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Is a climbing coaching session a good idea? (Read 43895 times)

jfdm

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This in response to Nai,

I tried to get there early - but station closed so had to double back on myself so to about 10-15 minutes longer than normal - which would have given me about 20 minutes to warm up. London transport can be difficult if there is a problem!

The frustrating things was the technique coach would have been cheaper for me to do what I did yesterday. Rather than pay a supposed training coach to train my technique. If that makes sense?

rich d

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jfdm, sorry to read you had a disappointing session. For the future, bear in mind that for 60 Pounds a day you can come to my house, stay in my spare room, get training sessions at my board and if you do well also some free pizza for dinner...
 ;)
Nibile - Am I right in thinking that you live in Italy? I am getting married next week. For £60 a day might take you up on the offer. Sounds like the ideal honey moon destination!
letting your wife/partner watch an intense Italian doing one armers on small beastmaker holds.... Different definition of ideal honeymoon to most. ;)

Nibile

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 ;D
Sorry jfdm, your reply had slipped under the radar! First of all, congratulations and best wishes!
I live in Tuscany, Siena. If you happen to be around for your honeymoon, give me a shout on here!
I promise I won't tell your wife what you wrote here!  ;)

jfdm

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I had a group coaching session with about 50 other people for about an hour. It was free, it was more beneficial than the session I had yesterday, even though I was one of fifty.

What specifically was more beneficial?

What specifically were you looking for out of the 1 on 1 coaching?

Hi Sasquatch thanks for your message

What was beneficial - running should be a simple activity to do - put the average runner like a climber can get injured in lots of ways.
The session was about improving the running gait to prevent injury. Simple drills were demoed and then undertaken by the group, most were effective and were all ones to take home. The added positive was that it was free. the event was sponsored by Newton training shoes. The coach was an over 50's national record holder for 1500m think that he talked about breaking the over 50's world record? Something along those lines. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

With regards coaching - as I said I didn't know what to expect, was interested in the training side of climbing rather than technique - I made this clear in the original email exchanges. I know that dynamic movement was a weakness before the coaching session so it wasn't something I didn't already know.

I wanted somebody to point me in the right direction about training, not be rude, wanted them to encourage and be supportive if things needed to be changed some simple drills to correct things. Rather than abstract talk?

petejh

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Perhaps the best way to get better at physical training for climbing /increase your understanding of training (the aspect you say you want to improve) is not a coach but a training partner. Training requires relatively long periods spent experimenting with how your body responds to different training stimuli. Failing that (motivated training partners with similar goals can be hard to find), self-coaching with the help of the current literature - RCTM, SCC, 9 out of 10 etc. etc. is how a lot of climbers train.

Really the training exercises are all pretty basic and can easily be learned by reading the various literature and blogs written by various coaches. It's all just a matter of committing to a plan (any structured plan will lead to improvement as long as you stick with it) and seeing how you improve over say 6 -12 weeks depending on what aspect you hope to improve. As long as you work in the zone between doing too little - unlikely at the V4 level - and overdoing it/injuring yourself it's hard to fail to improve physically.

I think it's quite a big ask for a coach to cover much more than the absolute basics of physical training in a couple of hours and really you could learn most of the exercises without needing to pay someone. Identifying physical, technical and mental weaknesses and then looking at how these weaknesses and strengths help or hinder the achievement of your stated climbing goals (if you have any), then suggesting one or two methods of strengthening your main weaknesses is, I think, where coaching is most beneficial.

Me and a mate had a full day with Steve Mac in 2008. Split between two the cost was £100 each. The day lasted from 10 to around 5 or 6pm - a proper full day. Steve was really sharp at spotting our respective weaknesses - physical, technical and also some fear of falling going on, even though only slight. The next day he sent us both a fairly comprehensive email detailing our respective physical weaknesses and suggested a few basic exercises to target them; technique weaknesses or strengths, with tips on technical improvements and also suggested some stretches for tight hips to improve high front-on toe placement. One very simple concept which lots of people overlook - placing your foot where you feel you want to place it for a move, not where the obvious footholds are - very useful! Highly recommended.


jfdm

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;D
Sorry jfdm, your reply had slipped under the radar! First of all, congratulations and best wishes!
I live in Tuscany, Siena. If you happen to be around for your honeymoon, give me a shout on here!
I promise I won't tell your wife what you wrote here!  ;)

Fantastic - be sure to drop you a line if I am in the area! 

Nibile

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;D
Sorry jfdm, your reply had slipped under the radar! First of all, congratulations and best wishes!
I live in Tuscany, Siena. If you happen to be around for your honeymoon, give me a shout on here!
I promise I won't tell your wife what you wrote here!  ;)

Fantastic - be sure to drop you a line if I am in the area!

Brilliant!
Board climbing, tripes and liver and red wine.
What else could your wife want!
 :dance1:

jfdm

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Perhaps the best way to get better at physical training for climbing /increase your understanding of training (the aspect you say you want to improve) is not a coach but a training partner.

Really the training exercises are all pretty basic and can easily be learned by reading the various literature and blogs written by various coaches.

I think it's quite a big ask for a coach to cover much more than the absolute basics of physical training in a couple of hours and really you could learn most of the exercises without needing to pay someone.

Me and a mate had a full day with Steve Mac in 2008

Hi Pete thanks for your message,

Training partner would be brilliant - but climb on my own, not a member of a club.
I have reads lots of stuff on here, on the net, books etc. wanted somebody to say I was on the right track, or to change things, some simple drills to correct things. I know that gains are going to be slow, but wanted some support and encouragement.

Lucky you getting a days coaching with Steve m - must have been a great experience.

jfdm

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I didn't want to be too honest with my feedback incase he got the hump.
It may be that we didn't click? Sometimes with the best will in the world an all!

I think you should name and shame give constructive criticism.
So who was it?

Maybe we should start a coaching recommendations/ criticisms thread?

I don't know if naming and shaming would be a good idea.
If it was your lively hood would you want to be named and shamed?
Sometimes you just have a bad day at the office?
Coaching/climbing/teaching is/can be subjective?
I might not have felt like I had a good session yesterday.
But maybe you might click with the same coach?
It is difficult?
But definitely a list of coaching recommendations would be a great idea.

jfdm

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Coaching in climbing is relatively new. There has been a proliferation of late, clearly they aren't all equal.


Hopefully since Mountain Training have now become involved with the new Coaching Award it should become more 'professional'?

http://www.mountain-training.org/climbing/awards/coaching-scheme

Had a look at this last night - it would be good for climbers if something like this was set-up? At least then you would be sure of the competence of the coach.

As said in other threads - this doesn't mean that the coach would be one that you clicked with?

The other thing is that I wouldn't want it to be a money spinner scheme for whoever ran it?

A while ago in a scheme was set up for all qualified school teachers called the Generally Teaching Council. As a teacher you had to enrolled on it to teach, it was initially free, but then became a paid scheme -£100 per year - along those lines? It was literally money for old rope. A couple of years ago the scheme was scrapped and to my knowledge not replaced.

If people want train to be a coach brilliant, but should be done professionally rather than in adhoc fashion.

thekettle

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Jfdm, in answer to the following questions you had:
The other thing is what kind of training do coaches have?
Potentially no formal training, ask if you're unsure
Is there a nationally recognised programme for coach development?
There is (someone linked to it earlier), but it is only a year old, and the highest level of it (the 3rd tier 'Performance Coach') has not yet been launched
The BMC or some other organisation, that coaches could be affiliated to?
The BMC offer a series of coaching modules, no qualifications or affiliations, but they do employ national comp coaches who are often also available to recreational climbers, such as Tom Greenall in Sheffield.
If not anybody could set themselves up as a climbing coach?
Yes
Maybe I could set myself up as a coach?
you could - good luck!

You can probably see why the Coaching scheme has been set up but it'll be a couple more years before it becomes well established and works for the kind of coaching you're after. In the meantime I'd go by word of mouth, popularity, testimonials etc. There is also the Masterclass Academy coaching scheme (Gresh's baby) but again few folk have qualified as it's new and has London prices!

thekettle

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As said in other threads - this doesn't mean that the coach would be one that you clicked with?

The other thing is that I wouldn't want it to be a money spinner scheme for whoever ran it?



'clicking' with a coach is simply a sign that their soft skills are up to the job, good coaches don't leave it to chance whether they get on with their clients or not (with a few extreme exceptions!)

The coaching scheme isn't a money spinner (I'm a provider of the awards  :'(). For an aspirant coach there's a one-off £39 registration fee (for database, online logbook and all resources) then the qualification courses themselves cost an average of £60 per day to attend. No annual fees.

Oldmanmatt

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Surely, the fundamental flaw in this whole approach is the underlying assumption, that an hour ( or even 3) spent with a coach is going to have tangible effects upon your climbing?

This is not turning up at the gym and being shown how to operate the treadmill.

Coaching is something that takes time.

Something which requires the coach to build-up an understanding of the climber, the climbers personality, attitude, strengths and weaknesses (physical and otherwise), History and ambitions.

Anything else is just an induction course or brief critique.

It is Instruction, not Coaching.

What the OP really seemed to want was a "Master class" or a deconstruction of their training and ability.
Or at least, that would seem to me to be all that would be possible I the hour/hour and half allotted.
And that would require the climber to already have a plan in place.

kelvin

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jfdm, sorry to read you had a disappointing session. For the future, bear in mind that for 60 Pounds a day you can come to my house, stay in my spare room, get training sessions at my board and if you do well also some free pizza for dinner...
 ;)

Throw in some ice cream and I'll book the plane.

jfdm

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Thanks everybody, I will go away and reflect on everything that has been posted and try to act on it if I can, you have been very supportive.

I was trying to reply to all the posts but I was out today - and so my final posts might be a bit out of wack with the original posts - sorry about that.

I am open to more coaching but I think that I will be more careful about what the focus is for the session. If things go off track then maybe be more assertive with the coach.

My advice for anybody thinking about coaching and new to climbing - would be for the first session to be an initial assessment and take things from there? Rather than have some preconceived ideas?

The coach emailed me back today saying - that there wasn't really that much that he could add to the email I sent him summarising the session with him. Along the lines of my post yesterday but a bit more detailed. As I said he was thorough on technique.

He said if I stuck to dynamic movement my climbing would improve.
He stated my strength was good enough for the level I was climbing at.
He apologised for being "blunt" and said that he would video some of the next session!
He wished me good luck with my climbing!
If only he had been a bit more like this during the session!
He said to report back in a couple of months!

I was not expecting to overnight become a climbing superstar with a single coaching session. I completely understand that any technical changes can take months if not years to make the correct adaptions. Alongside periodic sessions with a coach. At least the session has given me a focus to work on which is a positive.

As we all know it is difficult to accept criticism at the best of times - particularly if it is delivered unprofessionally. That was part of the problem yesterday.

If I do work with a different coach I will search for the thread and repost and outline what went on and how I found it. Hoping it will be more positive.



« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 09:38:02 pm by jfdm »

kelvin

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You said you have no training partner and aren't part of a club - you could try posting in Power Club every week on here or even Fit Club on the other channel. It certainly helps to keep me focused and quite often have had some really good pointers as to where I'm going wrong... and bucketloads of encouragement too.

Just a thought.

jfdm

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Thanks Kelvin think I will try to in the future - I do read the power club posts.
Thanks for your advice!

Sasquatch

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Are there group training sessions available at any of the local places.  That may be better, more cost effective option, or see if you can put one together with a coach and get a few mates to join you. 

Good luck whatever you choose!  And ask away on the training section.  most of us are more than happy to pontificate on the latest and greatest (or old and classic) methods for training. :)

a dense loner

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The works in sheffield has nights were beginners etc will have an hour one night with an instructor trying crimpy problems, a night doing slopey problems etc. it's free, once or twice a wk, this always has a fair few people in the group. Some walls in London must do this, if they do maybe make the effort to go to one of them walls rather than another. Definitely worth some research I'd say

Ti_pin_man

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some interesting comments, good thread. 

Like yourself I wanted to improve, don't we all.  I paid for an expensive session of two hours with a 'superstar' coach, I thought I had explained well what I wanted in emails beforehand, like you I wanted an assessment that said what my biggest weaknesses were and a plan on how to work on these.  My expectations were wrong.  What I got was a coach for a single session.  Sure he pointed out a few things, saw me climb a little, gave me some feedback, but in a similar way I was, in hindsight, very disappointed.  But in truth I recognised later that I'd asked for the wrong thing. My bad.

What I had really wanted was a coach / mentor to work with me over a number of weeks to see my weaknesses and give me a written plan to follow to improve these.

About a year later I hooked up with one of the staff at my local wall and together drew up a plan, it was a 12 week plan with daily training, a hard regime.  It was focused on one aim, to get one climb at three grades up.  The idea was the general level of my climbing would move up and I would peak at my goal. 12 weeks Versus 3 grades.  Tough goal but I ticked the box, sure it was a route that suited me, but ticked.

So another year later and I decided I wanted to again move up a grade.  Sadly the guy had left to work elsewhere, shame, really good mentor.  But I talked to the junior team coach at my wall and we agreed a similar deal.  12 week plan.  It aint cheap but I get a beasting from her every second week which is ace, it gives me feedback each time on my weaknesses.  Shes also given me a day by day plan to work these and within 4 weeks I actually hit my goal.  I'm now aiming for more more more so again I've pushed over the plateau.

For me the key thing is to stop faffing and actually train, stop social climbing and get down to business.  I clearly need a day by day plan.  Real structure to the 12 weeks.  I also need feedback.  She helps by text, by email and by phone if needed between seeing her.  She wrote my plan and one of the best things is she considered the limitations of time I have in my life. 

Looking back at your posts you need something similar, a longer term coaching / a plan / a mentor to support.  If youre around London/south then ping me a message and I'll point you her way.  If not I think this is what you should look for locally.  Good luck fella.

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jfdm: Sounds like you had a pretty shit experience, which I'm sort of annoyed about even though it's nothing to do with me. Climbing and training should be fun, it should be enlightening, and it should use your brain as well as your body. The half an hour extra thing is f-ing ludicrous.

I'm in London 4 days a week so if you ever decide to do another "coaching" session let me know. I'm sure I can get someone on this thread to vouch that I know how to climb  :) I normally climb at the arch but open to others. I'm not promising miracles, but I'm willing to offer the session for free if you find it disappointing.

SA Chris

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That sounds like a good deal! I'm sure payment in the form of a pint (or a skinny latte) wouldn't go amiss!

cowboyhat

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I didn't want to be too honest with my feedback incase he got the hump.
It may be that we didn't click? Sometimes with the best will in the world an all!

I think you should name and shame give constructive criticism.
So who was it?

Maybe we should start a coaching recommendations/ criticisms thread?

I don't know if naming and shaming would be a good idea.
If it was your lively hood would you want to be named and shamed? I'd want to get better.


We have a debrief everyday at work. Along with appraisals twice a year etc, I reflect all the time how I can get better at my job, it pushes me forwards. The freelancer/ sole trading coach does not have this luxury.

Anyway you're being very diplomatic considering your experience. Perhaps at least alert them to this thread?

Uncles offer is very good because its free! I'm also London based, which wall do you train at?

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Thris thread has moved on a lot and I haven't read the lot, but I think there's a difference between 'training' and 'coaching': in my view coaching is about technique and to a lesser degree mindset, and training is about strength, power, stamina and so on.

My view is that strength & etc normally don't really kick in as material issues until you get to around 6c/7a


cowboyhat

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6c is not that hard anymore.

 

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