UKBouldering.com

Pygmalion- How a greek myth effects british sports climbing standards (Read 49454 times)

Wood FT

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2951
  • Karma: +162/-8
oh yes I know that's the main topic I was just struggling to see how my off-topic comment you've quoted linked into that

tim palmer

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 735
  • Karma: +34/-0
 :sorry: I my understanding of emoticon syntax is poor 

gme

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1805
  • Karma: +147/-6
I was just providing an example, I thought maybe the dead horse had not been sufficiently flogged

Why bring it up again if your so sure the horse is dead. And thanks for referencing a very good example of what i was talking about.

I still think i am right in my thinking, am still very interested in the subject, and am still doing a fair amount of researching into it but cant be arsed to discuss it on here as i have found the nature of forums not suitable to have a constructive discussion.

tim palmer

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 735
  • Karma: +34/-0
I was just providing an example, I thought maybe the dead horse had not been sufficiently flogged

Why bring it up again if your so sure the horse is dead. And thanks for referencing a very good example of what i was talking about.

I would try and argue with you but it is clear that you are not taking in to anything anyone else has posted.  All I will say is correlation is not the same as causation.

a dense loner

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 7165
  • Karma: +388/-28
Tim what are you saying? Has someone spiked yours and stu littlefella's drinks recently? I can't make any sense of what you've both been trying to talk about

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5781
  • Karma: +622/-36
Those routes do sound fantastic, the sort of things I'd love to check out if I was in the area and going well. It's cool to hear about such off-the beaten path adventurous sport routes although I was already well aware of Infinite Gravity as a goal to go and try one day.. I think stories like this, with accompanying sponsorship information for the climbers because that's important to readers, could be reported in a new UKB thread specifically designed for this purpose:

SPRAY - Significant Personal Repeat Ascents: Yes!

With possibly a coastal sub-thread: SEA SPRAY

gme

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1805
  • Karma: +147/-6


I would try and argue with you but it is clear that you are not taking in to anything anyone else has posted.  All I will say is correlation is not the same as causation.
[/quote]

Tim you are very wrong. i have listened to an noted everything people have said and am far from the "i am right so fuck everyone else position" you think i am. Lots of interesting points have been raised some i agree with some i don't.

The reason i don't want to discuss it on here is due to the chat room format which i find is difficult to have a relatively serious conversation. Bit like sitting in a meeting with people walking in an out of it as they please adding comment only to the last 5 mins they have been involved in.

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
I think the problem was mainly that the thread quickly turned to discussing the broader question 'why is the Uk shit at sport climbing?'. Which wasn't what the thread was really aimed at originally.

Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
I don’t know if this point has already been made but news content in mags and websites is purely a function of what content is available to the producer at any given time, and has very little to do with producing outcomes other than entertaining the readers and increasing sales/site traffic. I assume this model is universal not just a UK thing. If the only thing of note on a given day is something of a modest grade with some other interest value then that is what will get published, to expect otherwise is folly. Personally I’d rather have something to read than nothing. I really can’t imagine this is any different in other (by whatever measure successful) countries. I also think that it’s getting your chicken and egg the wrong way round to think that a lack of high grades in the news is the cause of said lack. Surely a simpler explanation is that folk don’t climb that hard so the ascents that get in the news reflect that. How could you possibly prove the causation was reversed anyway?
<Said the guy walking into the meeting for 5 minutes>

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5781
  • Karma: +622/-36
Just popping by on way to the water-cooler..

GME - what other options do you have for discussing your idea that: 'the media reporting of ascents may contribute to a lowering of standards among top sport-climbers in the UK by lowering expectations of what constitutes a significant performance level'?

You could write an article for a mag, the pro's of that are you could possibly go into more detail than on here, although I doubt it, as long as you're prepared to ignore every little comment and focus instead on staying on topic you can have more detail on a forum. The cons of a mag article are no-one is talking back to you so it isn't dynamic, it's just your idea up to the point of publishing.
You could write a blog. Pro's - you can go into as much detail as you like although you'd lose a percentage of readers if it's too long and/or bland. Also it's more dynamic than a mag article. Con's - less people will see it than here or in a mag, although probably more now than if you hadn't started the topic here first.
You could keep it to yourself and talk among friends at the crag/wall and just accept that's how it is.

I think airing ideas on a forum like this is a good way to do it, but perhaps better is if it's linked to a well-researched blog post or article. And you don't have to respond to every little comment. Most people can see if a poster is missing the point you're trying to make or going off on a tangent. People will read what you write and the silent majority will take away what they will from it. And if people want to pink anasazi/pain o'raisin the thread there's not a lot you can do about it.

Even though I agree in parts with your idea, I don't think you've made a very strong argument. What you haven't done so far is back up your idea with any compelling evidence, either in terms of how we compare overall with other countries - someone else had to find out the numbers for you and I'm still not clear how we compare below 9a; nor given an alternative for how the media could report stuff in a way that you think would encourage higher expectations - obviously higher grades, but what's your cut-off for Men/Women, and Youths - what age? What about sponsors driving news stories (of 8cs and E9s that aren't?), whose interest is that in and what's the alternative? Or what about sponsors driving climbing websites in general - and their news - because websites and mags are largely paid for by advertising? How do you suggest to change editorial policy and what should it be like?

One sure-fire way to improve standards quite quickly would be if there were a significant financial incentive to climb very hard - say £6-8K per calender year? (so 1K each from some main UK companies connected to climbing) - open to all-comers. To be the first Uk male to repeat 3 9as in a calender year or one 9a+, and for each of the first two women to climb both a confirmed 8c and a confirmed 8c+ in a calender year. Two women, to promote greater depth of talent. Routes could be in any country but perhaps a 15% bonus for including a UK route, 30% if all in the UK. That should raise expectations and standards.

<leaving for lunchbreak>
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 12:00:49 pm by petejh »

Sloper

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • fat and weak but with good footwork.
  • Posts: 5199
  • Karma: +130/-78
It seems that Labour aren't going to put any resources into fighting the Rochester & Strood by election.

Ohh sorry, wrong meeting.

cowboyhat

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1496
  • Karma: +128/-5
news content in mags and websites is purely a function of what content is available to the producer at any given time, and has very little to do with producing outcomes other than entertaining the readers and increasing sales/site traffic.

This is a very important point.

As someone who works on a daily TV show, if there is no news, we still have to make a programme. Does this mean that apparently undue emphasis is often given to a woman whos cat is up a tree? Of course.

If anything I think youngsters nowadays are in a far better place than say twenty years ago when you had to wait for the mag to come out to discover what the editor had arbitrarily deemed worthy of publication/ had space for.

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
Gme, do you seriously imagine your point, as originally stated, has not caused everyone reading this to (at the very least) reconsider their position?
 This has been one of the liveliest debates on the forum for some time.

And it is important.

...ish.

Within the context of climbing, anyway.

For what it's worth, my read of this is that most people agree that your original point is valid and accept it as a contributing factor to the current climate.

After that, we all disagree with each other about it's ranking within the list of other, possible, factors.


And you and JB disagree.

About everything.

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
Oh, and if you think this is bad...

Try the planning meeting for a new Mega-yacht, where the Engineers go to war with the interior designers. Both of those groups fundamentally disagree with everything the exterior stylist has ever said, done or excreted. The Architect is in a dream world and the owners wife thinks she is the only one who understands anything.

tim palmer

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 735
  • Karma: +34/-0


For what it's worth, my read of this is that most people agree that your original point is valid and accept it as a contributing factor to the current climate.

After that, we all disagree with each other about it's ranking within the list of other, possible, factors.


And you and JB disagree.

About everything.


I also totally disagree with the original point, I think it is far more likely that moderate achievements are celebrated because not a lot of hard sport climbing is done (rather than the other way round) and some individuals or companies push their own achievements no matter how minor. 

I agree with alex that the cause of few people climbing 9a probably does lie in the relative lack of hard routes and lack of steep rock conducive to hard routes, I am confident if rodellar or even the frankenjura was transplanted to buxton that there would be a decent number of 9a climbers in the uk.

Possibly the lack of full-time climbers might have something to do with it, but I think this may not be a bad thing for the long term future of the sport in the UK.

abarro81

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
Actually, Rodellar is bad for 9s really, but if we transported Santa Linya there then I'd back you to be right.

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
Quote
I also totally disagree with the original point, I think it is far more likely that moderate achievements are celebrated because not a lot of hard sport climbing is done (rather than the other way round) and some individuals or companies push their own achievements no matter how minor. 

Yes.

The original analogy with business would have made more sense to me if the conclusion had been that we need more mentors in sport climbing, and the mentors need to have bigger vision.

Muenchener

Offline
  • *****
  • Trusted Users
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2692
  • Karma: +117/-0
I am confident if ... the frankenjura was transplanted to buxton that there would be a decent number of 9a climbers in the uk.

I would be opposed to this.

gme

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1805
  • Karma: +147/-6

The original analogy with business would have made more sense to me if the conclusion had been that we need more mentors in sport climbing, and the mentors need to have bigger vision.
[/quote]
But we are all playing the role of mentors and the media is a mentor. That's entirely the point. But even on here nobody truly believes that we can compete with the best. All we have are reasons why we can't, not the right routes, not the right weather, not the right amount of time, etc etc We therefore celebrate mediocrity as if that's as good as it gets which rubs off on the kids with the potential to be really good.

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
Can you paint us a picture of what you see as the alternative then? All can see is less sport climbing in the media, and less sport climbers as a result.

I don't agree we are really all playing the role of mentors, we might be part of a landscape of influence but a mentor is more than that. And as others have pointed out above the new media is not really about news any more. Whereas there are lots of actual coaches about nowadays acting as actual mentors. All the young talent in recent years seem to have been brought to our attention via a 'celeb' coach.

Stu Littlefair

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1836
  • Karma: +283/-2
    • http://www.darkpeakimages.co.uk

But even on here nobody truly believes that we can compete with the best. All we have are reasons why we can't

I think that's a massive mis-characterisation of many on here. It's perfectly possible to believe that UK climbers can reach 9a+/b, whilst acknowledging that it's easier to do so in some other countries, and that therefore more climbers from these countries will do so.

gme

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1805
  • Karma: +147/-6
But on here, as has been said before, is a very small relatively well educated in climbing terms)bunch. Other sites have much greater traffic and a lot less knowledge.

JB I  am not ignoring you but not going to reply now as it's late and I am on the vino.



Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
Ha!

Quote
But even on here nobody truly believes that we can compete with the best

Not my impression. We have done before, and could again. Dare I mention the other areas in climbing in which we manage to compete despite far greater disadvantages?

The bottom line for me is it's just not very fashionable at the mo in the UK.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal