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Gym sessions. (Read 12354 times)

chris j

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#25 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 07:17:57 am
The general athletic benchmarks that will prepare you for nearly everything are:

Sub 7min 2k row
Sub 20min 10k row


That's a fair increase in speed going from the 2k to the 10k! I presume you mean sub 20min 5k...

Falling Down

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#26 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 08:25:28 am
 :slap: whoops! Yes of course...

seankenny

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#27 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 09:07:56 am
Without knowing what your strength and fitness is like and what you're capable of it's really hard to give any meaningful advice at all.  However, variation is good, so do something different each and every time you go to the gym.

For a warm up.
Rowing is better than cycling (2k on the C2 around 8:30 is a good warm up)
Some squats (just normal squats) to get the legs warm.

Compound lifts:
5 sets of 5 Clean & Jerk OR Snatch - (you'll figure out what weight as the first set should feel relatively easy and the third one tough, don't worry about taking weight off to complete the 5x5 as the important thing is the cumulative weight you pick off the floor and pit over your head with good form twenty five times)

OR

Easy dead brain stuff if you're too tired/not stable enough for compounds.
5x5 Deadlifts OR
Kettlebell swing ladder 1 swing (5 seconds rest) 2 swings (5 seconds rest).. Up to 20 swings and then back down again.rest

OR

You can't go wrong with keeping it dead simple e.g.

10k row for time (under 20 mins is good) (endurance)
Aiming for a sub 7 minute 2k row over a couple of months is a great power endurance goal and will do your fitness wonders.
200 kettlebell swings
100 TGUs
Prison Burpees (1 burpee (rest), 2 burpees (rest), 3 burpees (rest).. Up to 20 burpees (rest) then back down again from 19 to 1


Hi Ben, all this is really useful - I'm currently working in South Sudan and don't have access to a climbing wall, so I'm in the gym to train a bit. I've never learnt how to do deadlifts, clean and jerk, etc, and figure this isn't the time to learn. Any suggestions as for suitable replacement weight lifting exercises, other than than the rowing/burpees/TGUs?

Also, on TGU's I've read conflicting things. Some say you need perfect form and to do it one way only, others suggest you can get up pretty much as you like. Any thoughts?

Falling Down

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#28 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 10:14:40 am
I'm at work at the mo but will reply later.

Side runner I don't know the SCIENCE but the FS activates more muscle groups than the BS, demands better form and a deeper squat and is part of the C&J movement hence preferred over the BS..

lagerstarfish

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#29 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 10:35:37 am
it used to be the thought that 10 reps of stuff was in the range for increasing muscle size - won't this make Fiend heavier?

also - isn't the modern fashion to burn fat by low reps high weight (plus sensible diet which avoids popular fast food outlets)?

is there a facility for doing dips? they seem to be boredom-friendly and possibly useful for topping out strength

SiWitcher

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#30 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 11:22:01 am
Side runner I don't know the SCIENCE but the FS activates more muscle groups than the BS, demands better form and a deeper squat and is part of the C&J movement hence preferred over the BS..

Hi,
To correct this slightly and expand further, the FS emphasises different areas to the BS (FS = more quads, and more mid/upper back, and less glutes and hamstrings). A FS also needs more flexibility in the wrists, arms and shoulders to hold the bar in a good rack position (with elbows high). If you don't maintain a tight upright position in a FS then you may buckle forwards on the way down, and drop the bar, with hilarious results.

As to why one would do FS instead of BS, it depends on what your goals and strengths are. If you're weak at FS or have never done them, then they may give good gains and a good contrast to BS. If you're fine at FS and your FS 1RM is already at around 80% of your BS 1RM, then it may be better to spend more time doing BS since BS lets you lift more weight and build more strength all over. Most olympic lifting programmes put more time into BS than FS, since it's your BS 1rm that ultimately determines your upper limit in the FS, C&J and Snatch (with the big proviso that all major flexibility and technique issues have been ironed out).

As a rule of thumb, an 'average' olympic lifter will maintain these (ball-park only) 1RM ratios:
FS = 80-85% of BS
Clean = 80-85% of FS
Snatch = 80-85% of Clean
though plenty of exceptions exist.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 11:30:10 am by SiWitcher »

Fiend

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#31 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 11:55:40 am
FD - okay yes lots of radical changes there. Bear in mind that my gym stuff is strictly to supplement / complement actual climbing training and climbing days out, rather than to be a gym monster. Can you give me some general principles that you're basing that new workout on??


Webbo - you're a choad, there are lots of different ball-shaped things in a gym. Yes okay I LMGTFYed it and that's what I use for my one-legged planks. Not quite sure how that is going to work as a plank tuck unless sidewinder means carefully tip-toeing it towards my body.


2-Tru - don't be fooled there is very little pleasant about my going to the gym except for some of the lifting bits and the vague satisfaction that I've actually gone and done it.


Lagers - I too am wondering again about the low reps high weight thing vs the 10 reps for increasing muscle size. Having said that most of my 10 rep stuff is pull-ups or squat/deadlift/compound stuff which seems to be getting general approval?

Gus

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#32 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 12:10:19 pm
Some good advice and suggestions on here.

If it's a climbing related performance increase your after I'd definitely add in some climbing specific core stuff (front lever progressions, hanging leg raises, side leg raises/kicks and "windscreen wipers" or whatever they're called, 60-120 seconds of lying on your back with your legs straight and feet off the floor at various heights)

I know deadlifting is fun and rewarding as it's easy to feel good about moving shit loads of weight, but most climbers are pretty good at this anyway (if you're anywhere near 2X bodyweight you don't need any more for climbing and would be better spending the time on the above exercises) but not so good at proper climbing core exercises, ie. the "front" core muscles (abs, hip muscles etc)

The core exercises above are often good to add to the end of a climbing session, as they can work your upper body locking muscles quite hard too, so it means you can rest these n your non-climbing session.

I still think that bench pressing and shoulder has a place too, for working climbing antagonistic muscles. If you're that down on them then do your bench presses with dumbbells instead of a bar and see what you think.

Get psyched and get some techno on!!!
Gus


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#33 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 12:27:16 pm
seems to be getting general approval

kiss of death

Fiend

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#34 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 01:20:58 pm
Sorry Gus I have a 170+ bpm minimum limit whilst at the gym. Driving to it is a different matter tho  :yes:

Stubbs

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#35 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 01:43:47 pm
Not quite sure how that is going to work as a plank tuck unless sidewinder means carefully tip-toeing it towards my body.

I found this helpful

http://bit.ly/1tvRpps

Falling Down

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#36 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 01:51:01 pm
I'm really busy at work at the moment and completely swamped so it'll take some time to reply.  Fiend, it's not a workout, just some examples of different exercises to do at the gym...

Also, none of this stuff will make you a better climber but it might make you a bit stronger, allow more climbing time and prevent injury.

Fiend

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#37 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 02:01:23 pm
Thank you stubbsline, well done. Arsenugget!

No worries FD, any info at any time can be helpful.

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#38 Re: Gym sessions.
September 10, 2014, 09:24:40 pm
Sean - A good way to learn decent form for a TGU is to load the weight up.  Once it gets heavy the form finds itself and you can then drop it down once you've got the moves.  There are some decent vids online too.  How long are you out for?  When you come back pop over as I've started training again and have KBs and an Olympic barbell set in the yard so can show the limited amount I know (I did get some Oly lift training from a coach a few years back so know the basics).  As for weights in the gym I reckon the overhead squat is a great exercise that works the whole body and is great for climbers as it stretches the upper back and shoulders where we get tight.  . The gym will probably have a rack thing where you can do it safely.  Doing squats really helped my hip flexibility after years of failing to get bendier doing the normal stretches.

Fiend:  For me it's all about developing a good foundation of strength, power endurance and fitness to apply to anything whether it's climbing, surfing and occaisionly cycling.  The last two years have been pretty much a write off but I've got back into the work in the last couple of weeks and whilst it's hard and I'm a long way off where I was, the results are encouraging and the weight I've put on will come off pretty quick.  There's a great book by Dan John called Never Let Go that sort of spells it all out.  I'll take back what I said about bench pressing as it's good as Gus says, especially with heavy dumbbells.

Have fun

seankenny

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#39 Re: Gym sessions.
September 11, 2014, 09:32:32 am
Sean - A good way to learn decent form for a TGU is to load the weight up.  Once it gets heavy the form finds itself and you can then drop it down once you've got the moves.  There are some decent vids online too.  How long are you out for?  When you come back pop over as I've started training again and have KBs and an Olympic barbell set in the yard so can show the limited amount I know (I did get some Oly lift training from a coach a few years back so know the basics).  As for weights in the gym I reckon the overhead squat is a great exercise that works the whole body and is great for climbers as it stretches the upper back and shoulders where we get tight.  . The gym will probably have a rack thing where you can do it safely.  Doing squats really helped my hip flexibility after years of failing to get bendier doing the normal stretches.


Ben, thanks very much for the info and your kind offer. I'm back in a week so when I've recovered I'll get in touch and come over, that would be great :)

johnx2

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#40 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 01:19:23 pm
I go to the gym once a week or so, mostly for obvious general fitness training as well as training in-between wall sessions <snip>
- What could I leave out if I need/want to have a shorter section??
- What should I leave out or be wary of if I'm climbing the next day and don't want to be too tired??
- What other simple stuff could I add or replace, given the reasons stated initially??

What no powerballs?

I read this thread with interest as my workouts have got a bit stale, and it's all about vaguely holding it together for me these days. But I know a bit a about saving time in the gym as I don't like to spend longer there than I have to. That reads like a long moderate workout. If you're doing it for results you could shorten it a lot.

Start with core, which provides a good allover warm-up, then slam into strength thinking fewer better/less is more, and if you're on 170 bpm do circuits with no rests. this will make you breathe a bit whilst viewing the world through a pleasant red mist. After that a bit of lying down cardio's fine. Or just lying down. Anyway: core, quality strength and cardio in that order. Leave out the second strength session, as this won't achieve much beyond burning a few (and only a few) cals.

(In terms of exercises, pullups, dips, squats or deadlifts is a workout. I'd be wary of teaching myself olympic lifts, but then I've zero coordination.) 

And oh yeah never ever ever sit down and rest on a bench/machine.




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#41 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 02:22:33 pm
Start with core, which provides a good allover warm-up, then slam into strength

Really? So doing heavy squats etc. with all your trunk stabilisers nicely pre-fatigued is a good/safe idea? Not sure I find this entirely convincing.

a dense loner

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#42 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 03:30:11 pm
Fiend would find it hard to squat with the bar so I don't think tiring his core a little would make that much difference. That said I always do core at the end

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#43 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 04:13:05 pm
My entire body is pre-fatigued at the best of times...

I'm too knackered to do core at the end. I think of abs etc (what I mean by core, not fiddly balance stuff) as the most important bit of my workout, get it done and then get on to more motivating exercises.  But I'm no advert for staying injury free so what do I know? .

But anyway, even if situps etc takes a bit off what you can do in heavy power exercises, given the aim of Fiend's workout is all over multipurpose fitness, I don't think that reaching potential in at-the-limit squats is really the issue. You do lower weights when you do circuits, what with all the breathing and thinking you're going to die and all. There can't be many whose form doesn't suffer a bit, but if you want a quick allover workout that gets you in and out of the gym (difficult at busy times for sure) and is good for aerobic fitness and maintaining muscle, you can't beat it. But it won't make you a power-lifter.

I used to wear a belt for 'heavy' squats when I did them to save abs (heavy = getting to 2x bw tho bw was a bit less then and, as an indicator of lack of coordination or at least lack of fast twitch, my clean and jerk was half that...)

But there's a grand tradition of on the internet of lying about implausible gym exploits, so  when can we get to the topless shots? 



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#44 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 04:24:33 pm
I find things like front squats and weighted pull-ups (dumbbell between ankles) actually work the abs pretty hard, so I figure out I'm getting a fair amount of "core training" from them, and doing a few sets of dedicated core stuff afterwards is more of a finisher-offer.

a dense loner

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#45 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 05:14:42 pm
Dumbbells between ankles! I'm such an idiot and you're a genius meunchener!

Muenchener

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#46 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 05:31:39 pm
Well if you're in a gym not at the wall, and you don't have a weight vest, and you can't be arsed to bring a harness ... then you can get to about bw + 25kg before your ankles give out :)

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#47 Re: Gym sessions.
September 15, 2014, 12:59:15 pm
Fiend not sure these are OK for you if you have iffy legs but I found doing sets of calf raises on a 2in high edge with a couple of heavyish dumbbells useful (aim for the same total weight as winter sack plus bug boots, I use 20-40kg) as part of the prep for my Scottish winter climbing. Just aim to increase the maximum number of reps but keep the weight the same, good replicator of the approach walk-in/of front pointing calf burn. good form essential to get the burn.

+1 for max number of pull ups in a given time frame e.g. 10 mins, and compound sets of exercises. Anyone mention press ups??

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#48 Re: Gym sessions.
September 15, 2014, 01:44:37 pm
My current routine as I only have 1-2 times/week access to a climbing gym but everyday access to a fitness gym:

4 times/week:
- Flexibility(Stretching): ca. 9min
- Strength(bodyqweight): plank(1min)/pullups(5)/pushups(10)/dips(5) X 6/8 ca. 20min
- Strength(dumbbell): bicepsCurl(12kgx5)/tricepsCurl(10kgx5)/wristRoll(12kgx5)/shoulderPull(10kgx5)/chestButterfly(12kgx5)/squats(50kgx5) X 6/8 ca. 20min

Several/week:
- Flexibility/Balance(Tai Chi): Variations on simplified 24-form
- Endurance/Health(Running): Slow distance run (currently 6km./advance to 10miles)

Does it help my climbing? I'm sure the stretching and Tai Chi do. The rest just let's me feel more healthy and leaves me less complexes about my chicken chest  8).

Gus

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#49 Re: Gym sessions.
September 15, 2014, 02:11:42 pm
I find things like front squats and weighted pull-ups (dumbbell between ankles) actually work the abs pretty hard, so I figure out I'm getting a fair amount of "core training" from them,

I think this is the mistake a lot of climbers make. These aren't really working your climbing specific core at all. Do some front levers, half levers, straight leg raises, windscreen wipers or hanging side leg swings and you'll see the difference.

 

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