[moose]

I was a Trimix addict for many years,

As an ignoramus, I had to resort to googling to clarify your email....

Trimix (injection)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Trimix is an injectable three-drug prescribed medication used to treat erectile dysfunction.

apologies for lowering the tone!

[gme]

Ambition that might have driven a climber towards significant ascents may be more easily satisfied by earning the respect of a clique of top climbers. My list of who I consider the best climbers in the UK would have significant differences from a list of the most accomplished - i.e. the best on paper. History will favour the latter.
[/quote]

Sometimes I wonder if we are talking about/ participating in the same hobby/pastime/ sport. And then I realise that we are not.
I would suggest that the very nature of the type of climbers that we are talking about( sport climbers, sponsored, British team members, blog writers, social media users) are more in line with my view of the sport, to which my points were directed, than yours.
I am not saying one is better than the other but I never expected you to agree with anything I posted.

[leah]

Awesome effort Jim. Having been on this route to try it myself and watching the video of him doing it.... I'm Impressed at the ease he does the boulder problem.
Whatever the grade and whatever people think on what should be accepted as newsworthy for a BRIT on a UK FORUM,.... This ascent deserves a hats off and unless you've been on the route in question, I'm not sure you'll fully understand.
I know UKCLIMBING and UKBOULDERING report on international news but I also enjoy reading on the developments of our country men and country women's performances of any age.
On and upwards Jim. 

[Oldmanmatt]

I was a Trimix addict for many years,

As an ignoramus, I had to resort to googling to clarify your email....

Trimix (injection)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Trimix is an injectable three-drug prescribed medication used to treat erectile dysfunction.

apologies for lowering the tone!

At my age I'd probably get more from that definition than the breathing gas...

[moose]

any excuse.... "the viagra is for my angina".....

[abarro81]

My list of who I consider the best climbers in the UK would have significant differences from a list of the most accomplished - i.e. the best on paper. History will favour the latter.

This intrigues me. What do you value in terms of being the best, if not accomplishment of some sort? I can see that the relative importance of different accomplishments will be different from different perspectives,and that grades might not reflect this accurately,  but are you saying that you actually value some idea of 'talent' or 'potential' more highly? Your list of the best might very well be another's list of those with the most wasted potential... To me, talent means f all until it's converted.

[petejh]

To me, talent means f all until it's converted.

...into 8a.nu points. 

[Wood FT]

My list of who I consider the best climbers in the UK would have significant differences from a list of the most accomplished - i.e. the best on paper. History will favour the latter.

This intrigues me. What do you value in terms of being the best

I think it was Rolph Harris in the climbing film Progression who said -

"you can only be the best if you compete with the best and say hey best! I am the best'

It's a mantra I tell myself every morning.

[Johnny Brown]

Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. Most posting above I'd guess to consider sport climbing to be the blue riband event. But what distance? Gav probably believes short power routes are the ultimate, Alex probably longer routes. But this is a bouldering forum, so we should probably consider all sport irrelevant stamina plods. If we were in the US long granite routes might be seen as the ultimate, in Scotland you're irrelevant unless you do some mixed. E.g. I'm sure Hazel could tell us if freeing the Pre-Muir was harder than Spanish 8c. Is that the answer - or should we be more objective and consider how many people have done each, or wait for a consensus to arise as with grades?

Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.

Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?

[Fiend]

The latter, because onsighting is gooooood, but also the latter should pull his finger out, if he can do 8c in a few days without specific training for it, he should bloody well be able to do 9a over a year. Thus he's theoretically the best by the standards of the first climber too.

[abarro81]

You're still talking about accomplishments, just deciding how much value to place on them.. E.g. max grade vs being consistent, being an all rounder etc. I think perhaps your first post was a bit unclear and my interpretation of it wasn't how you meant it.

[Johnny Brown]

Ah okay, that might explain Gav's post which I don't get.

The point is climber A will get in the news. If he is canny, sticks with it and does the right route each year he will become highly regarded as a top climber. Climber B is likely to have the full respect of his peers but is unlikely to become famous unless he changes his approach. Somewhere down the line they get tied together on an international meet, and onlookers are amazed when climber A struggles to even second climber B.

[abarro81]

I agree with that, I suspect gav does too. It was just the way you phrased it made it sound different.

[Oldmanmatt]

Ah okay, that might explain Gav's post which I don't get.

The point is climber A will get in the news. If he is canny, sticks with it and does the right route each year he will become highly regarded as a top climber. Climber B is likely to have the full respect of his peers but is unlikely to become famous unless he changes his approach. Somewhere down the line they get tied together on an international meet, and onlookers are amazed when climber A struggles to even second climber B.

So...

If A, two years down the road, gets FA of the worlds first 9c?

They are of equal value.

The driven, singleminded, climber or the "Climber's climber"; each to be respected for their achievements.

When I said earlier " I surrender, I can't fight fog"; it was because I realised almost everyone who posted had a different definition of "Harder", of "good", or even "grade".

I was frankly, narrowly, thinking of the technical grade at the crux(s), I hadn't (stupidly) considered linking of multiple "easier" moves into one "harder" overall route. I guess I've just been bouldering for too long.

I can't help that feeling that that is not so much climbing "harder" as just doing more of it. But that's a personal feeling and not an objective measure.

[Johnny Brown]

everyone who posted had a different definition of "Harder", of "good", or even "grade"

Exactly.

I can't help that feeling that that is not so much climbing "harder" as just doing more of it

The classic English view. For most of the rest of the world, they view short routes as not so much climbing harder as doing less.

[dave]

Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. Most posting above I'd guess to consider sport climbing to be the blue riband event. But what distance? Gav probably believes short power routes are the ultimate, Alex probably longer routes. But this is a bouldering forum, so we should probably consider all sport irrelevant stamina plods. If we were in the US long granite routes might be seen as the ultimate, in Scotland you're irrelevant unless you do some mixed. E.g. I'm sure Hazel could tell us if freeing the Pre-Muir was harder than Spanish 8c. Is that the answer - or should we be more objective and consider how many people have done each, or wait for a consensus to arise as with grades?

Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.

Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?

The best is the one having the most fun.

[Stu Littlefair]

Why is no-one listening to Guy? He was right - he solved it all.

"It's really great if you do hard outdoor climbing. But you cannot say you're the best. The only way you can say you're the best is, if you compete with the best, and show the best - I'm the best."

[Lopez]

Ah, but if the best don't compete then the best in the competition has not competed with the best and thus they can say they are the best amongst the maybe not so best who partook in a competition that claims to show the best who may not in fact be the best because the best are doing hard outdoor bouldering.

...or something 

[gme]

Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.

Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?
[/quote]

Only just got round to replying to this as been out of UK.
Easy answer to that one JB climber A is the better climber. Anyone climbing 9a would be able to do 8A on grit or onsight E7 with a small amount of application if they wanted to do so (not sure about the mixed stuff but it really is a different activity in my mind, you might as well say got a single figure handicap in golf). However Climber B is miles away from doing 9a.

Your version of who is the best climber and mine will never align as we err towards different things being important. I was talking about what is news and in the above scenario i still think that what climber A has done is news, what climber B has done isnt. As a guess i would suggest that you could find someone who has done the latter in the UK this year but not bothered writing it up (dave Mc), but none of the former.

[cowboyhat]

My list of who I consider the best climbers in the UK would have significant differences from a list of the most accomplished - i.e. the best on paper. History will favour the latter.

Go on then lets see the list.



As an aside I spoke to Jim about this thread, he's a bit bemused by it all. None the less pleased for breaking into a new grade, and doing a classic route. The crime of judging this as relevant news was of course committed by some other young internet amateur. 

[Johnny Brown]

Your version of who is the best climber and mine will never align as we err towards different things being important

For me, if they were to climb together, it's the one who would burn the other one off most of the time. Even if s/he has a weaker CV.

[cowboyhat]

I'm not so sure the lists would differ so much or involve a 'weaker CV' since a lot of those who've trained enough to climb hard sport in the UK are also renowned all rounders: Caff, Bransby, Mcloed, Pasquill, O P-Rob, Buys etc





(Obviously loads from Abroad too, not least the worlds best climber, but I'm not very good at remembering names for the purposes of a list etc.)

[cofe]

Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. Most posting above I'd guess to consider sport climbing to be the blue riband event. But what distance? Gav probably believes short power routes are the ultimate, Alex probably longer routes. But this is a bouldering forum, so we should probably consider all sport irrelevant stamina plods. If we were in the US long granite routes might be seen as the ultimate, in Scotland you're irrelevant unless you do some mixed. E.g. I'm sure Hazel could tell us if freeing the Pre-Muir was harder than Spanish 8c. Is that the answer - or should we be more objective and consider how many people have done each, or wait for a consensus to arise as with grades?

Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.

Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?

Jerry.

[Sloper]

Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an Olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.

Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?

Only just got round to replying to this as been out of UK.
Easy answer to that one JB climber A is the better climber. Anyone climbing 9a would be able to do 8A on grit or onsight E7 with a small amount of application if they wanted to do so (not sure about the mixed stuff but it really is a different activity in my mind, you might as well say got a single figure handicap in golf). However Climber B is miles away from doing 9a.

Your version of who is the best climber and mine will never align as we err towards different things being important. I was talking about what is news and in the above scenario i still think that what climber A has done is news, what climber B has done isnt. As a guess i would suggest that you could find someone who has done the latter in the UK this year but not bothered writing it up (dave Mc), but none of the former.
[/quote]

If you think that climber A is the best then I despair, and I would suggest you don't really understand climbing.

Climbing is not track athletics where 'the best' is measured in fractions of a second and also using the same analogy you're talking shite, news of young athletes running >10 second 100m & etc make the news on a regular basis. 

[Ru]

Only just got round to replying to this as been out of UK.
Easy answer to that one JB climber A is the better climber. Anyone climbing 9a would be able to do 8A on grit or onsight E7 with a small amount of application if they wanted to do so (not sure about the mixed stuff but it really is a different activity in my mind, you might as well say got a single figure handicap in golf). However Climber B is miles away from doing 9a.

Your version of who is the best climber and mine will never align as we err towards different things being important. I was talking about what is news and in the above scenario i still think that what climber A has done is news, what climber B has done isnt. As a guess i would suggest that you could find someone who has done the latter in the UK this year but not bothered writing it up (dave Mc), but none of the former.

I doubt climber B really is miles away from 9a, just a couple of years training. Climber B could easily have been Jordan a few years ago, apart from the mixed bit. There's also a pretty good chance that climber A could become all round proficient if he ditched the training and went climbing for a couple of years. In fact I'd say that they're probably pretty closely matched in terms of raw aptitude.