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Is a climbing coaching session a good idea? (Read 43881 times)

tomtom

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Just like Razzle. A penny a page :D

duncan

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I emailed Steve - he specialises in movement and technique.
...
I find movement/technique hard to self-assess and self-coach and I guess most are similar in this.  It's a facet of climbing I'd like external input on but I'd prefer this was done on rock rather than plastic. My perception is I climb somewhat differently on each and wonder how much carry-over there is in movement/technique from one to the other.

Once I have done the session with Szymon I  will repost here again and outline what went on - maybe it might be useful to somebody? Hopefully later on in the week?
I'd be interested to learn about your experiences.


Sloper

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From a coaching perspective I'd say it was much easier to coach on plastic (controlled environment and so on) and fewer alternative moves.

In respect of being self aware, I agree, it is very difficult to know what you do differently when you fail/succeed.  A coach watching you should be able to do this, for example if you turn your heel out  to 90 degrees or not, video evidence on an Ipad can really help.

A coach should also be able to explain center of gravity, how this interacts with other aspects of technique, movement and so on, think of heel / toe hooking on an arete, where you go it and the shape of your leg makes a massive difference and when you're on a problem you're not focusing on that in isolation whereas a coach can.

Nibile

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I'm guessing that's a London rate Nibs, rather than a UK one. It's more like £30 an hour round here...
Ahah, 30 Pounds is still more than double of what I get here for climbing courses!
But still, who would pay 30 quids to be put on a Beastmaker for ages?

jfdm

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Thanks for everybody's replies.

Had coaching session today - didn't know what to expect - left me feeling somewhat indifferent.

Pre session - sent email outlining strengths and weaknesses, level climbing up to v3 flash, max v4/5. Pointed out that I wanted a training session - so that could do things at wall plus stuff with beastmaster, kettle bells and gymnastic rings at home. Technique was not mentioned in the email.

Coach insisted that session was at a wall I had to pay an additional entry charge, didn't want to use my regular wall.

The coach was advertised as "good at training."

For added info - I was going to use a different coach at my wall but he wanted to concentrate on technique - a session was an hour. Decided that I wanted to do the training.

Outline of coaching session -

Warm-up: usual routine circles with arms, shoulders etc. then went up easy problem about V0. Then started to do small traverse - trying to use the biggest hand holds. Gone a few metres when the coach stopped me and said that what I was doing wasn't "bouldering specific" I should do easy problems - up and down.

Did a few of the easier ones. Up and down. 10-15 minutes max.

A bit of chat

Quite quickly this progressed to increasingly difficult problems.
Within 2-3 problems he picked up that I had "poor dynamic movement."
Think because I hadn't got warmed up properly?

We then spent the next 1 hour doing a number of dynamic problems initiating movement from feet, legs, core. He was quite thorough when coaching this.

About 10 minutes before 1 and a half hours was up - was asked about paying for an additional half-hour.

I said what was the point an extra half-hour wouldn't make a great deal difference.

Coach sn**gered a bit - suggested that I would need a lot more than half-hour to correct things.

Give him his due he then spent about 20 minutes showing me some things to do on the beastmaster/campus board. He said that I could handle footless campusing once a week for four weeks with one week off.

Ended me paying him the money, him saying s"end me an email outlining what we had done in the session." He would email back anything that I had missed out.

Overall was it worth the money - not really.

Will it be of use to me - yes it will.

Before anyone gets on their high horses - I have taught art for about 14 years in London. So know how to teach. If I was to run art lessons privately I'd probably be lucky to get £30-40 per hour.

I think that I was a bit underwhelmed - the first session should be advertised as a short initial assessment - introduction -1 hour max and you should be given a training programme to follow.

Future sessions should be either about technique or conditioning. Again max of hour.

Some video analysis should be done - none done today.

Training programme should be given at end of each session - not relying on client to do the donkey work.

What to do next - not to sure.
What have other peoples experiences been like?
At the end I felt deflated rather than inspired.
Sorry for the long post - but thought the detail might help.

thekettle

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An interesting summary there, thanks for posting it, and I'm sorry you've had a disappointing coaching session.  :(
A a coach myself it's always interesting to hear honest feedback from underwhelmed folk - there's a few things I'd flag up about what you've written (and I've got no idea who the coach was and don't wish to know):

Clearly the session content was not what you expected or asked for, so no matter how high quality it was you were understandably left wanting. This is the fundamental issue maybe?

The idea behind the coach asking you to write up your training plan and email it to them may be to help your retention of the learning, or it may be because they'd run out of time to sit down and do it with you!
At the end of your comment, some of your list of 4 'shoulds' I would tend to suggest are actually 'coulds' instead. For example many folk have no interest in video analysis and to shoehorn it into a 1 hour session could be wasting their time - while others love it! Likewise follow-up sessions can take any number of paths (not necessarily technique or conditioning), depending on the goals of the climber and their current weaknesses.

Finally I'd encourage you to offer the coach some constructive feedback when/if you send your proposed training plan to them, so they have the chance to act on it and improve as a coach.

a dense loner

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Why would a client send a coach a proposed training plan?

jfdm

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Thanks the kettle for your reply.

I know from teaching myself, that plans can change if problems are encountered.
Maybe the coach needed to be a bit more diplomatic and say look you need to work on technique rather than training - would you like to carry on? As a client then I have the option to consider this?

Writing a summary I didn't mind and you are right it is to do with retaining what went on in the session. But when teaching i am expected to plan a lesson before hand, explain things to a class, make sure everybody understands, practically demo, intervene when necessary, result should be positive outcomes for students, so that they feel enthused to do more. If target not met then things will be revisited.

I would expect something similar from a coach, some preparation or else what is the point in sending out an email identifying strengths and weaknesses? Before climbing I was a member of a gym and on good speaking terms with some of the personal trainers. Everything was measured and written down as the session was on going with their clients. Their clients had a programme to take away at the end of each session - normally an hour long.

With regard to video analysis - the key aim today was to develop dynamic movement, this is very difficult to describe using words far easier to see mistakes with a quick video on a mobile phone? This wouldn't have taken more than a couple of minutes? I wouldn't expect this from every session. But when undertaking movement coaching would have been invaluable today? Even when the coach demoed the movement it was difficult for me to feel where I was going wrong, if I was improving?

I didn't want to be too honest with my feedback incase he got the hump.
It may be that we didn't click? Sometimes with the best will in the world an all!


jfdm

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Why would a client send a coach a proposed training plan?
Exactly dense
I am not the expert here?
Thats what you pay a coach to do?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 09:07:20 pm by jfdm »

siderunner

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Interesting thread. As ever in climbing there's this dichotomy between physical conditioning and technique training.

I must admit I would be more interested in a *longterm* relationship with a coach who gave me a 6 week plan based on working my weaknesses as personal trainers usually do.

I suppose the point is that learning how to train properly would be more useful, potentially, than learning that I don't inside flag enough (or some other technical trickery).

Being told I'm a bit fat and a bit unfit and i need to pull my finger out to get better is some thing I wish I'd learned years ago ....

jfdm

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The other thing is what kind of training do coaches have?
Is there a nationally recognised programme for coach development?
The BMC or some other organisation, that coaches could be affiliated to?
If not anybody could set themselves up as a climbing coach?
Maybe I could set myself up as a coach?

a dense loner

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There's no point closing the stable door now the horse has bolted  ;) maybe you should have asked these questions first?
Some coaches are affiliated, I suppose some aren't. That doesn't mean the one that is is going to be good or the one that isn't is going to be bad. Tho I must say having a coach for one session is just bizarre, you're wanting to be coached you're not going to come out of the session with an elixir. That's not a go at you either jfdm

Sloper

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It sounds like you had a shit coach.

Most people will have some basic flaws in technique (mine is I'm fat and weak)  standing behind them watching should, for an experienced and able coach allow them to identify the weakness and explain them to the client, and show via a series of short video clips what they're doing poorly and then when they get it right.

Once the client understands one flaw they can go away and practice this on their own for review at the next session.

By and large technique should get you through problems up to 6a at least.

'Dynamic movement' is in many ways an excuse for poor technique on almost any problem other than dynos.  It sounds like your 'coach' has shit technique himself.

jfdm

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There's no point closing the stable door now the horse has bolted  ;) maybe you should have asked these questions first?
Tho I must say having a coach for one session is just bizarre, you're wanting to be coached you're not going to come out of the session with an elixir. That's not a go at you either jfdm

Thanks dense,

As newbie on the forum I was hoping that I would be advised to look for an affiliated coach.
It only occurred to me tonight. Like you say it won't make a good one though even if they are affiliated.

I wasn't thinking one session and I'd move v4/5 to v14 overnight. Know that things would be incremental and it might take a year or more before I move up to flashing v4 and regularly doing v5's. That I would go back periodically to a coach to help improve my bouldering.

London prices - couldn't afford every week without a euro lottery win?

jfdm

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It sounds like you had a shit coach.

Most people will have some basic flaws in technique (mine is I'm fat and weak)  standing behind them watching should, for an experienced and able coach allow them to identify the weakness and explain them to the client, and show via a series of short video clips what they're doing poorly and then when they get it right.

Once the client understands one flaw they can go away and practice this on their own for review at the next session.

It sounds like your 'coach' has shit technique himself.

Agree with most of what you said sloper.
Rather than spend an hour going over the same thing, better to move on.
Review things at the next session?
As for the coach - his climbing technique was good - very smooth,efficient, powerful.

Clart

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The other thing is what kind of training do coaches have?
Is there a nationally recognised programme for coach development?
The BMC or some other organisation, that coaches could be affiliated to?
If not anybody could set themselves up as a climbing coach?
Maybe I could set myself up as a coach?

This is the point isn't it. I've had running coaching by a qualified coach. I didn't pay for it as it happens and was part of a group. The coach was enthusiastic, gave an appropriate warm up and stretching period that was varied, knew what to look for in poor running technique, was able to offer reasons and solutions, gave targeted stretches in areas he observed as being 'tight'. All in all I felt confident in what he said and was enthused to improve. Sadly it seems that some people think that climbing at a reasonable grade qualifies them as a coach.

£60 is also a piss take. That's University lecturer salary and you need more then a couple of days coaching training to be able to do that.

In balance there are some very good climbing coaches out there but as climbing is such a complex and varied sport you need to be really clear on what you want. If you want someone to give you pointers on how to climb a problem then you're better off making friends with someone who climbs harder than you. If you have noticed a specific weakness (confidence, endurance, stamina, strength) then a coach can help you with these.

I've only ever paid for one climbing coaching sesh (although I would not be adverse to paying for another) and that was with The Dawes many years ago. We did not end up with a training plan or discuss finger board routines but did get totally inspired and had good time along the way, money well spent.

Sasquatch

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If you're looking for more of a physical training plan, may I suggest:

Team of 2 training - http://teamof2climbing.com/

They're not local but they are well respected coaches, and generally know thier stuff.

Otehrwise, pick up Gimme Craft, Self Coached Climber, 9 out 10, and Rock Climbers Training Manual and read them all.  Then look through all of the different traingn threads and the benchmarking survey and see how you fit, and you'll start to see your strenths/weaknesses from the physical side.  Then you can decide where to spend your time/money...

Nibile

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jfdm, sorry to read you had a disappointing session. For the future, bear in mind that for 60 Pounds a day you can come to my house, stay in my spare room, get training sessions at my board and if you do well also some free pizza for dinner...
 ;)

nai

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Sounds like the two of you have got your wires very crossed up. 

You went to Steve Golley knowing he was a movement specialist asking about conditioning and was recommended this guy as an alternative.  Only you end up having a movement session with him instead.  Did your initial approach state your requirements, where you had sourced him from and what you were hoping to achieve from the session?
I think the initial question I'd have asked re this guy is what does "good at training" mean?  Seems totally vague.  And I'd definitely have got their ahead of him to warm up and be ready to go, wouldn't want to be paying for that and feeling rushed to get on with things then climbing badly because you haven't had long enough.

I think I'd be very disappointed too if I was you but maybe it's a coaching thing, that they concentrate on technique ahead of physical conditioning so that clients don't get into bad habits early on which are harder to iron out at a later date?  If you teach someone to climb harder problems well then make them stronger it'll probably* make you a better climber long-term rather then doing it the other way around when they're more resistant to learning technique because they can just use strength to pull through stuff less efficiently.

While you save up for your next session I'd do what Sasquatch suggests and get hold of some of those books, SCC probably a good starting point.

*probably

cowboyhat

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I didn't want to be too honest with my feedback incase he got the hump.
It may be that we didn't click? Sometimes with the best will in the world an all!

I think you should name and shame give constructive criticism. Accepting it is relevant that you might not have 'clicked' and putting that aside:

Coaching in climbing is relatively new. There has been a proliferation of late, clearly they aren't all equal.

I have had training plans/ coaching myself and have also seen some really shocking so called coaching in the wall from more than one 'coach'. Obviously you can vote with your feet but that doesn't move anything forward.

The idea of someone sn**gering at you declining their offer to pay more sounds very unprofessional. Perhaps in his case it wasn't clearly set out what you were expecting from each other though from your posts I don't think that is true of yourself.

So who was it?

Maybe we should start a coaching recommendations/ criticisms thread?

T_B

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Coaching in climbing is relatively new. There has been a proliferation of late, clearly they aren't all equal.


Hopefully since Mountain Training have now become involved with the new Coaching Award it should become more 'professional'?

http://www.mountain-training.org/climbing/awards/coaching-scheme


jfdm

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This is in response to Clarts

I had a group coached running session with about 50 other people for about an hour a while ago. It was free, it was more beneficial than the session I had yesterday, even though I was one of fifty. And was enthused to do more.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 06:48:42 pm by jfdm »

jfdm

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If you're looking for more of a physical training plan, may I suggest:

Team of 2 training

They're not local but they are well respected coaches, and generally know thier stuff.

Otehrwise, pick up Gimme Craft, Self Coached Climber, 9 out 10, and Rock Climbers Training Manual and read them all. 

Some great advice here - team of 2 look brilliant but I would have to go Colorado for training session! Which would work out more than a £ a minute. But had a look at website and they do online coaching.

The books - have quite a few of those you recommend. Just thought that paying a coach might give me some new insights? Or at least say that I am on the right track.

Sasquatch

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I had a group coaching session with about 50 other people for about an hour. It was free, it was more beneficial than the session I had yesterday, even though I was one of fifty.

What specifically was more beneficial?

What specifically were you looking for out of the 1 on 1 coaching?  Were you hoping to get a 6 week training plan?  Some exercises to do to address weaknesses?  An assessment?

Knowing exactly what you want can be helpful.  Also being open to whatever was being communicated is critical, but hard for most people.  A really good coach can communicate this, but for most people this is hard. 

I've got a friend who did the team of 2 online training, but didn't get quite what he wanted out of it.  He thought they were good coaches, and definitely helped him.  He thought the video analysis they did was VERY good, and was really impressed with Justin.  Not as much with Kris.  The "training" plan was not really suited for him. 

jfdm

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jfdm, sorry to read you had a disappointing session. For the future, bear in mind that for 60 Pounds a day you can come to my house, stay in my spare room, get training sessions at my board and if you do well also some free pizza for dinner...
 ;)
Nibile - Am I right in thinking that you live in Italy? I am getting married next week. For £60 a day might take you up on the offer. Sounds like the ideal honey moon destination!

 

 

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