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Pygmalion- How a greek myth effects british sports climbing standards (Read 49439 times)

Johnny Brown

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Yeah, good point about power. You say you don't recognise my characterisation only to give an example of what exactly I was talking about - just substitute 'stamina' or 'power' for 'training' as appropriate.

Agree there isn't much inspiring sport in the UK. The fact we have world class trad and bouldering means folk are understandably going to focus on them instead. The Uk does very well on the world stage given the lack of proper mountains and little quality limestone.

Stubbs

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And the weather in the UK is actually ideal for hard climbing. Try climbing 9a in Spain in the middle of summer.


Are two dry summers making you forget the years when the hard routes were seldom dry? It's hard to dispute that we suffer from extended periods where you can't get on hard routes because they are wet, it's to cold, or they are covered in ice. Both France and Spain seem to have pretty good options for climbing in the high 8's and 9's for most of the year.

petejh

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Good thread, good replies, but as before it boils down to not having enough good sport climbing and not having enough dry weather. Move UK to Catalyuna and the standards would rise for sure.
Along with expectations...

Interesting discussion at the crag this afternoon about expectations. One idea mentioned: Ron Fawcett - world's best climber at one point - could have climbed so much harder physically. He did loads of 7cs - 8a. Why not harder? It's not like he wasn't physically capable.

GME, agree totally but I've thought that way for years (ask Doylo), and was going to write something almost identical but I don't have the pedigree, so best that one of the climbing establishment from Sheffield start the debate, it keeps things as they should be. Keep it simple - what levels should be considered significant (in your opinion)? Put a firm number on what you consider a significant level for various disciplines, or you're just talking abstracts. I know what I think is significant and it isn't men repeating 8cs or E8s, or women repeating 8bs or E7s, fine achievements as these are. I'm not sure much is going to change with the way ascents are reported until an editor or website owner has the balls (or tits) to draw firm boundaries, and also, as Stu says, to be a bit more thoughtful about the tone of reporting. And then there'll still be company websites with their own news feeds, which are increasingly looked at by people wanting the latest 'news', and linked to the discussion forums.

JB - Yep. Daniel Coyle's 'Talent Code' and various of the other literature on excellence describe many outliers of excellence and I think it's the same in climbing. Think about it, why were Moffat, Moon et al the best? - it wasn't because they were doing what other climbers around Sheffield were doing. It was because they were doing something different to what everybody else was doing. It's the same with certain other climbers who've achieved excellence.
And you're talking utter bollocks about availability of quality sport as usual. You shouldn't be allowed to post about sport climbing other than to say you're shit at it  :P

Weather's obviously an issue and it filters out the less die-hard who might actually be better climbers than the ones prepared to suffer the ming. N.Wales is a paradise of quality new routing at the moment, unlike the Peak/Yorkshire scene. I've just got in from the diamond (mint) where me and a certain 8c+ climber were trying our respective 3 star grade 8 new-routes. Plenty more to go at for those with the motivation. Again it comes down to not doing what other people are doing.

I think the general level has actually jumped quite a bit over the last few years - E5/6 os and 8a-8b ascents are relatively commonplace cf. a few years ago.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 07:32:56 pm by petejh »

petejh

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Thinking about the weather theory some more, it seems to me that it’s highly unlikely to be responsible for lower top-end sport-climbing standards amongst brits.

Imagine a sport-climber wad living in a climbing town somewhere in mainland Europe who wishes to climb good quality hard sport routes with year-round reliable conditions. Disregard Spain and France for the moment.
First of all, if they're top-end they're likely to be partly funded to travel to crags...
Say they live in Austria… no year-round conditions there?
Switzerland.. nope.
Czech Republic/Slovakia, no.
Italy - maybe year-round quality hard climbing, but the distance you’d need to travel must be similar to London-Aviemore? (Nibble?)
Belgium, nope.
Germany, no.

How about the US and Canada. Canada’s rock season is short – the Rockies season is May-Sept but the best hard sport crags are high in the alpine with a 3-month season, and you have to hike an hour uphill for anything that could be described as good quality hard sport. West Coast Canada has a similar rock season to the UK. In Canada you have to travel fucking light years to get to the non-local crags. That's why the rock-climbers head south to the US each winter.

The US – year-round quality hard sport? Yeah. But again, you need a spaceship to get between areas. If you live in Boulder, or anywhere, realistically it isn’t year-round quality hard sport routes unless you can spend weeks and weeks road-tripping…

France/Spain. Year-round quality hard sport – tick. It still isn’t easy though – say you live in Chamonix, you still have to travel significant distances in the colder months if you want quality hard sport. Or Paris etc. etc.

Really most Euros, Yanks and Canadians have to travel just as much as any Brit, if they wanted to climb ‘year-round quality hard sport’. Weather can’t be the reason for our lower top-end sport-climbing standards. The UK is actually well-placed, relatively, for access to endless good-quality hard sport climbing - with plenty in the UK itself and a lifetime's worth either a short flight or the equivalent of a Euro’s, Canadian's or Yank's weekend’s drive away.

Stubbs

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Really most Euros, Yanks and Canadians have to travel just as much as any Brit, if they wanted to climb ‘year-round quality hard sport’. Weather can’t be the reason for our lower top-end sport-climbing standards. The UK is actually well-placed, relatively, for access to endless good-quality hard sport climbing - with plenty in the UK itself and a lifetime's worth either a short flight or the equivalent of a Euro’s, Canadian's or Yank's weekend’s drive away.

This would go a long way to explaining why the majority of the world's best sport climbers are from France and Spain then?

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Say they live in Austria… no year-round conditions there?
Winter in the Alps probably has more climbable days than winter in the UK - less damp greyness, more clear crisp days with blue skies - and there's a lot of low down south facing rock in the general vicinity of Innsbruck. Definitely possible to climb there all year round. Don't have personal experience of how much of it is high quality hard stuff.

Quote
Germany, no.
Ditto for general weather and there are winter climbable crags in the Frankenjura, but a lot of the steeper stuff tends to seep from autumn onwards. I remember the late Ian V mentioning in a previous incarnation of this thread that he spent a winter in Erlangen and didn't climb any more than he could have done in the UK. So probably right on that one.


petejh

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This would go a long way to explaining why the majority of the world's best sport climbers are from France and Spain then?

Quite, and yet goes nowhere in explaining why only one brit has ever climbed 9a+ when other nations face the same route conditions issues as Britain.

(Gaskins? So maybe two)

Oldmanmatt

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Always found Swiss/northern Italy to have long periods of stable dry weather through Jan to March. And I've had some baking hot days at Creci in Feb.
 

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Quite, and yet goes nowhere in explaining why only one brit has ever climbed 9a+ when other nations face the same route conditions issues as Britain.

(Gaskins? So maybe two)

But how many have climbed the same grade from not-France-and-Spain, only a handful from each country, not significantly more than the UK?

petejh

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You'll have to do your own research of nationality but here's a quick google search, only 8a.nu stats as at June 2014
( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AUgngrG97iOlIOr9pxeJsmeE0kzSoiFA0mmhnCEZQu4/edit#gid=191254885 )
It's missing Alex Megos, so I imagine quite a few more must be missing (apols for messed-up layout):

 Climber            8c+   9a    9a+    9b    9b+          Climbers    "Harder"      3.6
 adam ondra     x     x     x     x     x        9b+         1                2.0      1.0
 Magnus Midtbø     x     x     x     x           9b          2                8.5      3.6
 Ramón JP      x     x     x                        9a+        17        4.9      13.0
 David Graham     x     x     x              9a        84        2.0      47.0
 Patxi Usobiaga     x     x     x              8c+       170                         169.8
 Sachi Amma     x     x     x                      
 Daniel Woods     x     x     x                      
 Daniel Jung     x     x     x                      
 Eduard Marin     x     x     x                      
 Steve McClure     x     x     x                      
 Reffo Silvio     x     x     x                      
 Ethan Pringle     x     x     x                      
 Tino Lois             x     x     x                      
 Edu Marin             x     x     x                      
 Yuji Hirayama     x     x     x                      
 Josune Bereziat     x     x     x                      
 Vasa Vorotnikov  x     x     x                      
 Lukasz Dudek     x     x                         
 Mateus Haladaj     x     x                         
 Domen Škofic     x     x                         
 Toni Lamprecht     x     x                         
 Dai Koyamada     x     x                         
 C. Bindhammer     x     x                         
 Daniel Fuertes     x     x                         
 Stefano Ghisolfi     x     x                         
 Stephan Schibli     x     x                         
 Jon Cardwell     x     x                         
 Geoffray De F     x     x                         
 Cedric Lo Piccolo x     x                         
 Matej Sova     x     x                         
 Daniel Moreno     x     x                         
 David Firnenburg x     x                         
 Piotr Schab     x     x                         
 Matteo Gambaro x     x                         
 Iván Hernández     x     x                         
 Thanasis Htenas x     x                         
 Markus Jung     x     x                         
 Mikail Chernikov  x     x                         
 Felipe Camargo     x     x                         
 Ben Spannuth     x     x                         
 Kévin Aglaé     x     x                         
 Sasha Digiulian     x     x                         
 Erik Lopez     x     x                         
 Rémy Bergasse     x     x                         
 Riccardo Scarian  x     x                         
 Greg Sobczak     x     x                         
 Tom Bolger     x     x                         
 Pierre Bollinger     x     x                         
 Gabor Szekely     x     x                         
 Nick Duttle     x     x                         
 Iris Mata Quero     x     x                         
 Guillaume Lebret x     x                         
 Mathieu Bouyoud x     x                         
 Cedric Lachat     x     x                         
 Sasha Gerzha     x     x                         
 A. Bindhammer     x     x                         
 Diego Marsella     x     x                         
 Gautier Supper     x     x                         
 André Neres     x     x                         
 Alexey Rubtsov     x     x                         
 Bogdan Rokosz     x     x                         
 Shoda Shinichi     x     x                         
 BJ Tilden             x     x                         
 Manu Lopez     x     x                         
 Jure Golob     x     x                         
 Alizée Dufraisse  x     x                         
 Pierre Soule     x     x                         
 Peter Kamitses     x     x                         
 Jan Hojer             x     x                         
 Alberto Gnerro     x     x                         
 Geir Söderin     x     x                         
 Rosta Stefanek     x     x                         
 Said Belhaj     x     x                         
 Muriel Sarkany     x     x                         
 Alex Chabot     x     x                         
 Piotrek Czarneck x     x                         
 Evan Hau             x     x                         
 Keita Mogaki     x     x                         
 Markus Bendler     x     x                         
 Ruben Firneburg  x     x                         
 Jordan Buys     x     x                         
 Pedro Bergua     x     x                         
 Luke Parady     x     x                         
 Adam Stack     x     x                         
 Adam Pustelnik     x                            
 Evgenya Malamidx                            
 Alex Honnold     x                            
 Luis Penín     x                            
 Carlos Jiménez     x                            
 Alfons Dornauer     x                            
 Laurent Hogan     x                            
 Justen Sjong     x                            
 Erik Grandelius     x                            
 Giusep Nolasco     x                            
 Christian Münch     x                            
 Ivailo Krastev     x                            
 Paul Smitton     x                            
 Jason Campbell     x                            
 Mike Doyle     x                            
 Yuriy Dzyubyak     x                            
 Izidor Zupan     x                            
 Rafal Porebski     x                            
 David Fuentes     x                            
 Gareth Parry     x                            
 Rudi Moroder     x                            
 Hugo Meignan     x                            
 Petr Blaha     x                            
 Tim Unuk             x                            
 Marco Jubes     x                            
 Kensuke Hamadax                            
 Steve Townshendx                            
 Michal Jagielski     x                            
 Roland Wagner     x                            
 Alan Cassidy     x                            
 Maja Vidmar     x                            
 Vonarburg Nicola x                            
 Markus Eberl     x                            
 Matthias Schiestl x                            
 Future Roden     x                            
 Milky Williams     x                            
 Eric Siguier     x                            
 Marcell Bombardi x                            
 Alberto Nasarre     x                            
 Shawn Diamond     x                            
 Matteo Pino     x                            
 Andoni Txertudi     x                            
 V. Shevchenko     x                            
 Maksim Petrenko x                            
 Matic Obid     x                            
 Aleksand Taistra x                            
 Mikel Linacisoro     x                            
 Urs Moosmüller     x                            
 Mikhail Shalagin  x                            
 Samuel Darmond x                            
 Jenny Lavarda     x                            
 Àlex Hernández     x                            
 Marti  Galobart     x                            
 Keller Rinaudo     x                            
 J. Perschmann     x                            
 Daniel Fisher     x                            
 B. Antheunisse     x                            
 Luka Zazvonil     x                            
 Stefano Carnati     x                            
 Wiz Fineron     x                            
 Tatsumi Nitta     x                            
 Eva López             x                            
 Clinton Martin     x                            
 Pavel Lieven     x                            
 Tamás Farkas     x                            
 Dylan Barks     x                            
 G. Glairon-Mondt x                            
 Lars Gudevang     x                            
 Bálint Kámvás     x                            
 Z. Christophe     x                            
 Kymy de la peña x                            
 K. Watanabe     x                            
 Adam Mach     x                            
 Julien Panigot     x                            
 Zeb Engberg     x                            
 C. Feistmantl     x                            
 robin henon     x                            
 Francois Legrand x                            
 Hernan Garcia     x                            
 Samuel Hammer  x                            
 Arjan de Kock     x                            
 Hannah Midtbø     x                            
 Jarle Kalland     x                            
 V. Motilevsky     x                            
 Mar Álvarez     x                            
 Natalija Gros     x                            
     170      84      17      2      1                
        2.02      4.94      8.50      2.00                
      49.4%   20.2%   11.8%   50.0%               
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 12:05:40 am by petejh »

Sasquatch

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There're at least 3-4 US people missing, so I'd guess alot in the end.  Old school guys in particular like Fred, Klem, and Rouhling are all missing as well.....

Muenchener

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Not everybody uses 8a.nu.

Missing 9a+(+) climbers off the top of my head Sharma, Alex Huber, Markus Bock, Alex Megos (Germany starts to come out rather well) Toni Lamprecht ??

There's also Udo Neumann' list


petejh

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Not everybody uses 8a.nu.

Missing 9a+(+) climbers off the top of my head Sharma, Alex Huber, Markus Bock, Alex Megos (Germany starts to come out rather well) Toni Lamprecht ??

It's just meant as a start point to give an idea of the numbers. And the numbers for 9a+ don't really tally with a theory about the weather in Britain, or the availability of hard sport climbing to Brits compared to nations other than France/Spain, holding back top-end standards.

That French site lists Steve McClure as having done 10 grade 9s, is that right?

Doylo

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Probably including Hubble and link ups. He's not done any abroad I don' t think.

petejh

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The site lists 18 illustrious Grimpeurs Britanniques as having done 9a but it should be 16 including a boulder trav (is Stamina-Power link 9a?):

Delete - Dyer, Robins, Barrows, Simpson(???).

Add - Moon (Hubble), Dunning

Boulder traverse (9a?) - Paul Smitton

Unconfirmed - Gaskins, Haston, Dunne

Oldmanmatt

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What I'm getting from these numbers is:

There is a massive (>90%) drop from those achieving 8c+ (roughly 200ish) and those achieving 9a.
And moving on to 9a+?

So, 23 years after Action directe, only two humans have moved convincingly past that point.(or is it three)?

I'm not convinced that 9a is about to become a "Trade route" or commonplace in the way that 8a did.
And proportion of Brits reaching that level is not as far off the mark as I'd imagined.

There have been considerable improvements in shoe/rubber, rope weights, rack weights etc etc since Big Ron (and who knows what he might have done with all that and his raw talent).

Take that 9b+ for a moment.

A Yank and a Czeck, climbing in Spain.

Hardly local for either.

Rambling and incoherent perhaps, but I'm neither stupid nor ignorant of climbing and I do not see compelling evidence or indicators, that the next twenty years will see a similarly large advancement.

The jump from the start of "Training" (arguably Wolfgang) and today has been large and whilst there is room for improvement in training techniques etc, will it really be able to produce such a large shift again?

I agree there is infinite scope for "Harder" and I'll avoid using extreme examples this time as people seem to miss the intended irony.

I agree to an extent with the op's conjecture about praise vs honest appraisal by coaches and the public at large.
But how much that holds back development, or any of the other factors described in the thread; compared to the simple physical difficulties of moving beyond a certain level of difficulty?

Adam O seems most likely to break new ground and I can't wait to see how far he takes it. Perhaps the first generation who have trained from a very early age, so perhaps with the greatest potential we've ever seen.

If they don't make it, in droves, to the bar and pass it; how much further is there?



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A Yank and a Czeck, climbing in Spain.

Hardly local for either.

Sharma lives in Lleida doesn't he?

And when you're a full time climber (or in earlier years have the whole school holidays to play with and incredibly supportive parents), does your original nationality matter that much?

Oldmanmatt

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A Yank and a Czeck, climbing in Spain.

Hardly local for either.

Sharma lives in Lleida doesn't he?

And when you're a full time climber (or in earlier years have the whole school holidays to play with and incredibly supportive parents), does your original nationality matter that much?

Yes.

Opinion only, but the culture in Franc, Spain and Italy; to my certain knowledge , see's climbing as a much more legitimate sport. Britain is only slowly coming around to that way of thinking.

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More interest than I thought in the topic and its done a pretty good job of staying on subject. It has produced all of the responses I suspected and that I feel go a good way to confirming my original thought that our lack of ambition and grudging acceptance that we can’t be as good as the French or Spanish is a major contributor to why we are lagging behind world standards in sports climbing.

Firstly to the question of whether we are behind world standards I would suggest we are. 9b+ has been climbed by 2 people, 9a+ has been done in a few hours and 9a has been on sighted by two people, 8c+ by more and 8c on sights by more again. Other than our geriatric leader the performance of our top climbers has been equalled, if not bettered, by women (and please don’t go down the sexism route as that is not what is implied, standards in women’s climbing have risen dramatically,especially here, but there is still a substantial difference in levels compared to men as there is in most sports).

Looking at the lists that nikeair linked to and taking out the link ups/traverses/myths we have 9 or 10 people that have broken into the 9th grade, more comparable to Poland, Canada, japan and Switzerland than to the big boys.

So I think we are behind.

My response to points raised.

1.   Grit/trad/bouldering- I do think that the trad obsession has not helped, but the bouldering thing has taken off all over the world and not held back the level of sports climbing, in fact I would say the opposite in that it has pushed things forward so should have had the same effect here. Despite what Barrows (and Steve) may be trying to convince us all you cannot climb the hardest routes by being weak; the top boys all boulder well up in the high 8s. The trad thing, the medias focus on it and the UKCs readerships obsession with “real climbing” has held sports climbing back, but even more so held trad climbing back as the Pygmalion effect is even stronger in the UK trad scene(E8 headpoints of 30 year old routes are still seen as something to aspire to.) This is exactly the point i am trying to make.

2.   Steve McClure- I think Steve being portrayed as some kind of freakishly talented climber who never trains (yeah right) has really had a bad effect on peoples belief. Steve has focused every waking minute of his life on the pursuit of hard redpointing and trained harder than anyone else.  The British media love this in every sport, its still so very ungentlemanly to have to work hard at something, so have lapped it up and Steves gone along with it. The early 90s was all about training and it was seen as the thing to do, Malc being the ultimate example. We all believed we could do the hardest routes if we trained really hard as that’s what we were told.

3.   We don’t have the right routes/weather here- This has been rolled out for decades and, in relation to the development of our climbers, is a total load of bollocks. Its easier to travel now, cheaper to do so and there is much more choice. Most breakthrough levels in the 80s and 90s happened outside of the UK. I would suggest that Ben and Jerrys first 8bs,8b+s, 8cs were all done abroad on trips, as were the 8As, 8A+s and 8Bs. Hubble was the only 1st that happened on our shores. Ben Davison hinted at this in the interview I did with him on UKC saying it seems easier to go abroad for a trip to focus on a hard route than stay in Britain. Ondra lives in a pretty similar set of circumstances as here, in fact I would say worse. Limited local resource and what there is looks a very similar standard to ravens tor. So yes our lack of rock could be responsible for our lack of hard routes but not lack of hard climbers. Ditto weather.

4.   The Sheffield scene- I am not even going to comment on the perception of the so called “scene” that JB hints at as I don’t think its relevant or true. I will however say that the major thing that living in Sheffield brought to the development of standards was the raising of everyone’s expectations. You constantly saw the best climbers doing the hardest things, these things then became very tangible and therefore possible in your mind. You also saw first-hand that it was the ones who worked hardest who were the best, full stop. The development of “honey pots” happens in all sport and is now actively promoted as a way to push athletes on. Team sky relocating its cycling team to Manchester being a classic example. Surround yourself with people who are really good and have hugely high expectations’ and you will be dragged along with it.

5.   Oldmanmatt/limits- Another classic example of low expectations making it harder for everyone to believe. We are so far from what is capable it hardly even deserves comment. I think the opposite to you and believe we are in the middle of the biggest improvement in standards we have seen since the 80s. Its probably a different topic but I think 9c will be done within 5 years, 9b will be getting done with regularity and 9a+ will be onsighted. The improvement between 9a+-9b+ has been far quicker than 9a-9a+ and shows no signs of slowing down. Ondra and megos are nowhere near there limit and are 20 years old.

To me all the above points only reinforce my beliefs that we are talking ourselves out of being world class and without a fundamental change in the medias and the public’s attitude will continue to do so.



JohnM

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The problem in this country is not always the rain or cold it is the humidity.  The effect humidity has on performance at the top end is proportional to the hold size.  i.e. we often have humid conditions and very small holds.

gme

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The problem in this country is not always the rain or cold it is the humidity.  The effect humidity has on performance at the top end is proportional to the hold size.  i.e. we often have humid conditions and very small holds.

Another good excuse. See point 3 above.

Stubbs

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Gav do you think it's fair comparing Ben and Jerry's achievements in a time when, as far as I can see, neither of them had to work at all, and were therefore free to spend endless months abroad, with that of today's economic situation where it's not quite as easy to just sign on ever two weeks and live in a shed?

You keep on putting down the excuses raised, and individually they may not amount to much but perhaps there's a cumulative effect? 

kelvin

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A fat, injury prone punter's perspective, having cragged or climbed indoors with three of the GB youth team in the last month.

I know Tara Hayes best I guess, her mum is my physio, we play add-a-hold in the boulder room and on Saturday she won the British Leading Youth A comp to go with the bouldering title she held already. She's number 4 I think in the world boulder rankings for her age. She managed 8a at 13 indoors.
She's hardly been outside climbing at all, a couple of trips to Suirana the highlight and if you mention a boulder problem in the Pass to her - blankness. Very little knowledge of climbing history or climbers BUT she's totally psyched to get into a Sheffield Uni, as that would mean she'd be in the 'honeypot'. For her that's a positive thing, it would only help her to progress.

Then there's my mate's lad Cameron, who won his age group on Saturday as well. The lad's like a sponge, soaks in knowledge and is starting to get outside plenty.

Catrin is only 14, loads of talent and has thoroughly supportive parents like the other two - in fact, I'd say that that's the biggest asset for all three of them have when it comes to comp climbing. Their parents are with them every step of the way, belaying, fetching and carrying. It seems like that makes all the difference to me.

I know Tara would love to be world number 1 one day but I can't think of one conversation with her were she's stated she'd love to climb 9a one day. Catrin's mum thought that 8c was the hardest a woman had climbed. Maybe for a Brit but there's five women who've clipped the chains of a 9a... and I think that that's definitely an issue. I hear people complaining that ukc has too many foreign news reports but how can you ever engender a sense that 9b is a totally realistic goal for someone like Cameron to have, if he never gets to read about people climbing that grade?

9a trad? Maybe I've missed something but I've never read or heard of a Brit having that as an ambition but I've a South African mate who's bouldering like mad at the moment, getting stronger before turning his attention to sport next year. He's already managed 8b trad and 9a trad is certainly a long term goal for him.

Brits are said to love a good looser (Eddie 'the eagle' Edwards) and I think that certainly plays a part in dumbing down ambition in the British. Being seen to be openly ambitious often leads to accusations of being arrogant etc. I find that sad.


kelvin

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Gav do you think it's fair comparing Ben and Jerry's achievements in a time when, as far as I can see, neither of them had to work at all, and were therefore free to spend endless months abroad, with that of today's economic situation where it's not quite as easy to just sign on ever two weeks and live in a shed?


Personally - I find that an excuse. I've had a few mates potter off and live in vans, with no income at all and that's something I'll be doing myself next year. Hopefully for 18 months and I'm just a punter with a goal of 7a and 7A one day in the future.

Some people are prepared to sacrifice central heating, the latest iPhone etc for their goals and ambitions. I can easily convince myself the sensible thing would be not to head off to Spain but it would be just a long list of excuses. I'm crap, I really am but some days I climb really well for me - I wanna find out what I can do. That's gonna cost me a fortune in lost income alone, I'm shaking my head whilst I write this but I can find no reasons for not going. Only excuses. I'm with Gav on this.

 

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