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Pygmalion- How a greek myth effects british sports climbing standards (Read 49436 times)

Fiend

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The more I think about it and read the responses, the more obvious it is how important and not total bollocks the weather / rock issue is. We have, what, 5 or 6 good crags for good hard sport climbing - say, Kilnsey, Malham, Raven Tor, LPT and in theory The Diamond. Out of those, one merely seeps, two both seep and become unfeasibly hot in the sun, one is merely tidal and conditionsy, and the other is tidal, conditionsy, bird-banned and needs a boat to get to. Then being in North Wales / Peninnes, well it rains a fuck of a lot there. And if it doesn't, as JohnM says, it's humid and the fiddly tricky small holds rock sucks. Maybe if we had a load of roadside round-the-compass sport crags on the East Coast of the UK....but we don't.

Sure you can point to some wunderkid from somewhere as awkward to excel in, and hey we have our own wunderkid / wunderelderstatesman too - but they're very much the exception rather than the rule.

Sure getting abroad to have a much better choice of rock and good conditions is relatively easy....but not nearly as bloody easy as having it on your doorstep, because, well, it requires getting abroad, organising flights free time partners accomodation etc etc. Not quite the same as living in Barca and rocking up the La Rambla each weekend. You could live in Sheffield and rock up to Overshadow each weekend and I'd hazard a very vague guess that it won't be in condition quite as much.

What does all this bloody obviousness mean? Nothing to contradict GME's main point about low expectations, but it is another clear factor (not an excuse) that should be taken into account. As a sport climber trying to push the limits in this country, objective issues (routes/rain - too few/too much) make it much harder than many places abroad. WRT this debate maybe the question is how can people deal with / avoid that?? (In perhaps more interesting ways than the Catalunya commute...)

gme

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Thanks Kelvin, you kind of answered the question for me.

I will add a bit to it with the comment that how is it any harder for UK climbers than any other country. Obviously if you live in the hot spots you dont have to travel but somehow it costs more money to be at home and the reason we used to go away for long periods was it was cheaper.

You could spend a month camped below ceuse for the price of an iphone and i am not talking about properly roughing it. £6 camping fees, £10 per day for food and an easy jet flight. Only needs a little bit of hitching and your done. If you have not done your project in 4-6 weeks you probably need to come home and train a bit more anyway, Ondra kind of back this up on Dura Dura.

Johnny Brown

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we have 9 or 10 people that have broken into the 9th grade, more comparable to Poland, Canada, japan and Switzerland than to the big boys.

I'm not following here. Why would we be up with 'the big boys'?  You've chosen four countries with vastly different populations, climbing and climbing culture. I don't know enough about Japan other than their population is twice ours, but competing with the other three would seem to be more like something to celebrate?

Seems like the main problem here is that Gav spent his formative years with Ben and Jerry, during an anomalous time when the UK punched far above it weight in sport climbing. What happened to their hotpot effect eh? And yet we've had world class climbers in other disciplines since. Again, something to celebrate for me.

Stu Littlefair

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The more I think about it and read the responses, the more obvious it is how important and not total bollocks the weather / rock issue is.

Fiend - I hate to make arguments by authority, but you should maybe listen to people who've tried to climb hard sport in the UK and Europe. For the Peak and Yorkshire crags there are days all year round where conditions are excellent. Even in a soaking wet summer the 9a aspirant is guaranteed some primo days on dry holds on Rainshadow. You could make a moany list like the one you wrote about almost every major crag in France or Spain. It's been said in the thread above that Spain and France have loads of good mid-summer options. They have a few, but even there conditions can be highly non-optimal. Flatanger is becoming such an awesome summer destination because the rock is amazing, and because there are very few places in continental Europe that allow hard climbing insummer. 

There's a potential issue with the lack of choice in the UK - if you want to climb 9a in this country you don't have a lot of options, so if they don't suit you, you're buggered. And Gav - it's not 'bollocks' to say this makes a difference. It's all very well to say "Go abroad and climb hard then". Obviously, not everyone is free to spend weeks abroad trying hard routes. If you've got a wide range of >9a routes on your back door then people like me with busy jobs can try them. This means more people with the potential to reach the top grades. QED.

Gav seems a bit obsessed that there can only be one answer to the question. It's quite likely that everything mentioned in this thread (including self-limitation) has made a difference to a greater or lesser extent.

kelvin

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I've tried climbing in Suirana in September... dear god, it was far too hot.

With some financial shrewdness, flights abroad can be had for free. If you have a mortgage, pay that on a credit card that gives air miles or something like. I have a Natwest Your Points card and have started using it for materials at work. It's not much but I've got to buy the materials anyway and the customer has to pay for them... result? I have £130 of points after a year or so. Enough for a flight to Barcelona  ;D

I've spent no extra and I have a flight to sunshine and Spanish rock. I know for those that are work focused that time can still be an issue but funding trips abroad needn't cost anymore for someone like me who has to travel two hours to the Peak anyway.

(*having said this, I'll be spending lots of this winter kipping in a 12yr old Berlingo chasing good grit days)

« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 01:32:58 pm by kelvin »

Bonjoy

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Assuming you don't believe in some sort of UK exceptionalism, it would be surprising if the UK were to have the best sport climbers in the world on a regular basis. The world climbing population is large, only a small proportion of them are from the UK. Do the mathS. Is it really any more complicated than that?
The other factors even themselves out to a large extent, all countries have their pros and cons, the UK is probably one of the better countries of the world to be a sport climber in (all things considered), but it's no France/Spain.

gme

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we have 9 or 10 people that have broken into the 9th grade, more comparable to Poland, Canada, japan and Switzerland than to the big boys.

I'm not following here. Why would we be up with 'the big boys'?  You've chosen four countries with vastly different populations, climbing and climbing culture. I don't know enough about Japan other than their population is twice ours, but competing with the other three would seem to be more like something to celebrate?

Seems like the main problem here is that Gav spent his formative years with Ben and Jerry, during an anomalous time when the UK punched far above it weight in sport climbing. What happened to their hotpot effect eh? And yet we've had world class climbers in other disciplines since. Again, something to celebrate for me.

Well thanks for quite the most negative point i have heard in quite some time. We were lucky back in the 80s and punched way above our weight. Pretty much sums it up really. I suppose i kind of expect it from you though as you profess to not really have an interest.

re the country thing we have a population similar or bigger to the "big boys" and climbing population probably similar (excluding france) with a long history with climbing so why shouldnt we.

And please tell me of the world class climbers we have in other disciplines. Do you mean world class as in something people do around the world that we are good at or more the world series type of thing that gritstone is. I presume its something to do with big walls or mountains which i will be the first to admit i know little about. But if it is pray tell how we are so good at them when we don't have any on our shores and have to travel so far in order to do them.

Fiend

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Fair enough Stu. In that case can the people who've tried to climb hard sport in the UK and Europe confirm how often their UK 9a-and-upwards projects are in climbable (or workable, even if it's too warm to send) condition compared to their 9a-and-upwards projects abroad, throughout the year overall??

Stu Littlefair

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With some financial shrewdness, flights can be had for free. If you have a mortgage, pay that on a credit crad that gives air miles or something like. I have a Natwest Your Points card and have started using it for materials at work. It's not much but I've got to buy the materials anyway and the customer has to pay for them... result? I have £130 of points after a year or so. Enough for a flight to Barcelona  ;D

This is not going to get you up 9a, but anyway it's got nothing to do with money. I've got enough money to fly to Spain every weekend this year if I choose to spend all my savings doing so. I, and many others in the same position, don't have the time to do this. I can spend every weekend at Malham.

I had a post all written about stats, but Bonjoy said it better than I can. We're doing OK in the UK. However, this is a reasonably recent thing. Five years ago things would have looked very different. My personal opinion is that it's because people have started training differently, and because Gav has a point and a few people climbing hard makes it easier for others to do the same

Stu Littlefair

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Well thanks for quite the most negative point i have heard in quite some time. We were lucky back in the 80s and punched way above our weight. Pretty much sums it up really. I suppose i kind of expect it from you though as you profess to not really have an interest.

re the country thing we have a population similar or bigger to the "big boys" and climbing population probably similar (excluding france) with a long history with climbing so why shouldnt we.

Well, you've been given a whole thread full of reasons, but you're only interested in one of them. It's a perfectly good reason, but not the only one

gme

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The more I think about it and read the responses, the more obvious it is how important and not total bollocks the weather / rock issue is.

Fiend - I hate to make arguments by authority, but you should maybe listen to people who've tried to climb hard sport in the UK and Europe. For the Peak and Yorkshire crags there are days all year round where conditions are excellent. Even in a soaking wet summer the 9a aspirant is guaranteed some primo days on dry holds on Rainshadow. You could make a moany list like the one you wrote about almost every major crag in France or Spain. It's been said in the thread above that Spain and France have loads of good mid-summer options. They have a few, but even there conditions can be highly non-optimal. Flatanger is becoming such an awesome summer destination because the rock is amazing, and because there are very few places in continental Europe that allow hard climbing insummer. 

There's a potential issue with the lack of choice in the UK - if you want to climb 9a in this country you don't have a lot of options, so if they don't suit you, you're buggered. And Gav - it's not 'bollocks' to say this makes a difference. It's all very well to say "Go abroad and climb hard then". Obviously, not everyone is free to spend weeks abroad trying hard routes. If you've got a wide range of >9a routes on your back door then people like me with busy jobs can try them. This means more people with the potential to reach the top grades. QED.

Gav seems a bit obsessed that there can only be one answer to the question. It's quite likely that everything mentioned in this thread (including self-limitation) has made a difference to a greater or lesser extent.

Stu- i am guilty of thinking about the younger generation here which is what the initial thread was about. Obviously travel becomes harder as we get older and tie our selves down with the trappings of life. if your in your late teens early 20s and want to climb the hardest routes there should be no reason why you cant find the time.
You do seem to manage ok though, and get a good few hard routes done abroad.

gme

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Well thanks for quite the most negative point i have heard in quite some time. We were lucky back in the 80s and punched way above our weight. Pretty much sums it up really. I suppose i kind of expect it from you though as you profess to not really have an interest.

re the country thing we have a population similar or bigger to the "big boys" and climbing population probably similar (excluding france) with a long history with climbing so why shouldnt we.

Well, you've been given a whole thread full of reasons, but you're only interested in one of them. It's a perfectly good reason, but not the only one
Is it a reason? seems like a pretty negative view to me. if it is surely the question is Why did we punch above our weight?

Stu Littlefair

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Fair enough Stu. In that case can the people who've tried to climb hard sport in the UK and Europe confirm how often their UK 9a-and-upwards projects are in climbable (or workable, even if it's too warm to send) condition compared to their 9a-and-upwards projects abroad, throughout the year overall??

I can only give you two data points. I've never had a day on Rainshadow when it was unworkable, and I think it's in a climbable state more than three quarters of the time. In the four weeks I've spent in Baltzola hoping to try a 9a it was wet or condensed out for 3.5 weeks.

I've probably spent around three months of my life climbing in Europe outside the prime sending season of Sep-Apr, and of those I've only had a week or two when the conditions would have been good enough to try a hard route (Ceuse). This includes time spent at spots which are well known for good summer connies, like Gorge du Loup, but they've been dogshit (hot and humid) when I've been there.

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Another factor to consider is, in the loosest sense, class and the parental ambitions of parents.

The amount of time it takes to become an elite performer in any sport is significant and while in many sports the reqards of reaching the elite are sufficient to aspire to the elite (with all the sacrifices and compromises that entails) in climbing that is not a factor and parents would rather their son/daughter worked hard at school, got good grades and went to a good university than risked all that to be 'a great climber' (as climbing 8b is not enough). 

Most footballers are 'working class' and from families with low(er) aspirations and as such if they fail to make the Premier League and end up playing in league 2 they're still making a living and perhaps much more than a consultant surgeon, if thy don't make it to that grade and only scrape through with a few GCSE's then that could be in line with expectations. 

In other words for the stereotype of the middle class climber the upside of being 'the best' is tiny and the downside of going for it and failing is massive, the reverse is true for those seeking to be elite footballers etc.

I think if you asked most folk on here with children, would you rather they went to a good university and took a good degree and climbed HVS or 'nearly' made it to the elite level but then spent their life doing low paid rope access work (I'm aware some rope access work can be well paid, but I imagine you need more than the ability to climb 8c) I think we know what the answer would be.

Stu Littlefair

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Stu- i am guilty of thinking about the younger generation here which is what the initial thread was about. Obviously travel becomes harder as we get older and tie our selves down with the trappings of life. if your in your late teens early 20s and want to climb the hardest routes there should be no reason why you cant find the time.
You do seem to manage ok though, and get a good few hard routes done abroad.

Even for the younger generation it makes a difference. In Spain you find 9a working class heros who finish their jobs as firemen and go work there local projects. You don't have to have the cash/time to go abroad and so more people have the opportunity. I think you're looking at going abroad and arguing that because it's possible, it doesn't matter whether it's harder or not. If it's harder to climb 9a here, fewer people will do it.

Looking at why we were world class in the 80s - it's impossible to say for sure. It was such a small group of people, and so many things were different between then and now. We got on the systematic training bandwagon early. There was a massive dole scene. Any of those could be part of the reason, but the numbers are so small it could just have been a fluke.

kelvin

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but anyway it's got nothing to do with money.

You're right - and that's the point I was trying to make. Someone else mentioned today's economic situation as perhaps a reason for not being able to swan off climbing and I was trying to answer that.

I also take your point about being able to spend every weekend climbing at Malham. That's just a long drive away for me and no excuses, I choose to live in the south east.

Johnny Brown

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Do you mean world class as in something people do around the world that we are good at

Yes, of course. I am not talking about grit headpointing.

I say we should have reason to celebrate our climbing successes and you say that's negative. Well that about sums up this thread - epic negativity from you whilst swearing blind it isn't.

Britain isn't brilliant at sport climbing because there is no compelling reason why we would be. We don't have inspiring sport climbing. Thankfully we have a fantastic track record at adventurous trad climbing, because we have world class trad, it is inspiring and hence where the talent mostly concentrate, but you can't be bothered to learn about it. Then moan that folk do it and not what you'd rather.

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Gav has a point and a few people climbing hard makes it easier for others to do the same

I'd agree it should do. So why didn't the Ben/ Jerry/ School produce anyone else world class? Because they were anomalously good. How the fuck that can be construed as a negative statement is beyond me...

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I think if you asked most folk on here with children, would you rather they went to a good university and took a good degree and climbed HVS or 'nearly' made it to the elite level but then spent their life doing low paid rope access work (I'm aware some rope access work can be well paid, but I imagine you need more than the ability to climb 8c)

You need considerably less. Can you breathe? Whereas most of our 8c climbers seem to have good degrees.

Stu Littlefair

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We don't have inspiring sport climbing. I don't like sport climbing.

There. Fixed that for you.

Johnny Brown

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C'mon Stu, on a world stage? This is really the root of the debate - in Spain sport climbing *is* climbing. In the UK it isn't. That's the problem, if you want to be negative and call it a problem.

Bonjoy

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I think the Brit quality thing is a touch misleading. Britain may have world class sport climbs in quality terms, but the climbing just isn’t as fun as elsewhere. Think Schubert versus the Venga Boys. You can argue the former is of better quality than the latter, but which is going to get more people dancing at the wedding?

PS I like UK sport climbing... but not half as much as Spanish sport climbing.

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Jerry liked the Venga Boys, perhaps that's it Jon? You've nailed it.. More cheesy Euro pop.

gme

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I say we should have reason to celebrate our climbing successes and you say that's negative. Well that about sums up this thread - epic negativity from you whilst swearing blind it isn't.

Britain isn't brilliant at sport climbing because there is no compelling reason why we would be. We don't have inspiring sport climbing. Thankfully we have a fantastic track record at adventurous trad climbing, because we have world class trad, it is inspiring and hence where the talent mostly concentrate, but you can't be bothered to learn about it. Then moan that folk do it and not what you'd rather.

[/quote]

First i have absolutely no issue with trad climbing, or any aspect of climbing, nor do i think one is superior to another but do we really have world class trad climbing compared to other countries. Do loads of climbers come to the UK to do our trad routes from abroad because its world class or do they come here as it has a very healthy scene if your into trad climbing created by the attitude of the people involved in it rather than the quality of what we climb up. I would suggest its the latter. Everything that is said about UK sports climbing not being inspiring compared to the Euro hot spots could easily be applied to our trad climbing as well if compared say to to the valley etc.

Also I have never once suggested we don't celebrate all aspects of our climbing or suggest you saying that was negative. 

I do think your comment that we punched above our weight is exactly the type of response that does not help future generations try to achieve what i feel they are capable of. It doesn't stop them but doesn't help.

You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers and tell them not to bother trying to get really good at sports climbing as they have no chance. All our crags are shit, it always rains, we were just lucky before and no one is interested anyway. Not particularly helpful.



Fiend

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Where else in the world has the wealth and variety of accessible, well documented, normal trad (not just big walls) that the UK does in such a small area??

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You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers and tell them not to bother trying to get really good at sports climbing as they have no chance. All our crags are shit, it always rains, we were just lucky before and no one is interested anyway. Not particularly helpful.

Your viewpoint could be paraphrased in such disparaging terms quite easily!

gme

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You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers and tell them not to bother trying to get really good at sports climbing as they have no chance. All our crags are shit, it always rains, we were just lucky before and no one is interested anyway. Not particularly helpful.

Your viewpoint could be paraphrased in such disparaging terms quite easily!

Yes quite easily. I appologise as it brings nothing to the conversation but JBs comment " Seems like the main problem here is that Gav spent his formative years with Ben and Jerry, during an anomalous time when the UK punched far above it weight in sport climbing. What happened to their hotpot effect eh" deserved such a retort.

 

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