UKBouldering.com

Is a climbing coaching session a good idea? (Read 43914 times)

SEDur

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Edam Tarquin
  • Posts: 255
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • The future
Disclaimer: this may sound like a personal attack, but i promise you it isnt. I may have missed posts where you addressed things i am about to mention. If so, flame me all you want.

If you really want a training plan purely for exercises that will either get you strong or tear you apart, find zippy.

Although I don't want to second guess yourself or the coach(es) you have hired, maybe a 'get massive or die trying' training programme (which is what it sound like you are looking for) isn't what you need because you aren't ready for it.

Throughout this thread (and maybe I just skipped the post, if so I accept the flame), I haven't seen you once explicitly analyse or critically asses your goals or why you (really) want to start training.

Plus having been an art teacher for 14 years, you must closer to your mid 30s than most would like I.e. may take longer for you to adapt into a training pattern. I can only assume you havent been climbing (properly) as long as you have been teaching art. It may just be you need to take a step back and re-assess what you think you need, and what you actually need.

Also, all coaches I know will always try and book a number of sessions, with session one being an assessment. As I think someone pointed to earlier, I don't think you understand what training is and why you really want to do it. That may be the best place to start.

jfdm

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 496
  • Karma: +20/-3
Disclaimer: this may sound like a personal attack, but i promise you it isnt.

 I haven't seen you once explicitly analyse or critically asses your goals or why you (really) want to start training.

Plus having been an art teacher for 14 years, you must closer to your mid 30s than most would like I.e. may take longer for you to adapt into a training pattern. I can only assume you havent been climbing (properly) as long as you have been teaching art. It may just be you need to take a step back and re-assess what you think you need, and what you actually need.

Also, all coaches I know will always try and book a number of sessions, with session one being an assessment. As I think someone pointed to earlier, I don't think you understand what training is and why you really want to do it. That may be the best place to start.

Most people have been very supportive on the thread.

To answer some of your points

1. Don't know who "zippy" is?

2. What is the point in trying to break myself through training?
I wanted the coach/training to show me things that would complement what I do at home and at the wall to make my climbing better. Not to hurt myself within a week or two and then not be able to go climbing or make progress.

3. You say that I am closer to mid 30's "than most would like." I am not sure what you mean? I am older - 38 two weeks ago. I have not sat on my backside over the years away from climbing. I have always been interested in keeping fit - so been round the block, gym,running etc. For my age I would say I am in decent physical condition. So a good base level?

No I haven't been climbing as long as my teaching which is correct.
In my posts I have stated that any progress/adaptation may take longer due to my age.
When I first started climbing over 20 years ago - I loved it for what it is and still do.
A great activity for the mind and body, being outdoors, having a laugh, meeting people etc.
When I moved to London 15 years ago facilities where not as easy to get to as it is now. Even so a trip to the wall is 45 mins each way every time I go.

4. My goal although ambiguous is to move up the V scale and just continue to make progress - at the moment I can regularly climb v3/4 having got back into climbing about 18 months ago - I'm pleased with the progress I have made. Want to now push on to v4/5 if I can.

5. With regards block booking a coach - great if you know the coach. And would be a good idea. But the coach this week was unprofessional towards me - block booking wouldn't be the way forward here. Also at a £ a minute I would be broke if I block booked.

There's been loads of great advice on the tread and I will try and act on it!
There's plenty for me to reflect on.

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20282
  • Karma: +641/-11
For me coaching is something I would consider if I plateau'd - reached a point where I didnt seem to be progressing... But as long as I climb enough times a week - I have seen steady improvement. Both in technique and strength.. (odd set backs for injury/working away not withstanding..)

I guess a coach can point out certain things - but if you climb with a group of people they'll often point things out as well... Especially if you are working a problem with a group of similar grade climbers you learn from different ways of approaching a problem, trying things, micro beta stuff like that...

Of course for some things you do just need to get stronger - or have better finger strength if your aims contain gnarly small holds - and there isn't a short cut for that.. just time, training and effort.

All this (I suppose) comes down to your (by your I mean ones etc..) motivation. For me it is seeing some form of progression over time - and I'm happy trotting up through the grades - and consolidating on grades that used to be at my limit. If your aim is to get to 8A in 5 years (etc...) then some form of more structured training - maybe coaching - is part of a solution to that, to try and speed things up.

Just my musings...

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5780
  • Karma: +622/-36
I'd take on board what posters are saying about having specific goals.

Quote
4. My goal although ambiguous is to move up the V scale and just continue to make progress - at the moment I can regularly climb v3/4 having got back into climbing about 18 months ago - I'm pleased with the progress I have made. Want to now push on to v4/5 if I can.
Like you say it's an ambiguous goal - there's nothing at all wrong with it but it doesn't really require coaching or give any coach much to focus on. I imagine it would be a tough ask for any coach to do much more than give you generic advice which tbh you could get from articles and partners. They could give you a list of exercises with a weekly plan but I doubt you'd benefit from that as much as from just climbing.

A desire to climb and a bit of time spent climbing, especially with better climbers (just watching them works) and you'll progress. A bit of simple fingerboarding if you think your finger strength is going to hold you back, a bit of campussing when you feel you've not enough power.

You say you've progressed to v4. What factors are stopping you climb v5 at the moment?
(meter's running)

csl

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 786
  • Karma: +93/-2
@jfdm

1. Don't know who "zippy" is?

http://www.markpretty.co.uk/

siderunner

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • more of a route-climber than boulderer, but hey
Interesting thread.

Petejh wrote "what factors are stopping you climb v5 at the moment?"

It seems to me that is THE question a coach should be helping you answer. For most it'll be an unpleasant answer, since it's probably something we shy away from, dislike, and rarely practise.

I think the downside to writing someone a programme without focussing on these weaknesses is they'll surely do more of what they're already good at and so like, thus the relative weakness gets worse not better.

2 areas that I have identified and made good grade progress by addressing are overly static movement and fear of falling (still ways to go). My pathetic crimp strength is my current focus - god I hate crimps!  - and hopefully also my best opportunity for quick-ish improvement. In each case it's been a multi year effort to really face up to the thing rather than doing other stuff I prefer.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that a good coach should have uncomfortable messages. Of course they need the people skills to manage that! Your guy obviously didn't.

Paul B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 9626
  • Karma: +264/-4
JDFM - Do you mind me asking how much you paid for your session (I may have missed this)? It's hard to asses whether or not you're justifiably underwhelmed without this information.

I believe the BMC now have a course which people can take that aims to help people learn how to coach/teach climbing. Knowing a few people who've been on this, they were skeptical at first but afterwards they were pleasantly surprised. Offwidth has confirmed this course isn't just in my mind.

Firstly I'd have thought about what you feel might be your weaknesses (ask a few friends to be frank) and then picked a coach that fits your needs based upon that (and feedback).

For instance if it was movement related (I'm in Sheffield) I'd speak to someone such as Rob Napier. If I was looking to get euro fit (I'd just hassle Barrows as I do) I'd consider Tommy. However, I'd imagine these would be very different prices, one is a session (of x number), the other is based upon a deliverable (and possible contact throughout the programme). Unless you're making very fundamental, basic movement errors I struggle to see how an hour or so can contain much useful information.

...I can't begin to imagine how much a pro coach might charge for the likes of someone looking for Shauna type coaching (the only person (or maybe there are two?) I know use a Spanish coach).

Remember, not all coaches are equal, I've heard some truly awful advice coming from a number of coaches. I'd look for someone specifically good at training others, rather than good at training themselves.

One good thing about training in Sheffield (IMO) is that I can ask a range of people what my weaknesses are and I'd get an honest (and informed) appraisal. It's far too easy to stick your head in the sand and keep chasing POWER etc. Maybe Uncle and Cowboyhat could do this for free. You can climb and they can hurl abuse at you (this is akin to a busy night on the wave).  ;)

You mention private trainers and programmes written at the Gym. Having been a member at various establishments of this type I'd say they're likely very unspecific and barely worth the paper they're written on. As part of joining one gym I had to take an induction and the trainer wouldn't listen when I said leg press wasn't too relevant to my goals. Obviously some PTs are great and massively informed, a lot are not.

Duma

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5751
  • Karma: +226/-4
Think he said it was a pound a minute for am hour and a half?

jfdm

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 496
  • Karma: +20/-3
Interesting thread.

Petejh wrote "what factors are stopping you climbing v5."

It seems to me that is THE question a coach should be helping you answer. For most it'll be an unpleasant answer, since it's probably something we shy away from, dislike, and rarely practise.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that a good coach should have uncomfortable messages. Of course they need the people skills to manage that! Your guy obviously didn't.

Hi Pete ,

As I have said throughout the thread, I climb on my own.
So thought having a coaching session, would help me identify weakness and give me some drills and exercises to do. I knew my dynamic movement wasn't up to scratch, I'd emailed the coach before hand about this.

I was expecting some "uncomfortable messages."
Criticism is fine as long as it is constructive, the "coach" offered me nothing more than "initiate movement through feet, legs and core rather than arms shoulders."

I was expecting a little more than that, a bit more insight.
Some methods to correct the problem?

jfdm

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 496
  • Karma: +20/-3
For me coaching is something I would consider if I plateau'd - reached a point where I didnt seem to be progressing... But as long as I climb enough times a week - I have seen steady improvement. Both in technique and strength.. (odd set backs for injury/working away not withstanding..)

I guess a coach can point out certain things - but if you climb with a group of people they'll often point things out as well... Especially if you are working a problem with a group of similar grade climbers you learn from different ways of approaching a problem, trying things, micro beta stuff like that...

Of course for some things you do just need to get stronger - or have better finger strength if your aims contain gnarly small holds - and there isn't a short cut for that.. just time, training and effort.

All this (I suppose) comes down to your (by your I mean ones etc..) motivation. For me it is seeing some form of progression over time - and I'm happy trotting up through the grades - and consolidating on grades that used to be at my limit. If your aim is to get to 8A in 5 years (etc...) then some form of more structured training - maybe coaching - is part of a solution to that, to try and speed things up.

Just my musings...

Thanks TomTom,
Some good advice, at the end of the day it all depends on the amount of effort you put in. If you put in the time and effort your climbing should improve, regardless of the coaching input.

jfdm

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 496
  • Karma: +20/-3
I'd take on board what posters are saying about having specific goals.

Quote
4. My goal although ambiguous is to move up the V scale and just continue to make progress - at the moment I can regularly climb v3/4 having got back into climbing about 18 months ago - I'm pleased with the progress I have made. Want to now push on to v4/5 if I can.

A desire to climb and a bit of time spent climbing, especially with better climbers (just watching them works) and you'll progress. A bit of simple fingerboarding if you think your finger strength is going to hold you back, a bit of campussing when you feel you've not enough power.

You say you've progressed to v4. What factors are stopping you climb v5 at the moment?
(meter's running)

Thanks Pete,

Some good advice again, I think everybody is saying the same thing.
Keep climbing and the improvements should happen.
Rather than looking for the magic bullet?

What's holding me back, the following are weakness, with some possible solutions, moving dynamically between well spaced holds - climb more steep problems, slopers - work on grip strength/contact strength - climb more sloper problems, physically fingers could be stronger - fingerboard/campus, need to engage core when climbing - steep climbing/core exercises, flexibility in legs/hips - yoga.


abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
As I have said throughout the thread, I climb on my own.
So thought having a coaching session, would help me identify weakness and give me some drills and exercises to do. I knew my dynamic movement wasn't up to scratch, I'd emailed the coach before hand about this.

I thought your chief criticism through most of the thread was that you wanted to spend the time talking about training and not technique? If you'd already talked to them about being bad at dynamic movement why would you be surprised if they spent a bunch of time on that?
I don't know you, but I'd guess that time with a coach would be better spent on technique rather than training for 90% of people in your position - I'd be tempted to go for a movement orientated coach if you have another session..

jfdm

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 496
  • Karma: +20/-3
As I have said throughout the thread, I climb on my own.
So thought having a coaching session, would help me identify weakness and give me some drills and exercises to do. I knew my dynamic movement wasn't up to scratch, I'd emailed the coach before hand about this.

I thought your chief criticism through most of the thread was that you wanted to spend the time talking about training and not technique? If you'd already talked to them about being bad at dynamic movement why would you be surprised if they spent a bunch of time on that?
I don't know you, but I'd guess that time with a coach would be better spent on technique rather than training for 90% of people in your position - I'd be tempted to go for a movement orientated coach if you have another session..

In hindsight I totally agree with you.
I would say to anybody thinking about coaching/training is initially have an assessment by the coach/trainer and take it from there. Be open minded about things.

I can only climb at the weekends so thought a coach could work out a plan of action to help me train at home. That is why I thought it better to focus on training.
At a later date get a session focusing on technique.

As you said the coach focused on technique but I felt he was of little help.

jfdm

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 496
  • Karma: +20/-3
JDFM - Do you mind me asking how much you paid for your session (I may have missed this)? It's hard to asses whether or not you're justifiably underwhelmed without this information.

Remember, not all coaches are equal, I've heard some truly awful advice coming from a number of coaches. I'd look for someone specifically good at training others, rather than good at training themselves.

You mention private trainers and programmes written at the Gym. Having been a member at various establishments of this type I'd say they're likely very unspecific and barely worth the paper they're written on. As part of joining one gym I had to take an induction and the trainer wouldn't listen when I said leg press wasn't too relevant to my goals. Obviously some PTs are great and massively informed, a lot are not.

Some good advice Paul, thanks.

To answer some of your points - £90 for an hour and a half.

You are right about not all coaches are equal, I am sure that there are more insightful ones than the coach I used.

With regards trainers at the gym, yes they give out generic programmes but at least they give you something to work with. I outlined in my emails to the coach that I wanted from him some kind of programme to follow at home and down the wall. I didn't get even a generic programme, the advice boiled down to climb as often as possible particularly on steep problems.

jfdm

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 496
  • Karma: +20/-3
As I have said throughout thank you for all the helpful comments.
I will for the time being keep climbing and focus on my weakness as much as possible. Try to be a bit more selective in the types of problems I tackle.

I am leaning towards being a bit more organised and maybe keeping a training diary.
Training plans at home can be photocopied and stuck into the diary -other things could be added to the diary, work undertaken at wall etc- don't know if others do this?

The idea is that if I kept things up to date could have a good record of progress.

With regards coaching, thinking about working with another coach around Christmas/New Year. Hopefully this time I find the experience more beneficial.

Happy climbing  :2thumbsup:

Paul B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 9626
  • Karma: +264/-4
With regards trainers at the gym, yes they give out generic programmes but at least they give you something to work with. I outlined in my emails to the coach that I wanted from him some kind of programme to follow at home and down the wall. I didn't get even a generic programme, the advice boiled down to climb as often as possible particularly on steep problems.

You were obviously looking for something more specific, but maybe that's the correct answer? I'm not saying it is, but maybe consider the fact it could be.

If you're fundamentally lacking movement skills and dynamic movements I don't see the above as terrible advice.

/2p

duncan

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2952
  • Karma: +332/-2
Interesting discussion, a reflection of the evolving position of coaching in UK climbing. Thank you for being so open about your experiences. I'm hoping the coach will read this and, once his ire has subsided, will reflect on his handling of the session.

There has been a misunderstanding of expectations. Differing views on what is likely to be of most benefit to the client must be very common but it’s up to the coach to communicate and negotiate which doesn’t seem to have happened very well here.

I’ve observed coaching at the London walls I frequent. Some of it seems quite dubious - but I am rather opinionated about such things despite being a punter. I've no idea what standards are like elsewhere but it’s not hard to imagine the competition is greater and clientele better informed.

There seem several linked ways a coach could help: 1. Assessment of client’s strengths and weaknesses in movement, the physical stuff, and psychology. 2. Help with goal-setting. 3. Teaching movement, prescribing training regimes, working on mental skills and adapting/progressing all three as the client improves (or not), and 4. Providing syke and encouragement.

You wanted 3. - specifically the training regime bit - and some 4. Your coach presumably felt he had to assess you first, after which he felt you’d benefit more from working on your movement skills. He might be right but there was a communication breakdown at that point.

From casual observation, many folk operating at <F7a (and plenty above) would benefit most from improving movement fluency and mental skills. If you asked them they would probably tell you they were most lacking in strength, fitness or flexibility. I don’t know if you fit this profile but you’d be with plenty of others if you did. If you just want a training programme, this book will provide it, no need for a coach. As I hinted at in this review, it doesn't address the moment and psychological issues that are (IMO) greatest limits to folk at your/my level. The Self-Coached Climber is much better in this respect.

My 2p? Like SEDur and others, I think you need to think more about your goals and be open about what is most likely to help you achieve them. From your writing you’re moving in that direction. Good luck!

mindfull

Offline
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 174
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • Blog
1. For that price, the first 20 minutes of real conversation should be free.
2. The trainee should be able to ask what he wants from the trainer and the trainer should be able to provide wh
at he tries to deliver.

I cannot say more about this.
What if ... ???

You want something, he wants to deliver for money.

If you did not read all threads on training here, the free Anderson book, and all these free resources on the net, some good, some bad, or cannot comprehend it ... you need a trainer 24/7 ... or a nurse if you are geriatric.

If you did, and you climb only in the weekends, you might get good progress from consulting multiple sources (also trainers).

But so much variables? I'm even maxin out on my pullup reps without advice ...

Lots of dots whatever :-) Good luck and have fun!

Paul B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 9626
  • Karma: +264/-4
If you're looking for more of a physical training plan, may I suggest:

Team of 2 training - http://teamof2climbing.com/

They're not local but they are well respected coaches, and generally know thier stuff.


At the wall the other day a few people were gawping at videos of Pooch executing various impressive feats of strength but I have to say I had a bit of a giggle to myself. The commentary pretty much said "glad team of 2 are here to push me to do things I don't want to do and improve my climbing" (heavily paraphrased). Wheras the video appeared to me (and the rest of their media profile if I'm honest) of pretty much pure physical training, clearly in this instance (and certainly mine too) not a particular area of weakness.

Matt002

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is a climbing coaching session a good idea?

In my opinion, and for all but complete beginners, no.

The Andersons latest book is cheaper and if followed to the letter even with little understanding of why, will still yeild steady and continious improvements in the physical aspects of climbing.

For movement skills, go to the local wall bouldering area, be sociable and attempt problems with others especially those climbing harder/better than you.  Monkey see. monkey do.  Cost:free.


SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
The Andersons latest book is cheaper and if followed to the letter even with little understanding of why, will still yeild steady and continious improvements in the physical aspects of climbing.

Has Dense written a book?

a dense loner

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 7165
  • Karma: +388/-28
I always wonder when I read posts like this, I can't remember writing a damn book! Is the Alzheimer's kicking in?

Muenchener

Offline
  • *****
  • Trusted Users
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2692
  • Karma: +117/-0
At the wall the other day a few people were gawping at videos of Pooch

Understandable, unsurprising. Personally I'd be more likely to gawp at videos of Melissa Le Neve or Jule Wurm, but either way it wouldn't have much to do with training.

Nibile

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 7991
  • Karma: +743/-4
  • Part Animal Part Machine
    • TOTOLORE
Completely off topic, I second Mr. Muench.
Alex is surely nice, but I find it hard to be attracted by a girl whose shoulders and lats could shelter a small house from a tornado.
Maybe it's just me...  :shrug:

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5780
  • Karma: +622/-36
I always wonder when I read posts like this, I can't remember writing a damn book! Is the Alzheimer's kicking in?
You could just write one sentence duplicated on each of 400 pages of 'Lee Anderson's manual of training for rock climbing': 'buy the other Anderson's training book'. The quote below would then still be correct.

Quote
The Andersons latest book is cheaper and if followed to the letter even with little understanding of why, will still yeild steady and continious improvements in the physical aspects of climbing.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal