering of the forearm muscles hasn't grown as quickly as the muscle fibres, this causes the symptoms you describe, as the blood flows into the muscles under use the muscle behind to swell, restricting further bloodflow and giving an extremely quick, hard and long lasting pump. If you're anywhere near Sheffield I can lend you the book with the article in, it's by Volker Schoffle, (sp)? Hope this helps, one way or another.

[mctrials23]

Whats the cure Giles?

[Giles F]

As I remember, in a worst case, surgery. There's a picture of the authors forearms, one of which has had the surgery and the difference is clear to see. I'll take another look tonight, as my interest has been piqued!
I'd like to point out that my medical training runs as far as a St John ambulance first aid course and a weekend at the climbing injuries symposium, I'm just giving the OP some ideas to take to his doctor!

[mctrials23]

Is the book called one move too many? I used to have that before lending it to a mate who was perpetually injured. I just remember that a lot of the stuff in it was pretty grim and graphical.