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Gym sessions. (Read 12353 times)

Fiend

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Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 01:50:47 pm
I go to the gym once a week or so, mostly for obvious general fitness training as well as training in-between wall sessions while I'm resting my skin/fingers.

The reasons I go, and do particular exercises, are:

1. Do exercises that are vaguely palatable so I will ACTUALLY GO AND DO THEM.
2. See 1.
3. See 1.
4. Perve at jiggly girls on the running machine.
5. Listen to really ruff drum and bass and industrial techno for a couple of hours with few distractions.
6. Do C.V. exercises I can manage to compensate for lack of running / hill-walking options
7. Do some leg exercises to compensate for lack of aerobic leg fitness.
8. Do some arm exercises that compliment climbing training (e.g. antagonistics or light arm exercises)
9. Do some relevant training (e.g. core, pull-ups)
10. Have varied exercises so I can keep going through a session.

Typical session:

3 x 12 pull-ups - to train my pure pulling ability as I've noticed my finger strength feels okay but my power-to-weight on bigger holds and lock-offs needs work.

3 x 10 medium weight deadlifts on machine - to prime my legs for rec. cycling (as recommended on here - some weights first to make CV more effective).

10 mins arm cycling - for general arm conditioning, a bit of CV, and feels good for shoulders.

Core workout of: - to train my core (and give me a break in between CV stuff), I've noticed the benefits of this already.

EITHER: 15 inclined sit-ups, 20 alternating other knee sit-ups, 15 sit-ups
OR: 1 minute plank with feet on squidgy ball, 2 x 1 minute plank with one foot on squidgy ball
OR: 10-15 crunch leg raises, 10-15 straight leg raises, 10-12 straight leg raises to 45' each side.

20 mins recumbent cycling - pure CV training and leg training.

Another core workout of whatever I didn't do previously - as before

10 mins recumbent cycling - as before

3 x 10 medium-heavy leg presses on machine - to strengthen my legs, make steep walking / scrambling sections easier, compensate for lack of leg fitness, and
a bit for rockovers too (Easy Trad...)


3 x 10 pullups - as before, usually exhausting at this point.

3 x 10 compound exercise of one motion clean & jerk into overhead squat - partly to work arms and shoulder presses, but mostly because it feels a very good general exercise, lots of muscles used and quickly exhausting even with low weights.

Occasionally I will throw in some weights instead of the other post-CV stuff.

...

Now then. Bearing in mind points 1. - 3. in why I do gym stuff, any sensible comments on this?? Please don't suggest stuff like "half your exercises are a waste of time, you should just go on the rowing machine and nothing else" because all that will do is ensure I'm bored out of my fucking mind and don't actually go to the gym. Ideas I'm actually interested in are:

- What could I leave out if I need/want to have a shorter section??
- What should I leave out or be wary of if I'm climbing the next day and don't want to be too tired??
- What other simple stuff could I add or replace, given the reasons stated initially??

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#1 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 02:03:25 pm
Moar core. If I read it right you're only doing 2 sets of core stuff for the whole sesh? If you're on the pull up par already you could do some knee to chest or L hangs on there.

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#2 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 02:13:00 pm
Fewer, heavier pull-ups?

Fiend

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#3 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 02:19:48 pm
Moar core. If I read it right you're only doing 2 sets of core stuff for the whole sesh? If you're on the pull up par already you could do some knee to chest or L hangs on there.

Can do - although I also tend to do core (2 x 1 min plans, 2 x 1 min superman planks) as part of my warm-up during bouldering sessions. When I'm on the bar I'm pretty fucked from my pull-ups but I could fit some more in somewhere.

Fewer, heavier pull-ups?

Possibly - although as a trad punter I tend to get some benefit of doing multiple reps, given half the time I need to crank it out it's after pulling up and down several times finding holds and gear ;). I'll see what the options are, but the main gym I go to has a horrible arc bar lat pull down machine, and I don't think there's options for weight belts.

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#4 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 02:54:14 pm
Fiend,
I'd leave anything climbing related for wall sessions (forearms training, etc), and I'd just go to the gym to get fucking strong.
Drop those rep/sets schemes that are good for nothing except putting up weight, and do few, big, heavy and possibly compound movements.
Train pulling power by doing front lever pulls (knees tucked in), I can assure you that when you'll be able to do one front lever pull up (straight arms, legs straight) you'll have no lock-off or pulling problems on rock.
Train SPEED. Speed is a fundamental part of power. Do explosive moves. Contrast training.
Don't cycle, don't leg press.
With a few heavy snatches, your legs will be done.
Work you CV capacity with weights. Farmer's Walks; partial rest sets with little weight and high reps, etc.
Basically, don't go to the gym to be weak. Go there to fucking crush the weights.
You want to be a machine.

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#5 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 03:05:58 pm
Nibs, sorry, I should have mentioned that my primary overall goal with physical training is for 1. Trad climbing and 2. General fitness to keep me healthy (absolutely essential given my leg situation) and enable me to get to crags easier.

I get the points you're making but I'm not sure that's optimised for, say, walking into Stac Pollaidh without dying and then feeling perky enough to do Expecting To Fly once I'm there. I did do heavy weight stuff a couple of years ago but didn't feel the fitness benefits.


I'm not a total pussy though, I do keep training bouldering indoors and mix it up with some max hangs / slot 10 pull-ups on the beastmaker ;)


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#6 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 03:54:49 pm
Uh, oh. 
I never meant to say that you are soft.
Sorry for the misunderstanding anyway.

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#7 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 04:52:03 pm
Can I go to the gym and just drink coffee and talk to pretty women interesting people?

Or is that defeating the object? ;)

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#8 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 07:14:10 pm
Thinking along the lines of smaller tweaks to the program:

Move the compound exercise at the end much earlier.  Generally speaking you prioritize lifts by complexity, with the more complex lift going first, followed by less complex. 

For overall fitness, I like to do mixed circuits so you keep yourself working a bit more consistently with less sitting around between sets. For example, do:

3 x
12 pull-ups
10 medium weight deadlifts on machine
3 mins arm cycling
15 inclined sit-ups, 20 alternating other knee sit-ups, 15 sit-ups

Rest a couple of minutes, then:
3 x
10 compound exercise of one motion clean & jerk into overhead squat
1min Stretching

Rest a couple of minutes, then:
3x
10 medium-heavy leg presses on machine
10 mins recumbent cycling
10 pullups
1 min Plank


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#9 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 09:50:36 pm
Matt
This all seems a bit lightweight. You are laying on your back pedalling for 20 mins to get you fit enough to hit some highland crag in reasonable shape to climb at your best. It's 20 mins to High Neb you need to do a fair bit more, also you will be carrying a sack full of gear.
A realistic training session would be 90 mins on the stepper with a rucksack then a session down the wall.
As for pull-ups 3x12 are you taking the piss. If these are on one arm maybe, do you actually get sweat on with this training.
You need to do what Nibs suggest plus the aerobic stuff as the that's what seems to be what causes you the most angst.
Imagine you are on a good shake out and you check the holds out on the crux and you realise you could do a one armer on them. Even you would have difficulty talking yourself out of it. :2thumbsup:

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#10 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 10:10:50 pm
Nibble - you didn't cause any offense at all, it's just trying to keep the training relevant to my goals. I'm not trying to be a stronger boulderer, just a fitter and less injured route climber.

Squatch - any reason for doing the compounds first?? Because I quite like them I tend to have them at the end as a "reward". Mixed circuits sound good BUT most of the gyms around here are pretty busy and mixing and matching different exercises might be awkward. Although I do like "less sitting around between sets", I tend to alternate leg and arm exercises at the gym so there's less sitting around between series, at least.

Webbo - I assume you're taking the piss, at any rate see points 1. - 3. 90mins on the stepper would be absolutely excellent.....to ensure I could never force myself to the gym again. 12 pull-ups is close to my current max (estimated at 14, down from 20 in 2007).

FWIW I think the recumbent cycling is - for all that it might seem laughable to other people - the most important thing I do down there. It's the only thing I've found where I can be doing a solid, leg-intensive CV exercise for 20 minutes, pouring sweat from 5 minutes in, and still complete it. It's also my most hated exercise out of the lot but I stick with it (partly because it's dull enough to focus on my MP3 player, today was a vintage gabber collection.)

On the subject of which:

Typical feelings after exercise:

3 x 12 pull-ups - tired (arms and heartbeat) after each set and need decent rest gaps.

3 x 10 medium weight deadlifts on machine - bit tired in legs and CV

10 mins arm cycling - gently pumped in all arms and good / less tweaky in wrist / shoulders.

Core workout of: -

EITHER: 15 inclined sit-ups, 20 alternating other knee sit-ups, 15 sit-ups - sore abs
OR: 1 minute plank with feet on squidgy ball, 2 x 1 minute plank with one foot on squidgy ball - shakey while doing the exercise
OR: 10-15 crunch leg raises, 10-15 straight leg raises, 10-12 straight leg raises to 45' each side. - sore abs

20 mins recumbent cycling - very tired and sometimes have to rest before I can stand up safely

Another core workout of whatever I didn't do previously - same as before

10 mins aem cycling - same as before

3 x 10 medium-heavy leg presses on machine - dizzy and fuzzy vision

3 x 10 pullups - generally exhausted and usually can't manage full series

3 x 10 compound exercise of one motion clean & jerk into overhead squat - like collapsing unconcious would be A. very likely and B. welcome

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#11 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 10:28:43 pm
Actually I wasn't taking the piss. If you are planning to walk up hill for x amount of minutes carrying a rucksack then going to climb hard. You need to be able to get there in reasonable shape or recover quickly. So you will have to TRAIN to do this, if this is so unpalatable stick to road side crags.
If you are wanting to do pull-ups and 14 is your max try doing as many sets of 5 you can do in 30 mins or 60 mins. I would be more inclined to try 3 sets with added weight a couple of pounds to start. Then do sets of 5 for 15 mins or something similar.
Aim to come out on your knees. :weakbench:

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#12 Re: Gym sessions.
August 29, 2014, 10:30:11 pm
Squatch - any reason for doing the compounds first?? Because I quite like them I tend to have them at the end as a "reward". Mixed circuits sound good BUT most of the gyms around here are pretty busy and mixing and matching different exercises might be awkward. Although I do like "less sitting around between sets", I tend to alternate leg and arm exercises at the gym so there's less sitting around between series, at least.
General theory is that compound exercises require more coordination and activation, as such doing them when tired tends to results in higher likelihood of injury as it's much more difficult to maintain proper form.

- What could I leave out if I need/want to have a shorter section??
his is why i tend to try and figure workable circuits.  It shortens the overall time considerably for me.  If you had to leave something out, in general given your goals, I'd say drop the pullups and one of the arm cycles.  You're climbing/training other days, so those are still getting a workout in. 

- What should I leave out or be wary of if I'm climbing the next day and don't want to be too tired??
Deadlifts and complex exercises.  They end up with a high level of CNS fatigue.  As long as you fuel yourself, the cardio stuff shouldn't kick your ass too bad for the next day. 

- What other simple stuff could I add or replace, given the reasons stated initially??
Add box jumps and/or lunges.  I find lunges to be much more related to approach type muscles recruitment than leg presses, unless you're simply going for a long slog up a steep but manicured trail.  Side lunges are also great for climbing training.  They do wonders for those high balancy rockover moves. 

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#13 Re: Gym sessions.
August 30, 2014, 12:15:59 pm
Thanks Squatch that's all nice and sensible. About the compounds, I do them with fairly light weights so they are reasonably controlled but still tiring, however I do notice sometimes I get sloppy due to general tiredness so that makes sense.

Actually I screwed up my initial post a bit and forgot to mention a few important aspects of why I go to the gym:

> Burn off some calories and hopefully some fat.

> Keep all of my body moving (keep my arms generally active for climbing training, and keep my legs active cos they get stiff / tired otherwise).

Ayck there was a third thing I remembered and forgot. The point is I'm trying to mix general fitness with a bit of stuff tailored for / complimenting climbing.

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#14 Re: Gym sessions.
August 30, 2014, 02:18:09 pm
It sounds like points 1-3 are the crux so to speak and you need to find a way where you can perform the more beneficial exercises identified by Nibbs and Webbo which will see faster all round fitness and climbing improvements but also don't put you off your pleasant trip to the gym staring at girls on the running machines.

Can I suggest a slow and steady transition to slightly harder training? Just enough effort to see improvement not enough to put you off.

1) 5 minutes on the stepper with a light backpack
2) 10 minutes staring at girls doing yoga on the mats
3)1 X 10 pull ups 1 x 5 pull ups with 10kg 1 x 5 pull ups with 5kg
4) Use the pull up assistance machine to train muscle ups
5) deadlift, bench press
6) front lever progression
7) 10 minutes on the stepper no backpack
8) Perve at girl at water fountain (superset: make eye contact get a smile / restraining order.)
9)Hit the showers champ.  :boxing:

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#15 Re: Gym sessions.
September 02, 2014, 04:07:59 am
Couple of minor things you could try for a change that I've been doing recently:

- plank-tuck on Swiss ball (start in pressup position w toes on Swiss ball, tuck knees to chest)

- pistol (single leg squats; easier to start off standing on a step/ bench w free leg dropping down to floor; harder if you extend free leg to front and you're standing on floor)

- single leg bridge (to strengthen hamstrings and prevent a common imbalance where hams are weaker than quads): lie flat on back on floor, bring one foot to butt, push that heel into the floor to raise hips and the straight leg, keeping whole body in the plane. Tough on core too, and I thought my hamstring was gonna explode the first time :-)



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#16 Re: Gym sessions.
September 03, 2014, 10:31:31 am
Those sound good. Which one is the Swiss Ball?

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#17 Re: Gym sessions.
September 03, 2014, 11:47:17 am

Those sound good. Which one is the Swiss Ball?

The one that costs a lot and does nothing.

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#18 Re: Gym sessions.
September 03, 2014, 12:10:04 pm
Buy the Steve House book and see what he'd have you doing?

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#19 Re: Gym sessions.
September 03, 2014, 09:07:36 pm
Those sound good. Which one is the Swiss Ball?
I guess looking for something round and ball shaped might be a start.

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#20 Re: Gym sessions.
September 03, 2014, 09:44:47 pm
Without knowing what your strength and fitness is like and what you're capable of it's really hard to give any meaningful advice at all.  However, variation is good, so do something different each and every time you go to the gym.

For a warm up.
Rowing is better than cycling (2k on the C2 around 8:30 is a good warm up)
Some squats (just normal squats) to get the legs warm.

Compound lifts:
5 sets of 5 Clean & Jerk OR Snatch - (you'll figure out what weight as the first set should feel relatively easy and the third one tough, don't worry about taking weight off to complete the 5x5 as the important thing is the cumulative weight you pick off the floor and pit over your head with good form twenty five times)

OR

Easy dead brain stuff if you're too tired/not stable enough for compounds.
5x5 Deadlifts OR
Kettlebell swing ladder 1 swing (5 seconds rest) 2 swings (5 seconds rest).. Up to 20 swings and then back down again.rest

OR

You can't go wrong with keeping it dead simple e.g.

10k row for time (under 20 mins is good) (endurance)
Aiming for a sub 7 minute 2k row over a couple of months is a great power endurance goal and will do your fitness wonders.
200 kettlebell swings
100 TGUs
Prison Burpees (1 burpee (rest), 2 burpees (rest), 3 burpees (rest).. Up to 20 burpees (rest) then back down again from 19 to 1

Sometimes it's nice to just stick a 100 kgs (or whatever's a comfortable deadlift) on the bar and do ten sets of ten deadlifts for time.  You know when you've moved ten tonnes off the floor in under twenty minutes.

You will not put on weight doing any of this shit.  Don't fuck about stretching, just do whatever you plan to do gently and warm up into it.

Crunches, bench presses or any "isolating" exercises are useless.

Don't lie on the floor panting (just attention seeking) or sit down on a machine after doing anything, stand up and recover properly. 

Read Dan John's "Lifting and Learning" (it's not just about weightlifting, far from it, but simplicity and variation).

Have fun.


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#21 Re: Gym sessions.
September 03, 2014, 09:52:38 pm
The general athletic benchmarks that will prepare you for nearly everything are:

Sub 7min 2k row
Sub 20min 10k row
2.0x bodyweight deadlift
1.25 – 1.5x bodyweight front squat
1x bodyweight standing overhead press and power clean
.75x bodyweight snatch
12-15x bodyweight pull-ups (chin over bar, no kipping)
20x bodyweight strict dips

Working toward all of these, whether you get them or not will do harm at all.


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#22 Re: Gym sessions.
September 03, 2014, 09:59:06 pm
I know you've got dodgy legs Fiend hence qualifying everything I've said above.  But there's nothing "beastly" about any of it and I'm pretty sure you could do all of it..

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#23 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 02:54:57 am
I've started adding in some gym stuff to my training at the moment - finding it quite helpful.

Dips feel like they've been quite helpful for my shoulders. First started doing sets with bodyweight, now adding some weight.

Have been doing some squats too - don't think it really has any benefit for climbing, but I do think it's useful for the bike (and will probably be appreciated whenever I'm next doing some longer walk-ins).

Also working on the front lever progression, roughly following the steps described in this article.

The general athletic benchmarks that will prepare you for nearly everything are:
1.25 – 1.5x bodyweight front squat

Genuinely curious since I'm currently doing back squats - how come you suggest front squat instead?

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#24 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 04:22:40 am
I'm also curious about that - as I always do back squats myself. I recently noticed a few beasts at the gym doing front squats...


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#25 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 07:17:57 am
The general athletic benchmarks that will prepare you for nearly everything are:

Sub 7min 2k row
Sub 20min 10k row


That's a fair increase in speed going from the 2k to the 10k! I presume you mean sub 20min 5k...

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#26 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 08:25:28 am
 :slap: whoops! Yes of course...

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#27 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 09:07:56 am
Without knowing what your strength and fitness is like and what you're capable of it's really hard to give any meaningful advice at all.  However, variation is good, so do something different each and every time you go to the gym.

For a warm up.
Rowing is better than cycling (2k on the C2 around 8:30 is a good warm up)
Some squats (just normal squats) to get the legs warm.

Compound lifts:
5 sets of 5 Clean & Jerk OR Snatch - (you'll figure out what weight as the first set should feel relatively easy and the third one tough, don't worry about taking weight off to complete the 5x5 as the important thing is the cumulative weight you pick off the floor and pit over your head with good form twenty five times)

OR

Easy dead brain stuff if you're too tired/not stable enough for compounds.
5x5 Deadlifts OR
Kettlebell swing ladder 1 swing (5 seconds rest) 2 swings (5 seconds rest).. Up to 20 swings and then back down again.rest

OR

You can't go wrong with keeping it dead simple e.g.

10k row for time (under 20 mins is good) (endurance)
Aiming for a sub 7 minute 2k row over a couple of months is a great power endurance goal and will do your fitness wonders.
200 kettlebell swings
100 TGUs
Prison Burpees (1 burpee (rest), 2 burpees (rest), 3 burpees (rest).. Up to 20 burpees (rest) then back down again from 19 to 1


Hi Ben, all this is really useful - I'm currently working in South Sudan and don't have access to a climbing wall, so I'm in the gym to train a bit. I've never learnt how to do deadlifts, clean and jerk, etc, and figure this isn't the time to learn. Any suggestions as for suitable replacement weight lifting exercises, other than than the rowing/burpees/TGUs?

Also, on TGU's I've read conflicting things. Some say you need perfect form and to do it one way only, others suggest you can get up pretty much as you like. Any thoughts?

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#28 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 10:14:40 am
I'm at work at the mo but will reply later.

Side runner I don't know the SCIENCE but the FS activates more muscle groups than the BS, demands better form and a deeper squat and is part of the C&J movement hence preferred over the BS..

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#29 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 10:35:37 am
it used to be the thought that 10 reps of stuff was in the range for increasing muscle size - won't this make Fiend heavier?

also - isn't the modern fashion to burn fat by low reps high weight (plus sensible diet which avoids popular fast food outlets)?

is there a facility for doing dips? they seem to be boredom-friendly and possibly useful for topping out strength

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#30 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 11:22:01 am
Side runner I don't know the SCIENCE but the FS activates more muscle groups than the BS, demands better form and a deeper squat and is part of the C&J movement hence preferred over the BS..

Hi,
To correct this slightly and expand further, the FS emphasises different areas to the BS (FS = more quads, and more mid/upper back, and less glutes and hamstrings). A FS also needs more flexibility in the wrists, arms and shoulders to hold the bar in a good rack position (with elbows high). If you don't maintain a tight upright position in a FS then you may buckle forwards on the way down, and drop the bar, with hilarious results.

As to why one would do FS instead of BS, it depends on what your goals and strengths are. If you're weak at FS or have never done them, then they may give good gains and a good contrast to BS. If you're fine at FS and your FS 1RM is already at around 80% of your BS 1RM, then it may be better to spend more time doing BS since BS lets you lift more weight and build more strength all over. Most olympic lifting programmes put more time into BS than FS, since it's your BS 1rm that ultimately determines your upper limit in the FS, C&J and Snatch (with the big proviso that all major flexibility and technique issues have been ironed out).

As a rule of thumb, an 'average' olympic lifter will maintain these (ball-park only) 1RM ratios:
FS = 80-85% of BS
Clean = 80-85% of FS
Snatch = 80-85% of Clean
though plenty of exceptions exist.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 11:30:10 am by SiWitcher »

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#31 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 11:55:40 am
FD - okay yes lots of radical changes there. Bear in mind that my gym stuff is strictly to supplement / complement actual climbing training and climbing days out, rather than to be a gym monster. Can you give me some general principles that you're basing that new workout on??


Webbo - you're a choad, there are lots of different ball-shaped things in a gym. Yes okay I LMGTFYed it and that's what I use for my one-legged planks. Not quite sure how that is going to work as a plank tuck unless sidewinder means carefully tip-toeing it towards my body.


2-Tru - don't be fooled there is very little pleasant about my going to the gym except for some of the lifting bits and the vague satisfaction that I've actually gone and done it.


Lagers - I too am wondering again about the low reps high weight thing vs the 10 reps for increasing muscle size. Having said that most of my 10 rep stuff is pull-ups or squat/deadlift/compound stuff which seems to be getting general approval?

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#32 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 12:10:19 pm
Some good advice and suggestions on here.

If it's a climbing related performance increase your after I'd definitely add in some climbing specific core stuff (front lever progressions, hanging leg raises, side leg raises/kicks and "windscreen wipers" or whatever they're called, 60-120 seconds of lying on your back with your legs straight and feet off the floor at various heights)

I know deadlifting is fun and rewarding as it's easy to feel good about moving shit loads of weight, but most climbers are pretty good at this anyway (if you're anywhere near 2X bodyweight you don't need any more for climbing and would be better spending the time on the above exercises) but not so good at proper climbing core exercises, ie. the "front" core muscles (abs, hip muscles etc)

The core exercises above are often good to add to the end of a climbing session, as they can work your upper body locking muscles quite hard too, so it means you can rest these n your non-climbing session.

I still think that bench pressing and shoulder has a place too, for working climbing antagonistic muscles. If you're that down on them then do your bench presses with dumbbells instead of a bar and see what you think.

Get psyched and get some techno on!!!
Gus


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#33 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 12:27:16 pm
seems to be getting general approval

kiss of death

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#34 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 01:20:58 pm
Sorry Gus I have a 170+ bpm minimum limit whilst at the gym. Driving to it is a different matter tho  :yes:

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#35 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 01:43:47 pm
Not quite sure how that is going to work as a plank tuck unless sidewinder means carefully tip-toeing it towards my body.

I found this helpful

http://bit.ly/1tvRpps

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#36 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 01:51:01 pm
I'm really busy at work at the moment and completely swamped so it'll take some time to reply.  Fiend, it's not a workout, just some examples of different exercises to do at the gym...

Also, none of this stuff will make you a better climber but it might make you a bit stronger, allow more climbing time and prevent injury.

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#37 Re: Gym sessions.
September 04, 2014, 02:01:23 pm
Thank you stubbsline, well done. Arsenugget!

No worries FD, any info at any time can be helpful.

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#38 Re: Gym sessions.
September 10, 2014, 09:24:40 pm
Sean - A good way to learn decent form for a TGU is to load the weight up.  Once it gets heavy the form finds itself and you can then drop it down once you've got the moves.  There are some decent vids online too.  How long are you out for?  When you come back pop over as I've started training again and have KBs and an Olympic barbell set in the yard so can show the limited amount I know (I did get some Oly lift training from a coach a few years back so know the basics).  As for weights in the gym I reckon the overhead squat is a great exercise that works the whole body and is great for climbers as it stretches the upper back and shoulders where we get tight.  . The gym will probably have a rack thing where you can do it safely.  Doing squats really helped my hip flexibility after years of failing to get bendier doing the normal stretches.

Fiend:  For me it's all about developing a good foundation of strength, power endurance and fitness to apply to anything whether it's climbing, surfing and occaisionly cycling.  The last two years have been pretty much a write off but I've got back into the work in the last couple of weeks and whilst it's hard and I'm a long way off where I was, the results are encouraging and the weight I've put on will come off pretty quick.  There's a great book by Dan John called Never Let Go that sort of spells it all out.  I'll take back what I said about bench pressing as it's good as Gus says, especially with heavy dumbbells.

Have fun

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#39 Re: Gym sessions.
September 11, 2014, 09:32:32 am
Sean - A good way to learn decent form for a TGU is to load the weight up.  Once it gets heavy the form finds itself and you can then drop it down once you've got the moves.  There are some decent vids online too.  How long are you out for?  When you come back pop over as I've started training again and have KBs and an Olympic barbell set in the yard so can show the limited amount I know (I did get some Oly lift training from a coach a few years back so know the basics).  As for weights in the gym I reckon the overhead squat is a great exercise that works the whole body and is great for climbers as it stretches the upper back and shoulders where we get tight.  . The gym will probably have a rack thing where you can do it safely.  Doing squats really helped my hip flexibility after years of failing to get bendier doing the normal stretches.


Ben, thanks very much for the info and your kind offer. I'm back in a week so when I've recovered I'll get in touch and come over, that would be great :)

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#40 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 01:19:23 pm
I go to the gym once a week or so, mostly for obvious general fitness training as well as training in-between wall sessions <snip>
- What could I leave out if I need/want to have a shorter section??
- What should I leave out or be wary of if I'm climbing the next day and don't want to be too tired??
- What other simple stuff could I add or replace, given the reasons stated initially??

What no powerballs?

I read this thread with interest as my workouts have got a bit stale, and it's all about vaguely holding it together for me these days. But I know a bit a about saving time in the gym as I don't like to spend longer there than I have to. That reads like a long moderate workout. If you're doing it for results you could shorten it a lot.

Start with core, which provides a good allover warm-up, then slam into strength thinking fewer better/less is more, and if you're on 170 bpm do circuits with no rests. this will make you breathe a bit whilst viewing the world through a pleasant red mist. After that a bit of lying down cardio's fine. Or just lying down. Anyway: core, quality strength and cardio in that order. Leave out the second strength session, as this won't achieve much beyond burning a few (and only a few) cals.

(In terms of exercises, pullups, dips, squats or deadlifts is a workout. I'd be wary of teaching myself olympic lifts, but then I've zero coordination.) 

And oh yeah never ever ever sit down and rest on a bench/machine.




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#41 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 02:22:33 pm
Start with core, which provides a good allover warm-up, then slam into strength

Really? So doing heavy squats etc. with all your trunk stabilisers nicely pre-fatigued is a good/safe idea? Not sure I find this entirely convincing.

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#42 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 03:30:11 pm
Fiend would find it hard to squat with the bar so I don't think tiring his core a little would make that much difference. That said I always do core at the end

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#43 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 04:13:05 pm
My entire body is pre-fatigued at the best of times...

I'm too knackered to do core at the end. I think of abs etc (what I mean by core, not fiddly balance stuff) as the most important bit of my workout, get it done and then get on to more motivating exercises.  But I'm no advert for staying injury free so what do I know? .

But anyway, even if situps etc takes a bit off what you can do in heavy power exercises, given the aim of Fiend's workout is all over multipurpose fitness, I don't think that reaching potential in at-the-limit squats is really the issue. You do lower weights when you do circuits, what with all the breathing and thinking you're going to die and all. There can't be many whose form doesn't suffer a bit, but if you want a quick allover workout that gets you in and out of the gym (difficult at busy times for sure) and is good for aerobic fitness and maintaining muscle, you can't beat it. But it won't make you a power-lifter.

I used to wear a belt for 'heavy' squats when I did them to save abs (heavy = getting to 2x bw tho bw was a bit less then and, as an indicator of lack of coordination or at least lack of fast twitch, my clean and jerk was half that...)

But there's a grand tradition of on the internet of lying about implausible gym exploits, so  when can we get to the topless shots? 



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#44 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 04:24:33 pm
I find things like front squats and weighted pull-ups (dumbbell between ankles) actually work the abs pretty hard, so I figure out I'm getting a fair amount of "core training" from them, and doing a few sets of dedicated core stuff afterwards is more of a finisher-offer.

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#45 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 05:14:42 pm
Dumbbells between ankles! I'm such an idiot and you're a genius meunchener!

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#46 Re: Gym sessions.
September 12, 2014, 05:31:39 pm
Well if you're in a gym not at the wall, and you don't have a weight vest, and you can't be arsed to bring a harness ... then you can get to about bw + 25kg before your ankles give out :)

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#47 Re: Gym sessions.
September 15, 2014, 12:59:15 pm
Fiend not sure these are OK for you if you have iffy legs but I found doing sets of calf raises on a 2in high edge with a couple of heavyish dumbbells useful (aim for the same total weight as winter sack plus bug boots, I use 20-40kg) as part of the prep for my Scottish winter climbing. Just aim to increase the maximum number of reps but keep the weight the same, good replicator of the approach walk-in/of front pointing calf burn. good form essential to get the burn.

+1 for max number of pull ups in a given time frame e.g. 10 mins, and compound sets of exercises. Anyone mention press ups??

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#48 Re: Gym sessions.
September 15, 2014, 01:44:37 pm
My current routine as I only have 1-2 times/week access to a climbing gym but everyday access to a fitness gym:

4 times/week:
- Flexibility(Stretching): ca. 9min
- Strength(bodyqweight): plank(1min)/pullups(5)/pushups(10)/dips(5) X 6/8 ca. 20min
- Strength(dumbbell): bicepsCurl(12kgx5)/tricepsCurl(10kgx5)/wristRoll(12kgx5)/shoulderPull(10kgx5)/chestButterfly(12kgx5)/squats(50kgx5) X 6/8 ca. 20min

Several/week:
- Flexibility/Balance(Tai Chi): Variations on simplified 24-form
- Endurance/Health(Running): Slow distance run (currently 6km./advance to 10miles)

Does it help my climbing? I'm sure the stretching and Tai Chi do. The rest just let's me feel more healthy and leaves me less complexes about my chicken chest  8).

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#49 Re: Gym sessions.
September 15, 2014, 02:11:42 pm
I find things like front squats and weighted pull-ups (dumbbell between ankles) actually work the abs pretty hard, so I figure out I'm getting a fair amount of "core training" from them,

I think this is the mistake a lot of climbers make. These aren't really working your climbing specific core at all. Do some front levers, half levers, straight leg raises, windscreen wipers or hanging side leg swings and you'll see the difference.

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#50 Re: Gym sessions.
September 15, 2014, 02:42:42 pm
May be true but has nothing to do with the point I was making, which was about the unwisdom from a safety point of view of pre-fatiguing the core before hitting the weights hard

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#51 Re: Gym sessions.
September 15, 2014, 04:19:57 pm
did some googling and it turns out I'm a rare example of someone being wrong on the internet...

http://www.criticalbench.com/training-abs.htm

The quoted bits that follow come from a guy who's neck's wider than his head, so I'm not inclined to argue. He debates:

> 4 - Depending on your goals, you can work them first or last. If your focus is abs then train them first. Weaknesses should be trained early on in the session when you are fresh

vs...

> 6- Do them last after your larger muscle groups as sacrificing core strength at the beginning of the workout can compromise safety and strength.

and concludes:

> Why would you fatigue your abs before doing any muscles that require your core as a primary stabilize?
> obvious that if you train your abs first, you won't have the core strength necessary to do certain leg exercises that require a fair amount of core strength. If your abs and core are fatigued from previous exercises, it can cause weakness on subsequent exercises and increase the risk of lower back injury...never sacrifice core strength and safety simply to get your ab training out of the way early even if it's your weakest body part.


(So I'm wrong, at least from a body building perspective but I'm not sure I want to change this aspect of my workout. I don't want to abandon a set of 90 jackkinfe situps, which I'd not be able to do, and woruld do with even shitter form at the end of my workout, perhaps injuring something, and I don't do heavy leg stuff any more. Anyway that's enough bodybuilding sites to keep me going for a while  :jaw:)



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#52 Re: Gym sessions.
September 15, 2014, 05:31:43 pm
IMHO I would steer clear of anything to do with "bodybuilding".  The objectives and the exercises are anything but athletic.

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#53 Re: Gym sessions.
September 16, 2014, 06:48:56 am
I do take a bit of umbridge with statements like this FD, well not really but it's often confusing. Bodybuilding is a very hard sport which takes as much if not more dedication than climbing. If we were to replace the word bodybuilding with lifting weights between 3 and 10 times per set, that would be better ;)

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#54 Re: Gym sessions.
September 16, 2014, 10:26:08 am
 :strongbench: point taken  :)

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#55 Re: Gym sessions.
September 18, 2014, 11:11:16 pm
May be true but has nothing to do with the point I was making, which was about the unwisdom from a safety point of view of pre-fatiguing the core before hitting the weights hard

You probably should have said that then rather than saying that you're working your abs by doing squats!!

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#56 Re: Gym sessions.
September 19, 2014, 06:02:42 am
I've never seriously trained back squats - don't want chunky thighs - but have done front squats/goblet squats sometimes. They require a more upright posture - generally good for climbers suffering from upper back hunch - and I also find they work the abs very hard to stabilise the position as extensively discussed higher up in this thread, both of which are good.

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#57 Re: Gym sessions.
September 19, 2014, 06:50:18 am
 I would have thought whether you train core first or do your weights first depends on your priority. If you are doing weights to look buff on the beach, then you would want to do weights first so you could go heavier.
However if climbing is the priority then weights are just an add on so you would want to give your best to your core as this is more likely to get you up your project, rather than an extra front squat.

 

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