[Fiend]

I go to the gym once a week or so, mostly for obvious general fitness training as well as training in-between wall sessions while I'm resting my skin/fingers.

The reasons I go, and do particular exercises, are:

1. Do exercises that are vaguely palatable so I will ACTUALLY GO AND DO THEM.
2. See 1.
3. See 1.
4. Perve at jiggly girls on the running machine.
5. Listen to really ruff drum and bass and industrial techno for a couple of hours with few distractions.
6. Do C.V. exercises I can manage to compensate for lack of running / hill-walking options
7. Do some leg exercises to compensate for lack of aerobic leg fitness.
8. Do some arm exercises that compliment climbing training (e.g. antagonistics or light arm exercises)
9. Do some relevant training (e.g. core, pull-ups)
10. Have varied exercises so I can keep going through a session.

Typical session:

3 x 12 pull-ups - to train my pure pulling ability as I've noticed my finger strength feels okay but my power-to-weight on bigger holds and lock-offs needs work.

3 x 10 medium weight deadlifts on machine - to prime my legs for rec. cycling (as recommended on here - some weights first to make CV more effective).

10 mins arm cycling - for general arm conditioning, a bit of CV, and feels good for shoulders.

Core workout of: - to train my core (and give me a break in between CV stuff), I've noticed the benefits of this already.

EITHER: 15 inclined sit-ups, 20 alternating other knee sit-ups, 15 sit-ups
OR: 1 minute plank with feet on squidgy ball, 2 x 1 minute plank with one foot on squidgy ball
OR: 10-15 crunch leg raises, 10-15 straight leg raises, 10-12 straight leg raises to 45' each side.

20 mins recumbent cycling - pure CV training and leg training.

Another core workout of whatever I didn't do previously - as before

10 mins recumbent cycling - as before

3 x 10 medium-heavy leg presses on machine - to strengthen my legs, make steep walking / scrambling sections easier, compensate for lack of leg fitness, and
a bit for rockovers too (Easy Trad...)

3 x 10 pullups - as before, usually exhausting at this point.

3 x 10 compound exercise of one motion clean & jerk into overhead squat - partly to work arms and shoulder presses, but mostly because it feels a very good general exercise, lots of muscles used and quickly exhausting even with low weights.

Occasionally I will throw in some weights instead of the other post-CV stuff.

...

Now then. Bearing in mind points 1. - 3. in why I do gym stuff, any sensible comments on this?? Please don't suggest stuff like "half your exercises are a waste of time, you should just go on the rowing machine and nothing else" because all that will do is ensure I'm bored out of my fucking mind and don't actually go to the gym. Ideas I'm actually interested in are:

- What could I leave out if I need/want to have a shorter section??
- What should I leave out or be wary of if I'm climbing the next day and don't want to be too tired??
- What other simple stuff could I add or replace, given the reasons stated initially??

[Stubbs]

Moar core. If I read it right you're only doing 2 sets of core stuff for the whole sesh? If you're on the pull up par already you could do some knee to chest or L hangs on there.

[Muenchener]

Fewer, heavier pull-ups?

[Fiend]

Moar core. If I read it right you're only doing 2 sets of core stuff for the whole sesh? If you're on the pull up par already you could do some knee to chest or L hangs on there.

Can do - although I also tend to do core (2 x 1 min plans, 2 x 1 min superman planks) as part of my warm-up during bouldering sessions. When I'm on the bar I'm pretty fucked from my pull-ups but I could fit some more in somewhere.

Fewer, heavier pull-ups?

Possibly - although as a trad punter I tend to get some benefit of doing multiple reps, given half the time I need to crank it out it's after pulling up and down several times finding holds and gear . I'll see what the options are, but the main gym I go to has a horrible arc bar lat pull down machine, and I don't think there's options for weight belts.

[Nibile]

Fiend,
I'd leave anything climbing related for wall sessions (forearms training, etc), and I'd just go to the gym to get fucking strong.
Drop those rep/sets schemes that are good for nothing except putting up weight, and do few, big, heavy and possibly compound movements.
Train pulling power by doing front lever pulls (knees tucked in), I can assure you that when you'll be able to do one front lever pull up (straight arms, legs straight) you'll have no lock-off or pulling problems on rock.
Train SPEED. Speed is a fundamental part of power. Do explosive moves. Contrast training.
Don't cycle, don't leg press.
With a few heavy snatches, your legs will be done.
Work you CV capacity with weights. Farmer's Walks; partial rest sets with little weight and high reps, etc.
Basically, don't go to the gym to be weak. Go there to fucking crush the weights.
You want to be a machine.

[Fiend]

Nibs, sorry, I should have mentioned that my primary overall goal with physical training is for 1. Trad climbing and 2. General fitness to keep me healthy (absolutely essential given my leg situation) and enable me to get to crags easier.

I get the points you're making but I'm not sure that's optimised for, say, walking into Stac Pollaidh without dying and then feeling perky enough to do Expecting To Fly once I'm there. I did do heavy weight stuff a couple of years ago but didn't feel the fitness benefits.


I'm not a total pussy though, I do keep training bouldering indoors and mix it up with some max hangs / slot 10 pull-ups on the beastmaker

[Nibile]

Uh, oh. 
I never meant to say that you are soft.
Sorry for the misunderstanding anyway.

[tomtom]

Can I go to the gym and just drink coffee and talk to pretty women interesting people?

Or is that defeating the object?

[Sasquatch]

Thinking along the lines of smaller tweaks to the program:

Move the compound exercise at the end much earlier.  Generally speaking you prioritize lifts by complexity, with the more complex lift going first, followed by less complex. 

For overall fitness, I like to do mixed circuits so you keep yourself working a bit more consistently with less sitting around between sets. For example, do:

3 x
12 pull-ups
10 medium weight deadlifts on machine
3 mins arm cycling
15 inclined sit-ups, 20 alternating other knee sit-ups, 15 sit-ups

Rest a couple of minutes, then:
3 x
10 compound exercise of one motion clean & jerk into overhead squat
1min Stretching

Rest a couple of minutes, then:
3x
10 medium-heavy leg presses on machine
10 mins recumbent cycling
10 pullups
1 min Plank

[webbo]

Matt
This all seems a bit lightweight. You are laying on your back pedalling for 20 mins to get you fit enough to hit some highland crag in reasonable shape to climb at your best. It's 20 mins to High Neb you need to do a fair bit more, also you will be carrying a sack full of gear.
A realistic training session would be 90 mins on the stepper with a rucksack then a session down the wall.
As for pull-ups 3x12 are you taking the piss. If these are on one arm maybe, do you actually get sweat on with this training.
You need to do what Nibs suggest plus the aerobic stuff as the that's what seems to be what causes you the most angst.
Imagine you are on a good shake out and you check the holds out on the crux and you realise you could do a one armer on them. Even you would have difficulty talking yourself out of it.

[Fiend]

Nibble - you didn't cause any offense at all, it's just trying to keep the training relevant to my goals. I'm not trying to be a stronger boulderer, just a fitter and less injured route climber.

Squatch - any reason for doing the compounds first?? Because I quite like them I tend to have them at the end as a "reward". Mixed circuits sound good BUT most of the gyms around here are pretty busy and mixing and matching different exercises might be awkward. Although I do like "less sitting around between sets", I tend to alternate leg and arm exercises at the gym so there's less sitting around between series, at least.

Webbo - I assume you're taking the piss, at any rate see points 1. - 3. 90mins on the stepper would be absolutely excellent.....to ensure I could never force myself to the gym again. 12 pull-ups is close to my current max (estimated at 14, down from 20 in 2007).

FWIW I think the recumbent cycling is - for all that it might seem laughable to other people - the most important thing I do down there. It's the only thing I've found where I can be doing a solid, leg-intensive CV exercise for 20 minutes, pouring sweat from 5 minutes in, and still complete it. It's also my most hated exercise out of the lot but I stick with it (partly because it's dull enough to focus on my MP3 player, today was a vintage gabber collection.)

On the subject of which:

Typical feelings after exercise:

3 x 12 pull-ups - tired (arms and heartbeat) after each set and need decent rest gaps.

3 x 10 medium weight deadlifts on machine - bit tired in legs and CV

10 mins arm cycling - gently pumped in all arms and good / less tweaky in wrist / shoulders.

Core workout of: -

EITHER: 15 inclined sit-ups, 20 alternating other knee sit-ups, 15 sit-ups - sore abs
OR: 1 minute plank with feet on squidgy ball, 2 x 1 minute plank with one foot on squidgy ball - shakey while doing the exercise
OR: 10-15 crunch leg raises, 10-15 straight leg raises, 10-12 straight leg raises to 45' each side. - sore abs

20 mins recumbent cycling - very tired and sometimes have to rest before I can stand up safely

Another core workout of whatever I didn't do previously - same as before

10 mins aem cycling - same as before

3 x 10 medium-heavy leg presses on machine - dizzy and fuzzy vision

3 x 10 pullups - generally exhausted and usually can't manage full series

3 x 10 compound exercise of one motion clean & jerk into overhead squat - like collapsing unconcious would be A. very likely and B. welcome

[webbo]

Actually I wasn't taking the piss. If you are planning to walk up hill for x amount of minutes carrying a rucksack then going to climb hard. You need to be able to get there in reasonable shape or recover quickly. So you will have to TRAIN to do this, if this is so unpalatable stick to road side crags.
If you are wanting to do pull-ups and 14 is your max try doing as many sets of 5 you can do in 30 mins or 60 mins. I would be more inclined to try 3 sets with added weight a couple of pounds to start. Then do sets of 5 for 15 mins or something similar.
Aim to come out on your knees.

[Sasquatch]

Squatch - any reason for doing the compounds first?? Because I quite like them I tend to have them at the end as a "reward". Mixed circuits sound good BUT most of the gyms around here are pretty busy and mixing and matching different exercises might be awkward. Although I do like "less sitting around between sets", I tend to alternate leg and arm exercises at the gym so there's less sitting around between series, at least.

General theory is that compound exercises require more coordination and activation, as such doing them when tired tends to results in higher likelihood of injury as it's much more difficult to maintain proper form.

- What could I leave out if I need/want to have a shorter section??

his is why i tend to try and figure workable circuits.  It shortens the overall time considerably for me.  If you had to leave something out, in general given your goals, I'd say drop the pullups and one of the arm cycles.  You're climbing/training other days, so those are still getting a workout in. 

- What should I leave out or be wary of if I'm climbing the next day and don't want to be too tired??

Deadlifts and complex exercises.  They end up with a high level of CNS fatigue.  As long as you fuel yourself, the cardio stuff shouldn't kick your ass too bad for the next day. 

- What other simple stuff could I add or replace, given the reasons stated initially??

Add box jumps and/or lunges.  I find lunges to be much more related to approach type muscles recruitment than leg presses, unless you're simply going for a long slog up a steep but manicured trail.  Side lunges are also great for climbing training.  They do wonders for those high balancy rockover moves. 

[Fiend]

Thanks Squatch that's all nice and sensible. About the compounds, I do them with fairly light weights so they are reasonably controlled but still tiring, however I do notice sometimes I get sloppy due to general tiredness so that makes sense.

Actually I screwed up my initial post a bit and forgot to mention a few important aspects of why I go to the gym:

> Burn off some calories and hopefully some fat.

> Keep all of my body moving (keep my arms generally active for climbing training, and keep my legs active cos they get stiff / tired otherwise).

Ayck there was a third thing I remembered and forgot. The point is I'm trying to mix general fitness with a bit of stuff tailored for / complimenting climbing.

[2 Tru]

It sounds like points 1-3 are the crux so to speak and you need to find a way where you can perform the more beneficial exercises identified by Nibbs and Webbo which will see faster all round fitness and climbing improvements but also don't put you off your pleasant trip to the gym staring at girls on the running machines.

Can I suggest a slow and steady transition to slightly harder training? Just enough effort to see improvement not enough to put you off.

1) 5 minutes on the stepper with a light backpack
2) 10 minutes staring at girls doing yoga on the mats
3)1 X 10 pull ups 1 x 5 pull ups with 10kg 1 x 5 pull ups with 5kg
4) Use the pull up assistance machine to train muscle ups
5) deadlift, bench press
6) front lever progression
7) 10 minutes on the stepper no backpack
Perve at girl at water fountain (superset: make eye contact get a smile / restraining order.)
9)Hit the showers champ. 

[siderunner]

Couple of minor things you could try for a change that I've been doing recently:

- plank-tuck on Swiss ball (start in pressup position w toes on Swiss ball, tuck knees to chest)

- pistol (single leg squats; easier to start off standing on a step/ bench w free leg dropping down to floor; harder if you extend free leg to front and you're standing on floor)

- single leg bridge (to strengthen hamstrings and prevent a common imbalance where hams are weaker than quads): lie flat on back on floor, bring one foot to butt, push that heel into the floor to raise hips and the straight leg, keeping whole body in the plane. Tough on core too, and I thought my hamstring was gonna explode the first time :-)



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[Fiend]

Those sound good. Which one is the Swiss Ball?

[tomtom]

Those sound good. Which one is the Swiss Ball?

The one that costs a lot and does nothing.

[Paul B]

Buy the Steve House book and see what he'd have you doing?

[webbo]

Those sound good. Which one is the Swiss Ball?

I guess looking for something round and ball shaped might be a start.

[Falling Down]

Without knowing what your strength and fitness is like and what you're capable of it's really hard to give any meaningful advice at all.  However, variation is good, so do something different each and every time you go to the gym.

For a warm up.
Rowing is better than cycling (2k on the C2 around 8:30 is a good warm up)
Some squats (just normal squats) to get the legs warm.

Compound lifts:
5 sets of 5 Clean & Jerk OR Snatch - (you'll figure out what weight as the first set should feel relatively easy and the third one tough, don't worry about taking weight off to complete the 5x5 as the important thing is the cumulative weight you pick off the floor and pit over your head with good form twenty five times)

OR

Easy dead brain stuff if you're too tired/not stable enough for compounds.
5x5 Deadlifts OR
Kettlebell swing ladder 1 swing (5 seconds rest) 2 swings (5 seconds rest).. Up to 20 swings and then back down again.rest

OR

You can't go wrong with keeping it dead simple e.g.

10k row for time (under 20 mins is good) (endurance)
Aiming for a sub 7 minute 2k row over a couple of months is a great power endurance goal and will do your fitness wonders.
200 kettlebell swings
100 TGUs
Prison Burpees (1 burpee (rest), 2 burpees (rest), 3 burpees (rest).. Up to 20 burpees (rest) then back down again from 19 to 1

Sometimes it's nice to just stick a 100 kgs (or whatever's a comfortable deadlift) on the bar and do ten sets of ten deadlifts for time.  You know when you've moved ten tonnes off the floor in under twenty minutes.

You will not put on weight doing any of this shit.  Don't fuck about stretching, just do whatever you plan to do gently and warm up into it.

Crunches, bench presses or any "isolating" exercises are useless.

Don't lie on the floor panting (just attention seeking) or sit down on a machine after doing anything, stand up and recover properly. 

Read Dan John's "Lifting and Learning" (it's not just about weightlifting, far from it, but simplicity and variation).

Have fun.

[Falling Down]

The general athletic benchmarks that will prepare you for nearly everything are:

Sub 7min 2k row
Sub 20min 10k row
2.0x bodyweight deadlift
1.25 – 1.5x bodyweight front squat
1x bodyweight standing overhead press and power clean
.75x bodyweight snatch
12-15x bodyweight pull-ups (chin over bar, no kipping)
20x bodyweight strict dips

Working toward all of these, whether you get them or not will do harm at all.

[Falling Down]

I know you've got dodgy legs Fiend hence qualifying everything I've said above.  But there's nothing "beastly" about any of it and I'm pretty sure you could do all of it..

[joel182]

I've started adding in some gym stuff to my training at the moment - finding it quite helpful.

Dips feel like they've been quite helpful for my shoulders. First started doing sets with bodyweight, now adding some weight.

Have been doing some squats too - don't think it really has any benefit for climbing, but I do think it's useful for the bike (and will probably be appreciated whenever I'm next doing some longer walk-ins).

Also working on the front lever progression, roughly following the steps described in this article.

The general athletic benchmarks that will prepare you for nearly everything are:
1.25 – 1.5x bodyweight front squat

Genuinely curious since I'm currently doing back squats - how come you suggest front squat instead?

[siderunner]

I'm also curious about that - as I always do back squats myself. I recently noticed a few beasts at the gym doing front squats...


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