[mrjonathanr]

Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. ...

Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together.....

Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?

Jerry.

^+1
Witty. Those days of climber A also being climber B are probably gone.

[Footwork]

Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. ...

Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together.....

Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?

Jerry.

^+1
Witty. Those days of climber A also being climber B are probably gone.

Climber B has probably got bigger balls if that counts.

[gme]

As sloper says I obviously know nothing as I disagree with everyone and would bet a lot of money that climber A who has the fitness, determination and motivation to red point 9A would be able to accomplish the achievements of Climber B quicker than B would equal A.
The difference is vast.
And you all appear to assume that climber A is just a trained chimp when there skill level has to be pretty high to achieve 9A. If it was just about training loads of people would be doing them.
If you read about caff doing Big Bang he seams to suggest he had to put more work into it than anything else he had done.

You all seem to be falling for exactly what my whole point is about British climbing. We have convinced our selves that climbing E7 onsight or head pointing an E9 is equivilent of sports climbing in the 9s and it just isn't. And until we change that mindset we will continue to stay a little island.

[Sloper]

climbing 9a is so 2007, good god man you're 7 years off the pace, making reference to 9a just shows why Biritish climbers are shit and why we'll never produce a world class climbing, reporting news of people doing 9a is just puffing their egos and damaging their developments. Anything less than a 9b redpoint should only be reported to close relatives and one's driver.

Anyway, I'll be in the Black Bull Friday /S aturday if you fancy a pint.

[Jaspersharpe]

Adam Gemili is really good though.

[Fiend]

Easy answer to that one JB climber A is the better climber. Anyone climbing 9a would be able to do 8A on grit or onsight E7 with a small amount of application if they wanted to do so (not sure about the mixed stuff but it really is a different activity in my mind, you might as well say got a single figure handicap in golf). However Climber B is miles away from doing 9a.

Srsly? First 8c in 3 days without any specific focus on that and instead spending the rest of the year ledge shuffling and snow plodding? Sure they'd have to put more work in to get 9a just as Caff says....and sure they could do it. As Ru said they probably have very comparable levels of potential and ability, but climber B is the one who has proved it.

[moose]

This thread has thoroughly convinced me of the error of my ways.  No longer will I congratulate a fellow mid-grade Malham-ite  / Kilnsenian when they tick off a route, lest, by showing approval of anything less than a 9a+ ascent, I'm damaging the aspirations of any passing yoof. 

It might seem rude, but I'm sure it's for the best - why risk stunting the ambition of future generations?  Politeness be damned! Britains future climbing might is at stake!

[masonwoods101]

  so moose it's your fault?

[a dense loner]

It's quite simply been said that it's not worth a thread in its own right, nothing disparaging at all has been mentioned.

[abarro81]

Everyone arguing about JB's example is missing the only point I tried to make which is that saying 'climber x could do y if they tried' is meaningless. Doing it is what counts.

We'll never all agree on how to weight different achievements, there's no point trying.

[Oldmanmatt]

It's quite simply been said that it's not worth a thread in its own right, nothing disparaging at all has been mentioned.

Said Dense in the 108th post of the "not worth a thread in it's own right" thread...

[Oldmanmatt]

Damn! There were two more before I finished typing that!

112...

[petejh]

So, what's significant for UK climbers then? What level warrants a special mention on here/ukc or in the comics? And what level do people expect climbers to be at who seek sponsorship/recognition for being excellent? People must have some idea of what level of performance they rate as well above 'club runner' status.

Specialist:
F8c+ (women 8b+) 8b+ o/s
E10 (women E9) E8 o/s
Font 8B+ (women font 8B) fuck knows
Mixed X (women IX) X o/s

All-rounder: drop 1 grade, 2 at most.

Under 16? drop 1 or 2.
 

[gme]

climbing 9a is so 2007, good god man you're 7 years off the pace, making reference to 9a just shows why Biritish climbers are shit and why we'll never produce a world class climbing, reporting news of people doing 9a is just puffing their egos and damaging their developments. Anything less than a 9b redpoint should only be reported to close relatives and one's driver.

Anyway, I'll be in the Black Bull Friday /S aturday if you fancy a pint.

Finally someone is getting the message. 9a is so last year we had half a dozen in the uk 10 years ago. font 8A on grit nearly 30 years ago, E7 35 years ago. So yes anything less than 9b isn't really that big a deal.

Well done sloper I thought you would be the last one to understand.

[gme]

This thread has thoroughly convinced me of the error of my ways.  No longer will I congratulate a fellow mid-grade Malham-ite  / Kilnsenian when they tick off a route, lest, by showing approval of anything less than a 9a+ ascent, I'm damaging the aspirations of any passing yoof. 

It might seem rude, but I'm sure it's for the best - why risk stunting the ambition of future generations?  Politeness be damned! Britains future climbing might is at stake!

FFS Climbing your first e1 , 5a, grade 2 gully should be praised but it's not news. You just have not got the gist of the whole conversation.

[moose]

You just have not got the gist of the whole conversation.

Or, I understood the gist of the conversation, but had been rendered facetious by a delivery from Master of Malt ("quality control testing" - a reluctant duty).

[gme]

[quote author=Sloper link=topic

Climbing is not track athletics where 'the best' is measured in fractions of a second and also using the same analogy you're talking shite, news of young athletes running >10 second 100m & etc make the news on a regular basis.
[/quote]

Bollocks. You hardly hear of any sprinters in the uk unless they run less than 10 secs. My cousin got a silver medal in this years commonwealth games 100 m relay I bet you have no fucking idea who he is.
And the reason you only really hear about our sprinters once they break 10 secs or get close is because running under 10 secs is the holy grail. Not the best but a big deal, bit like climbing 9a is in sports climbing.

[a dense loner]

This thread has thoroughly convinced me of the error of my ways.  No longer will I congratulate a fellow mid-grade Malham-ite  / Kilnsenian when they tick off a route, lest, by showing approval of anything less than a 9a+ ascent, I'm damaging the aspirations of any passing yoof. 

It might seem rude, but I'm sure it's for the best - why risk stunting the ambition of future generations?  Politeness be damned! Britains future climbing might is at stake!

It's quite simply been said that it's not worth a thread in its own right, nothing disparaging at all has been mentioned.

Said Dense in the 108th post of the "not worth a thread in it's own right" thread...

Matt my post was in reply to the 107th post above. The thread had actually turned quite interesting when moose brought up the offhand funny about people getting no praise at all because the achieved grade was too low, when the discussion had long turned away from this. I say turned away no one had said they should get no praise at any point. We had moved on.

[Sloper]

Funny that I was listening to the radio earlier this year about the young British athlete who had yet to break 10 seconds, we hear plenty about young British tennis players who are ranked outside of the top 200, have yu noticed the qualifier? It's their youth that mark them and their achievements out.

All but a very few will very be the best, should we only recognise Moffatt and Nadin in the pantheon of British climbing, after all did Dawes, Dunne, WHillians, Moon, Fawcett etc ever win a world championships? No, bloody punters, now if only they hadn't suffered in the limielight they might have made something of their climbing careers.

Most of us can only aspire to the odd moment in the sun, you seem to want people to suffer in the cellar like that other failure Malcolm Smith (no world champ = looser (sic))

What passing plaudits for those that fall like punters, only the passing anger of a failed climber and the stuttering of keyboards can snuff out their aspirations.

[abarro81]

So, what's significant for UK climbers then?
Specialist:
F8c+ (women 8b+) 8b+ o/s

Irrespective of how high you want to set your bar, that would need tweaking to either 8c+rp/8bos or 9a/8b+, as there are 20-30 brits who've climbed 8c+ but only 3 for 8b+ os (? - McClure, Bolger, Pearson plus Hamer on flash). In fact, with the tweak the RPing is still overrepresented. I wonder if that would be a global trend too or not? I saw an interesting interview with andrada recently where he was saying he finds it weird that you get people who RP 8c and harder but only onsight up to about 7c!

[a dense loner]

Sport climbing is being used as an example since it's the easiest thing to quantify, well it's not at all but we don't want to get involved with the nuances of placing gear and headspace etc.
Sloper the names you have mentioned are better known than any others, in their own arena, why is this? Quite simply because they were the best, or among the best. What are you comparing? I don't understand. Say moon did 8c 25 years ago and it was in the mags, big news obviously. You wouldn't then have the mags running a full spread on a.n.other doing a 7c, it would be mentioned in passing certainly but it's not by any stretch of the imagination big news. Nor is it out of order for someone to suggest it's not. It's also nothing to do with the person suggesting it's not news that their climbing standard is found to be lacking by others which happens so often. For instance I don't do routes, in general I'm pretty shit for the effort I put in, does this mean I don't know if a routes newsworthy and I'm not qualified to comment on it? No it doesn't.

[gme]

Thats because a couple of our young lads are getting very close to breaking the magical barrier and running under 10 secs is world class. World standards for under 16s are in the low 10s. I think less than 100 people have ever done it and only 5 brits, so its probably more akin to 9a+ or even harder. Getting close is like doing 9a and therefore newsworthy.

To compare this scenario to youths nearly breaking 10 secs shows your ignorance to both climbing and sprinting. Doing 8b isnt even average club level athletics 8c just about gets you in the county team 9a and the media might just start noticing you.

[gme]

So, what's significant for UK climbers then?
Specialist:
F8c+ (women 8b+) 8b+ o/s

Irrespective of how high you want to set your bar, that would need tweaking to either 8c+rp/8bos or 9a/8b+, as there are 20-30 brits who've climbed 8c+ but only 3 for 8b+ os (? - McClure, Bolger, Pearson plus Hamer on flash). In fact, with the tweak the RPing is still overrepresented. I wonder if that would be a global trend too or not? I saw an interesting interview with andrada recently where he was saying he finds it weird that you get people who RP 8c and harder but only onsight up to about 7c!

I think there has always been around a 1 1/2 -2 grade gap between onsight and redpoint which is true for the ones mentioned above (other than ed who we all know could do 9a if he tired one properly). If you dont have that gap i guess its because you dont spend time trying both aspects of the sport.

[Oldmanmatt]

Thats because a couple of our young lads are getting very close to breaking the magical barrier and running under 10 secs is world class. World standards for under 16s are in the low 10s. I think less than 100 people have ever done it and only 5 brits, so its probably more akin to 9a+ or even harder. Getting close is like doing 9a and therefore newsworthy.

To compare this scenario to youths nearly breaking 10 secs shows your ignorance to both climbing and sprinting. Doing 8b isnt even average club level athletics 8c just about gets you in the county team 9a and the media might just start noticing you.

Aren't you here talking about mainstream media noticing (in which case 9c wouldn't get you more than a 10sec spot on "The One Show")?

This wasn't a News at Ten article, it's a forum.

Poor lad that made the post will probably never stick his head over the parapet again...

I hope Jim has gained enough attention from all this to attract some support. That young sprinter that Sloper mentioned is probably getting way more.

So, raising the profile of local achievement, that might not rank highly on the world stage and may have a detrimental head swell effect on the achiever; might also garner them some support/sponsorship.

This in turn, will upset "Climber group x" because that's just commercialising the sport...

Funny thing is, UKB usually achieves far more consensus than the other channel; yet in this thread the differences in almost everyone's definition of almost every aspect of the sport is laid bare.

And if we don't agree on what our own sport is, the mainstream media will never get it.

I've got a 16 year old training here, who consistently Boulders at 7C, outside, in a session. At the rate he has improved over the year, I see no reason not to pick up his first 8A outdoors by spring.
But we give him a ton of shit, because more than 8 moves in a row and he needs three weeks to recover...

Horses for courses.

[Muenchener]

And if we don't agree on what our own sport is, the mainstream media will never get it.

A feature not a bug, surely?