[DAVETHOMAS90]

I wasn't sure where to put this, but wanted to split something off from some of the other threads.

Thinking over the issues around establishing routes on the Painted Wall, there are really common themes that seem to be about the question of what it is we're trying to establish - in our monuments in stone.

This is my last post in the Gogarth stealth bolts thread, followed by a fantastic short video from the Veritasium YouTube channel.

Bonjoy, what happened to the gear on Toploader at Millstone?
Weren't some of those pegs drilled?

Separately, I'm not comfortable with the overly simple argument of justifying everything on the basis of popularity etc. We'll be leaving Europe next. Imagine what a mess that'd leave us in.

How many routes are there that might be kind of fun as a clip up, but I'd probably be less likely to do without pre-drilled gear?

Are we trying to "produce" routes, or in some way record ascents?

Consumed or experienced? I appreciate that's a slightly contrived distinction, but I think it's one we're all familiar with.

Use the same set of holds 50+ times, and we're inclined to assume the former, but I think that's a mistake, with trad, anyway.

Loved the video. Good channel too.

[Fultonius]

Seeing as this is going to be a weird an philosophical delve into the human psyche through the lens of arbitrary endeavours

Let's go!

Routes don't exist. We don't "create" them (fully manufactured routes aside...). One of the amazing things about modern society is that it's all based on belief. We imagine things into being, and then, if enough other people believe the magic, then it becomes something solid, tangible.

Routes are a figment of collective imagination, and community belief.

So, ultimately, creating "monuments" is a fallacy. All we can do is imagine something beautiful, and hope the future generations continue to hold those images in their mind.

Who finds 10 drilled pegs and a chossy top-out inspring?   Hardened trad climbers? Nah, unsatisfying. Sport climbers - nah, they'll want well placed bolts, a lower off.

Has the protagonist had a failure of imagination?

[Fiend]

I'm personally not averse to the idea of a 20m pitch of varying choss and flddly gear, with a couple of pegbolts as a lower-off rather than topping out. More so if they've equalised with a load of old tat. HTH.

[Fultonius]

I'm personally not averse to the idea of a 20m pitch of varying choss and flddly gear, with a couple of pegbolts as a lower-off rather than topping out. More so if they've equalised with a load of old tat. HTH.

I did a couple of FA like that near kilt rock in Skye,no, sorry - 35m of good climbing (if a little in need of more cleaning of flakey bits) to a 5m mank slope of loose death choss. A nice wee drilled peg-bolt belay / lower off would make a very nice route. As it is it's a no star piece of shit left to go back into the wild.

[SA Chris]

Has the protagonist had a failure of imagination?

Maybe got too tied with seeing if they could, rather than asking if the should. The draw of a first ascent is a powerful one.

[Fultonius]

Not an FA though, Shirley? That was the original rusty hammered peg version?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Routes don't exist. We don't "create" them (fully manufactured routes aside...). One of the amazing things about modern society is that it's all based on belief. We imagine things into being, and then, if enough other people believe the magic, then it becomes something solid, tangible.

Routes are a figment of collective imagination, and community belief.

So, ultimately, creating "monuments" is a fallacy. All we can do is imagine something beautiful, and hope the future generations continue to hold those images in their mind.

Has the protagonist had a failure of imagination?

I agree with this 

- which was also the point of the video. The timing seemed ironic.

However, there is a question around the motivations toward the FA in this particular example.

If the FA was ground up, then I think it would be a different endeavour/statement.

I was bouldering with a friend earlier, and we were exploring the sense of being "in relation to" the rock/concrete.

Of course, it certainly isn't always this way, but I found my first trip to France a real disappointment. The fixed gear/bolts lead more to a feeling of alienation, that I don't typically get from trad. Other people prefer being able to get lost in the movement though.

Yes, we grow accustomed to seeing "routes" as fixed things - something to "get"/"have" - which means that the way to that goal receives far less scrutiny. 'avin it is what climbing it means.

However, we've all experienced something a great deal richer than that. For me, a great climb becomes something more like a fabulous book, a wonderful adventure.

Like a fabulous book, where you don't read the words; a great read isn't the collection of words.

Climbs are mythical.

[petejh]

Climbs can certainly be mythical. Both sport and trad - we were talking yesterday about the obvious one, Indian Face. It's mythical due to the characters and the stories they spun around it, as well as the more physical factors such as position, rock type, and lack of gear. Sport routes such as Liquid Ambar are mythical for people of a certain age, Action Direct and Hubble other obvious ones. The mythology is more to do with the people and the stories than anything particularly stand-outish about the physical features.

Some of the painted wall routes were as Fultonius says deeply flawed creations when they were originally done as FAs in 1996 with loads of hammered pegs.  I think this leads on to further deeply flawed creations when attempts are made to bring these sorts of route back to a 'climbable' state. Trying to glitter wrap a turd springs to mind. The glitter wrap being not being totally honest about how the routes are now bolted, and suggesting they've changed from 1-star to 3-star routes.

[Hoseyb]

Probably taking this from a different direction, but when I think about monuments in stone, I tend to be drawn to routes that reflect the first ascentionist.
As a fairly obsessional climber, I love to soak deeply in climbing culture and folklore.
People who seek out first ascents are particularly interesting, and their choices and journeys tell us a lot about them.
When I was climbing a fair bit in the southwest I used to seek out Keith Darbyshire routes. Practically this was in general they were easier than Littlejohn routes and less likely to kill me than Fowler ones.
Flip! they were full of character, rich with adventure, and often had a proper smirk on them too..
Mennachurch wall comes to mind, only vs, but went from finger crack to slabby laybacking as it got wider, to yarding on seabird burrows..

And when I see that old photograph of him in Southwest Climbs, it's routes like this that provide that connection, a familiarity and warmth towards someone who I'll never meet.

As a keen first ascentionist myself,  I'm acutely aware that my choices and journeys have resulted in climbs that may lay me bare a little bit. While I'm OK with that, I wonder if all first ascentionists are so comfortable with how the rest of the climbing world veiws us through our routes.

[Fultonius]

Probably taking this from a different direction, but when I think about monuments in stone, I tend to be drawn to routes that reflect the first ascentionist.
As a fairly obsessional climber, I love to soak deeply in climbing culture and folklore.
People who seek out first ascents are particularly interesting, and their choices and journeys tell us a lot about them.
When I was climbing a fair bit in the southwest I used to seek out Keith Darbyshire routes. Practically this was in general they were easier than Littlejohn routes and less likely to kill me than Fowler ones.
Flip! they were full of character, rich with adventure, and often had a proper smirk on them too..
Mennachurch wall comes to mind, only vs, but went from finger crack to slabby laybacking as it got wider, to yarding on seabird burrows..

And when I see that old photograph of him in Southwest Climbs, it's routes like this that provide that connection, a familiarity and warmth towards someone who I'll never meet.

As a keen first ascentionist myself,  I'm acutely aware that my choices and journeys have resulted in climbs that may lay me bare a little bit. While I'm OK with that, I wonder if all first ascentionists are so comfortable with how the rest of the climbing world veiws us through our routes.

I reckon folks probably mainly think my routes are overgraded and overstarred. I've got a bit better with age.... ;-)

Do you ever read a well written book from someone who has that amazing ability to describe the core of a person? Knausgaard etc. Thinking along your lines of what your first ascents say about you, do you ever wonder how you'd be described by some how knew you well and was articulate?

[Hoseyb]

Well my brother is a playwright, and was best man at my wedding...

Although I probably should quote some random beret wearing philosopher at this point, I would say that most people only observe a version of yourself. A mix of what you share, what they take, and the previous experiences that have shaped their viewpoint.

Someone's routes are just that, a snatched and often random viewpoint. A bit of a "through the keyhole".

[jwi]

Probably taking this from a different direction, but when I think about monuments in stone, I tend to be drawn to routes that reflect the first ascentionist.

Interesting. In Scandinavia I was often drawn to the the routes of HC Doseth, as they tend to follow the some of the proudest lines on the classic crags and often at a grade that I could onsight with some effort and usually without risking life and limb. In Catalonia, the routes of Kim Santacatalina are often worth seeking out.

I have the feeling that people usually try to avoid my routes though. Not sure why.

[duncan]

In Scandinavia I was often drawn to the the routes of HC Doseth, as they tend to follow the some of the proudest lines on the classic crags and often at a grade that I could onsight with some effort and usually without risking life and limb.

I remember Hans Christian Doseth and Dag Kolsrud raging through Yosemite in 1981 or 82. HCD sounds like a Norwegian Pat Littlejohn who, unoriginally, would be my suggestion of a climber whose routes have a consistent character: almost guaranteed quality, adventurous but not lethal, and rarely giving up without a fight (someone commented about one of his Pembroke routes "typical Littlejohn: start pumped, stay pumped"). One of the more tiresome aspects of growing older is the realisation I will probably now never manage a number of his classics I'd been saving for when I was just a wee bit fitter...

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Hey Duncan.

Get fit, and team up for some of those Littlejohn classics 

Some really fabulous replies, which are really enjoyable to read, and offer some great insight into how people view this important part of our endeavours.

There's some majesty about the myth.

I agree with Pete's view on the Painted Wall routes in many ways; hammered into existence, but established without the mystique necessary to keep them alive.

Hammered a bit more to keep them awake, instead of sliding off into a long sleep, with the rust bleeding from the steel.

In the right circumstances, there's something tantalisingly forlornne about old tat blowing in the wind from an old rusting peg - it's evocative of the battle.

I can't remember who said "Climbing is imagination". I don't find the pegging of routes necessarily problematic in and of itself. It depends on everything else that's written into the ascent at the time, and what we hope to emulate.

That's why the use of knee pads is such a contested area of debate.
Pilgrimage may evolve into a different myth - albeit with the loss of an old one - but I'm not sure Hubble survives in the same way.

Capturing a particular style of line in a first ascent, really can establish a unique signature of the pioneer.

Really fascinating article here about myth and symbol in architecture:

"For the ancients, the world was an object of religious fear and veneration – it was sacred. When they set out to build their temples they looked to the Cosmos, the original Temple, for guidance."

https://involvedmag.com/myth-and-symbol-in-architecture/

The crags are our temples, aren't they?

Love the title picture, which of course is evocative of Monument Valley.

Separately, on the subject of the solidity - or not - of rock, when I was growing up in Devon, reading about Fawcett and Moffatt, I remember reading what Jerry said about Verbal Abuse, declaring "no one else can hang on those holds".
I just thought it was really loose!