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Don't go running (Read 25335 times)

rodma

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#25 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 01:06:39 pm
Quote from: Fiend link=topic=24690.msg458251#msg458251
  It might not be the optimal complementary exercise but it's got to be a damn sight better than not doing it.

Why?

Barrows, your "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude to other people's training/active lifestyles can be a little bit insufferable at times. I understand that you climb well and train effectively but that does not mean that your approach is correct for everybody. We are young and, if you are anything like me, find it absolutely impossible to put on weight - the climber's nemesis - no matter what we choose to stuff into our faces.

The UKB demographic is "fat old dads, happily married with kids, waffling on about high class sheffield restaurants and stuff". If they're not fat already, then they will be if they stop the CV! If they haven't had a triple bypass already, then they will do should they stop the aerobic exercise! If you want to get good at climbing, you've got to take care of the basics first and one of the fundamentals is being lean. Even if they're not that keen on getting really really strong on the rock, maybe they just like to complement their climbing activities with a little bit of cardio to stop themselves from dropping down dead once they hit 75.

Lighten up, for goodness' sake.
For interest's sake only, cardio makes no difference to my waistline at all and I fit the demographic you describe.

Whilst cardio may make me actually healthier, it has the downsides of being boring, making me sleepy and a lot hungrier than normal. That's aside from the obvious downsides specifically associated with running like the pain it causes to my mashed ankle, gives me tighter calfs and hamstrings etc. despite rigorous stretching.


tomtom

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#26 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 01:36:43 pm

Quote from: Fiend link=topic=24690.msg458251#msg458251
  It might not be the optimal complementary exercise but it's got to be a damn sight better than not doing it.

Why?

Barrows, your "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude to other people's training/active lifestyles can be a little bit insufferable at times. I understand that you climb well and train effectively but that does not mean that your approach is correct for everybody. We are young and, if you are anything like me, find it absolutely impossible to put on weight - the climber's nemesis - no matter what we choose to stuff into our faces.

The UKB demographic is "fat old dads, happily married with kids, waffling on about high class sheffield restaurants and stuff". If they're not fat already, then they will be if they stop the CV! If they haven't had a triple bypass already, then they will do should they stop the aerobic exercise! If you want to get good at climbing, you've got to take care of the basics first and one of the fundamentals is being lean. Even if they're not that keen on getting really really strong on the rock, maybe they just like to complement their climbing activities with a little bit of cardio to stop themselves from dropping down dead once they hit 75.

Lighten up, for goodness' sake.

are you out on the piss with Sloper - have gone to the bar for a round (Daquari's with a malt chaser no doubt) and your phone has been hijacked by the afore mentioned UKB league beagle? Woof.

abarro81

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#27 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 01:44:57 pm
I'm not quite sure how a 1 word answer produces a 2 paragraph rant and I'm the one who needs to lighten up?  :lol: All I asked was 'why has it got to be better than doing nothing?' (In the context of getting better at climbing rocks)

I'm aware the same shit doesn't work for everyone.
E.g. On this very topic, biking makes my legs big and me heavy; biking makes my mate Ed light.

I'm a full stone lighter than I was in my late teens, from concious dieting, and weight goes up 1/2 a stone plus easily for me within a month of getting gluttonous (at which point I get it back under control). Running has never seemed to make a difference to my weight in either direction, irrespective of doing lots, a small amount, or none. I'm very much of the view that if you're gonna do it then do it as 20min active rest rather than trying hard. If I commuted by car everywhere then maybe I would go back to doing gentle runs on rest days; I quite like going for a (non-epic) walk on rest days. I thought lwo intensity steady state cardio was supposed to be fairly mediocre for weight control anyway?

I don;t care what the demographic is. This is ukb not ukc, I shouldn't have to proofread my posts 3 times to check they wont piss people off.

I still quite like whoever it was (Betchel?) that said something like "if running makes you better at climbing then you're shit at climbing". Or maybe that was about crossfit. Probably the same either way.

p.s. this was a thread about running for climbing, not running 'cos it's fun. If it's fun then do it for fun. Like partying. Though that's good for extreme weightloss too.

Fiend

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#28 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 01:46:28 pm
I shouldn't have to proofread my posts 3 times to check they wont piss people off.
You should have proof-read that "Why?" post at least. I'm sure slackline could find 20 linguistical errors with it.

abarro81

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#29 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 01:47:54 pm
Touche.
[I proof read that but can't be bothered to find an accent]

tomtom

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#30 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 01:50:00 pm

Touche.
[I proof read that but can't be bothered to find an accent]

Louche ;)

abarro81

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#31 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 01:54:00 pm
Douche   :P

tomtom

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#32 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 01:56:55 pm

Nibile

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#33 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 02:06:42 pm
I'll never thank myself enough for quitting running, cycling and the likes.
I was an avid runner (>1000 km a year, plus weights, cycling, etc) and I was shit at climbing. I'm still shit, but at least I'm stronger now than when I was 25, and have probably increased my physical form every year in the last 15 years.
In fact, I'm in the best shape of my life right now.
I get less pumped on the few routes I do, also.
The message is simple, and has already been told: running won't improve your climbing. It will also impair muscle growth, strength, won't protect neither your arteries nor your heart and will probably result in a higher fat percentage.
But hey, at least it will cost a lot in terms of time, toil and suffering! Who could resist?

More on it here:
http://www.t-nation.com/training/cardio-kills

jwi

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#34 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 03:50:15 pm
It is quite difficult to do an onsight of an overhanging 40m pitch without getting a cardio workout... So you suggest that a climber should simply never try?

Also if big muscles were important, why are Adam Ondra and Alex Megos the two best climbers in the world?

Also, if anyone think that 75 min of running, or biking to work, three long-endurance session at the wall, or two medium-long apporaches to a crag every week is ruining their athletic potential as climbers they are somewhat extreme.

^And the funny thing is that I'm not even attacking the straw man here (!)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 04:02:55 pm by jwi »

petejh

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#35 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 04:14:47 pm
It is quite difficult to do an onsight of an overhanging 40m pitch without getting a cardio workout... So you suggest that a climber should simply never try?
I don't think he's suggesting that, rather he's suggesting that running is, at best, a harmless adjunct to training for climbing in the same way that climbing is at best a harmless adjunct to training for a marathon. But at worst either activity is a distraction and an energy drain on the other if you're lucky/disciplined enough to have reached such an elite level of running or climbing performance that you needed to make massive investments in specific training to make further gains. In your example above - you're right, a 40m enduro pitch gives a cardio workout - which can be trained most effectively by replicating climbing a 40m overhanging pitch to simulate the aerobic demands. Bottom line is climbing doesn't need the type of aerobic training that running provides.

Also if big muscles were important, why are Adam Ondra and Alex Megos the two best climbers in the world?
Sharma and Midtbo spring to mind as being half decent muscleheads. Surely there are others.


I think this thread has run its course.

Nibile

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#36 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 04:25:43 pm
It is quite difficult to do an onsight of an overhanging 40m pitch without getting a cardio workout... So you suggest that a climber should simply never try?

Also if big muscles were important, why are Adam Ondra and Alex Megos the two best climbers in the world?

Also, if anyone think that 75 min of running, or biking to work, three long-endurance session at the wall, or two medium-long apporaches to a crag every week is ruining their athletic potential as climbers they are somewhat extreme.

^And the funny thing is that I'm not even attacking the straw man here (!)

How many times did you fall off because you were out of breath, and how many because your forearms were pumped?
Running won't improve your climbing stamina, you still won't onsight that 40 meters route. It's Dave MacLeod that says so in its book.
What many climbers do, is running in order to lose weight. But then they climb their projects, not because they ran, but because they are lighter.





tommytwotone

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#37 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 04:43:04 pm
Quote from: Fiend link=topic=24690.msg458251#msg458251
  It might not be the optimal complementary exercise but it's got to be a damn sight better than not doing it.

Why?
....[size=78%]The UKB demographic is "fat old dads, happily married with kids, waffling on about high class sheffield restaurants and stuff"...[/size]



Hang about - I'm not even married. And I've not been to a Sheffield restaurant in ages.


Should I de-register my account?




petejh

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#38 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 05:06:04 pm
It depends, are you fat?

cowboyhat

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#39 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 05:47:50 pm
  'high class sheffield restaurants"

Oxymoron.


http://www.t-nation.com/training/cardio-kills

Great link Nibs, I've always thought it was a bad idea and this is all the ammo I need for the triathlon evangelists at work.

Why is everyone doing triathlons? They need a proper hobby.

moose

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#40 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 06:03:43 pm
one of the headings from nibile's link is "Enough Cortisol to Kill a Moose"
.... I was too scared to read anymore but now I'm taking no chances.  My gait will henceforth become even more shuffly and uncertain than ever.  If you see me at the crag and are perturbed by my meanderings, don't worry, I haven't had a stroke, I'm just warding off free-radicals!

fried

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#41 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 06:05:00 pm

http://www.t-nation.com/training/cardio-kills

Great link Nibs, I've always thought it was a bad idea and this is all the ammo I need for the triathlon evangelists at work.

Why is everyone doing triathlons? They need a proper hobby.
[/quote]

I stopped reading at 'enough Cortisol to kill  Moose'.

Seriously, I think when some people talk about running, they mean jogging. I used to speed-walk faster than some of those lazy fuckers. Who knew they'd be the only ones alive at 60!

tomtom

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#42 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 06:10:45 pm
MrsTT runs - normally a couple of 1/2 hour jogs a week with a neighbour.. as its the only exercise she gets (aside from stomping up and down the stairs like an angry wilderbeast) Its probably a good thing for her general well being.. not too much to do any long term damage - but enough to raise the pulse for a while...

A few people at work run - marathons, triathlons etc.. I don't think they necessarily do it because its good for them - I think they go because they enjoy it and/or it provides a release from the daily grind...

I never run.

At 44 my knees, ankles, hamstrings, achilles, feet, legs, hips etc.. all seem to be in fine fettle...

Though my hands will probably get fucked over with arthritis in the next 20 years :)

Fiend

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#43 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 06:15:47 pm
I don't think he's suggesting that, rather he's suggesting that running is, at best, a harmless adjunct to training for climbing in the same way that climbing is at best a harmless adjunct to training for a marathon.
Surely a quite different comparison. The general benefits of running - cv, fitness, blood flow, heart rate, weight management etc - are likely to be generally beneficial for being fit for climbing. Whilst having strong fingers from a good beastmaking session is unlikely to have any benefits for marathons.

I think once again people are confusing being a dedicated runner doing long intense runs with a view to marathons and triathlons and other such bullshit, with being some who mostly trains hard for climbing and does semi-regular light runs for all the reasons above along with giving the arms time to recover.

Sasquatch

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#44 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 07:06:22 pm
FFS

If you like climbing and climb a few times a week, and potter around a bit, then sure a bit of pottering around running will be fine and not impact your climbing. 

If you have x hours a week to train and can do climbing specific stuff for x hours, then you should do so. If you have X hours and can only do x-2 of climbing training, then sure do 2 hours of running as long as it doesn't negatively impact your climbing recovery.   

The article is funny because it mentioned Jonathon Seigrist and his running and recent send of biographie, but they don't note that he quit running in his most recent training cycle in preparation for going to do biographie.  If you listen to his podcast on Training Beta, he talks about the fact that while he loves running, he was convinced to quit for a while, and he felt it was part of what let him take that next step. 



bigtuboflard

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#45 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 07:09:04 pm
As others have said on here, running is a great way to keep the weight in check, in particular if you are rubbish like I am at watching what I eat. It is also a very quick way of burning lots of energy and hence calories in a relatively (for me) enjoyable way, albeit trail running only, road running bores me to tears.

Do I run to improve my climbing? Directly, no. I don't think it makes my climbing stamina any better. It does however indirectly help overall fitness and as said above, low weight, which gives me a fighting chance of getting up stuff.

The one thing I do struggle with is balancing time between climbing and running. Being time poor I find I get more out of 45 minutes running than I'd ever do trying to squeeze a little bit of bouldering in the equivalent time. Plus you can run in the dark when its raining.

petejh

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#46 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 07:21:16 pm
I don't think he's suggesting that, rather he's suggesting that running is, at best, a harmless adjunct to training for climbing in the same way that climbing is at best a harmless adjunct to training for a marathon.
Surely a quite different comparison. The general benefits of running - cv, fitness, blood flow, heart rate, weight management etc - are likely to be generally beneficial for being fit for climbing. Whilst having strong fingers from a good beastmaking session is unlikely to have any benefits for marathons.

I think once again people are confusing being a dedicated runner doing long intense runs with a view to marathons and triathlons and other such bullshit, with being some who mostly trains hard for climbing and does semi-regular light runs for all the reasons above along with giving the arms time to recover.

I agree. Which is why I wrote 'at best it's a harmless adjunct to climbing' (as is climbing to running, any running).
edit: basically what Sasquatch said - it depends on the goal.

Doylo

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#47 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 07:47:08 pm
Thanks to this thread I'm never going for a run again. Thank fuck  :2thumbsup:

Monolith

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#48 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 09:03:43 pm
Tuppence worth - running makes me lighter and whatever finger strength abilities I have, better. I must admit that even after 2.5 weeks away from climbing and replacing these sessions with distance running only, I feel like I've experienced substantial muscle wastage. I'm tired of being hench anyway. All my heros have the physique of a gnat.

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#49 Re: Don't go running
September 05, 2014, 10:54:21 pm
Running worked for the G...

I find it hard to believe that anyone who reads this thread or the associated articles, will be overwhelmingly effected in either positively or negatively by going running.

From what I seem to remember hearing and reading from these 'worlds best climbers' (but are they having the most fun?), both Sharma and Ondra have claimed the best training for climbing is climbing.

If you cannot climb for whatever reason, then I doubt running will harm your climbing, regardless of the sort-off-science posted above.

From what I understand, the general academic understanding of climbing (sports science end) is so infantile (particularly compared to perhaps more researched Olympic sports like certain forms of lifting), that no one really knows if things like periodisation actually work as 'sort of rules of thumb'.

Hell, no one is really good enough at climbing for any real detail in the kinds of observations in articles like those posted above, to be measured and theory proven or not empirically. If I am incorrect, then please show me otherwise.

If you are dead keen on getting into weight control using an endurance sport, get a copy of racing weight, as suggested by Dave Macleod.

 

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