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Brilliant training for climbing podcast (Read 15404 times)

petejh

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Brilliant training for climbing podcast
July 30, 2014, 10:45:11 pm
Just listened to this and thought it was the best overall talk about training for climbing I've ever come across. Scientists will like it, flaky artists perhaps less so.
http://trainingbeta.com/media/mark-and-mike-anderson-interview/?portfolioID=3838

Anyone got their book?

andybfreeman

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I have bookmarked this as I only got chance to listen to the first 20 mins the other day. I have also bought the new book, based on positive reviews on the thread on here, but it's a weighty tome so I'm still my working through it

The point they raise early on in the interview has stuck with me... they state that most people (i.e. me!) are doing too much of moderate level activity and not anywhere near enough high intensity. This sums up my go  the the wall and potter about approach to training. I keep a log but it's historical only and so from what I've read so far I am genuinely excited to plan a periodic training schedule and see what's possible

Sasquatch

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Yep.  Read it cover to cover.

Here's the thread on the book http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=24215.0

petejh

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Haha oh yeah I remember now, that thread's how I came across the podcast! Circular web.

Knowledgeable guys and Neely's blog is excellent too.

Sasquatch

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Indeed...

slackline

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Haha oh yeah I remember now, that thread's how I came across the podcast! Circular web.

 :lol:

Got a copy of it myself* and am slowly working my way through it and reconsidering my approach to climbing.


* My dad was on holiday in the US so got it delivered there to avoid the shipping fees when buying direct.

Muenchener

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Got the book, read it, impressed. But I'm currently focused on endurance training for summer alpine goals, so doing more or less exactly the kind of stuff - lower body focused cardio mileage - that the Anderson Bros say is counterproductive for sport climbing.

In any case, I'm operating at a level - barely 6b onsight, just breaking into low 7s redpoint - where doing pretty much any kind of climbing related training will still bring benefits. I hope.

Three Nine

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I have bookmarked this as I only got chance to listen to the first 20 mins the other day. I have also bought the new book, based on positive reviews on the thread on here, but it's a weighty tome so I'm still my working through it

The point they raise early on in the interview has stuck with me... they state that most people (i.e. me!) are doing too much of moderate level activity and not anywhere near enough high intensity. This sums up my go  the the wall and potter about approach to training. I keep a log but it's historical only and so from what I've read so far I am genuinely excited to plan a periodic training schedule and see what's possible

are you strong these days Andy?

Tommy

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I liked that podcast the most for just how psyched they sounded. It's great to hear people talking so passionately about training and not being afraid to say it.

Thanks for the link!

a dense loner

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I liked the bits were the brothers were talking, she sounded like a star struck moron with an IQ of about 7. I cringed whenever she spoke

tim palmer

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I thought this was quite interesting, I thought they made some interesting points about finger strength and quality of training but I thought their advice on nutrition and aerobic fitness was absolutely awful. 
They also seem completely ignorant of the fact that they started as high level athletes which confounds this "evidence" that they have accumulated from their own experience. 

petejh

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Can you expand on that? What is it about their nutrition advice that is awful? And what it is about their advice on aerobic fitness that is so bad?

The nutrition section of their book is both the most comprehensive and clearly-written I've come across in training for climbing literature, but I haven't read everything so maybe something else betters it.

I very much doubt that either of them are 'completely ignorant' of coming from an athletic background. In different sections of their book they explicitly mention training for the college wrestling team and their love of cross country running.




tim palmer

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What is it about their nutrition advice that is awful? And what it is about their advice on aerobic fitness that is so bad?

During that interview they suggest that the best way to control your weight is not to do cardiovascular exercise and reduce our calorie intake.  They back up this assertion by their experience of a formerly elite level athlete with a young child who does not have enough time to go cycling and someone who has an almost unlimited amount of time to climb; do you think this is an accurate reflection of climbers as a whole?
Does it sound like a healthy sustainable way to behave?

What I mean by
They also seem completely ignorant of the fact that they started as high level athletes which confounds this "evidence" that they have accumulated from their own experience. 
They don't seem to concede that the reason that they have climbed so hard is simply the fact they are very physically talented people (training a very talented professional climber) and training in anyway would likely have produced similar results.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 05:38:43 pm by tim palmer »

petejh

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Well, to start with I'd say that they make it completely clear that losing weight in the context of climbing is not a 'healthy thing' at all! That needs to be born in mind when listening to/reading any diet advice connected to trying to climb hard. They aren't talking about controlling weight in the context of an overweight diabetic sedentary person who would benefit from a healthier diet and shedding a few Kg. The nutrition advice is specific to trying to send your hardest project route, and they advocate allowing your weight to increase back to normal outside of the short peak period of sending. One of the main points underlying their nutrition chapter in Rock Climber Training Manual is that dieting for hard climbing is absolutely not a sustainable way to behave!

I'm not sure how you can prove or disprove your second point. The training advice/plans they've created are based on solid evidence, people will make greater or lesser gains based on a whole number of variables including what you said. It doesn't make the advice any less valuable.

tim palmer

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I'm not sure how you can prove or disprove your second point. The training advice/plans they've created are based on solid evidence, people will make greater or lesser gains based on a whole number of variables including what you said.
solid evidence?
have they found some hitherto undiscovered source of robust sports medicine research?

Sasquatch

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I'm not sure how you can prove or disprove your second point. The training advice/plans they've created are based on solid evidence, people will make greater or lesser gains based on a whole number of variables including what you said.
solid evidence?
have they found some hitherto undiscovered source of robust sports medicine research?
Have you read the book?
They do quote sources for alot of their information, and explain why they think different study results apply to climbing in certain places.  It may not be perfect, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. 

I get where you're coming from, but you're basically saying their personal experience doesn't count because they're physically gifted.  I have a good friend who was also a division 1 runner in college, is dedicated to training and in 22 years of climbing has done 1 5.13a.  And that one he worked to death over about 50-60 sessions over 3 years.  He's "physically gifted" as well, but despite training in many different ways has never even come close to getting the same results. 

petejh

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solid evidence?
have they found some hitherto undiscovered source of robust sports medicine research?

The book's appendix lists over 100 references for anyone who wishes to do their own research or check the authors' interpretation. What other training for climbing material have you read recently that lists that many references. Really I think you're barking up the wrong tree and you should compare their book with what else exists - from what I've seen the Anderson brothers' book is hands down the best attempt yet at creating a training reference for climbing. It makes Macleod's book, Self-Coached Climber and Rock Warrior's Way look vague and fairly average in comparison, in my opinion. Perhasp I just appreciate the OCD style of the authors.

I also get where you're coming from - climbing's a new sport with a small amount of evidence-based training research etc etc. But that makes this book seem more impressive, not less - clearly the authors have been diligent in trawling through what evidence does exist.

Stu Littlefair

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I think Tim is being dismissive of  sports science research in general - and much of it is pretty shite.

petejh

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That's fine and I think most people come to a similar conclusion when they get keen about training and start doing their own research - or at least it soon becomes clear that there are widely conflicting views on all sorts of things.

It's one thing saying a lot of sports science is pretty shite, but that could end up being a pretty limiting attitude and you have to go with something (or just bimble along until some science that 'isn't shiteTM' pops into existence! I certainly got value from reading the Anderson brother's book and taking away what seems reasonable to help form training plans.

abarro81

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1. I would agree that most sports science research is pretty crap.
2. I thought the Anderson bro's advice on dieting and running seemed largely sensible
3. I agree that looking at what people who are naturally talented at one sport (e.g. running) have adapted well to may be flawed if you're not naturally good at sports. However, given point 1, we're not necessarily left with much choice other than to see what other people adapt well to, then try a bunch of those things ourselves and decide what we think works well for us (at least at that point in time, it might well vary over the course of seasons/years). At least they've been steady improvers, so are probably more useful to look at than many total heroes. Certainly more use than looking at someone like Steve Mac.

tim palmer

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I have not read their book but as I said I did agree with their opinions about climbing specifically i.e. finger strength and improving quality of training and their opinions are just as valid as eva lopez or marius morstad or which ever training guru is flavour of the month but it is just opinion and opinion formed upon experience of a limited subset of individuals.  They may cite a lot of references but if the quality of the data is poor it does not matter if there is mountains of it, it is still poor.

Regarding the diet issue I concede that in their book their opinions may come across as more coherent and balanced, however the opinions expressed regarding weight loss, intramuscular glycogen and diet in the podcast did not sound well thought out, advocating unsustainable faddy practices unlikely to produce healthy sustainable low body weight or quality session fitness on projects.

jwi

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I don't know who they are, but who would take advice about climbing from americans? People who like to climb 7a+?

Rocksteady

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#22 Re: Brilliant training for climbing podcast
September 05, 2014, 12:16:32 pm
the opinions expressed regarding weight loss, intramuscular glycogen and diet in the podcast did not sound well thought out, advocating unsustainable faddy practices unlikely to produce healthy sustainable low body weight or quality session fitness on projects.

In the book they make it clear that they are not looking to produce 'healthy sustainable low body weight'. They're looking to eat healthily throughout the year and then diet if necessary to peak and achieve a specific goal route for a short part of their training season.
The way I interpreted it is through aerobic, strength, power and power endurance cycles you eat normally, and certainly ensure you get the nutrition to recover from your training sessions. Then in your 'peak' phase, it might help if you diet to lose a few pounds to climb your goal route.

They come from an amateur wrestling background where it's 'normal' to cut weight pretty intensely for a weigh in - they're not advocating that sort of hardcore cutting for climbing. But nor are they saying you can eat what you want and climb to your utmost potential. Seemed quite sensible to me.

duncan

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#23 Re: Brilliant training for climbing podcast
September 16, 2014, 10:48:14 pm
​I’ve read the book and here's the mini-review.

 It’s a good summary of many current ideas on climbing training. It’s a big piece of work, very attractively presented, impressively comprehensive and detailed about the physical aspects of climbing performance. It largely builds - the authors acknowledge - on the ideas in Performance Rockclimbing. The fundamentals will be well-known to those that read about training and follow discussions here. There are numerous tips, new to me at least, which made it a worthwhile purchase despite the overall message being quite familiar. The Big Idea is a strong emphasis on periodisation and how this can fit around a busy life. They are very good on the practicalities of training. This is particularly attractive to the ‘...fat old dads, happily married with kids, ...” demographic.

​The cover blurb says the book is for everyone but 7a to 8a sport climbers will get the most from it. Boulderers and trad. climbers get a chapter each at the end. I don’t think it’s ideal for people operating at lower grades. In my experience, the most important limiting factor for most lower grade climbers is their head but the Andersons barely mention psychological issues. Readers are directed towards Arno Ilgner’s work but blink and you’d miss the reference. 

​The Andersons stress their approach is evidence-based: both from their own experience as performers and coaches and also on sports-science research. There is little direct evidence (work on climbing and climbers), so they have adapted ideas from other sports which they acknowledge may be invalid. As others have said, they have an unwarranted respect for the science in this field and much of the research they cite is not as transferable to climbing as they seem to think. As an example, they stress the importance in training different grips when fingerboarding. The one paper on the importance of joint angle in isometric training they reference is from 1984 and in quadriceps. It’s not my speciality but it’s not hard to find modern research into isometric exercise in the arm and leg, some of which suggests training muscles in a lengthened position (open hand in a climbing context) has hypertrophy effects that transfers well to shorter positions (crimping).
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/24504427
http://iospress.metapress.com/content/72mj6v9231416276/

​They have lots of love for Wolfgang Gullich (and campusing) but who doesn’t? They have less  love for the Hubers (and system training), possibly because - as the Andersons quote Todd Skinner in another context -  the Bavarians really did “send all their rivals’ projects and steal their women”! Systems boards get a couple of dismissive sentences, the main criticism being they are not campus boards. 'Limit bouldering' - pulling as hard as possible for one or two moves - is a key component in improving power, which shouldn't surprise many here. Isn’t system training just ‘limit bouldering’ done systematically?

​The chapter on planning and goal-setting is good, though I question how effective climbers are at identifying their own weaknesses. There should be more on objective measurements of performance. For example, if you redpoint 5.XX and can hang a 10mm edge for 10 seconds then finger strength is/is not a weakness; if you can foot-on campus for 90 seconds on 15mm edges, then power-endurance is/is not a weakness. The Self Coached Climber is better in this respect. I thought the section on weight management one of the best I’ve read: realistic and not beholden to fads.

​The Anderson’s brand their approach The Rock Prodigy Method. I’m not sure an accumulation of other’s ideas, tweaked slightly, is worthy of such a title, but that is the American way of marketing. If I was their branding consultant I’d suggest dropping Prodigy since, to my mind, that implies a young, instinctive genius. Everything this book isn't about.

A lot of book for £20. Cautiously recommended.

Sasquatch

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#24 Re: Brilliant training for climbing podcast
September 16, 2014, 11:07:21 pm
Nice Review!

Keep in mind they are the ones who wrote this:  http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Training_and_Technique/The_Making_of_a_Rockprodigy__258.html

And the book is their next prgression from there, hence the "prodigy" term.  It dates back to 2006.

kelvin

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#25 Re: Brilliant training for climbing podcast
September 17, 2014, 08:18:25 am
Nice article. As always, it's all about opinions and he openly admits this is what works for him. Case in point -

"I personally have never failed to redpoint a route because my lats weren’t strong enough to pull me up to the next jug. Unless you’re an elite ice climber, I doubt you have either."

My main weakness is not my fingers, it's my lats, my general all round strength. I'm certainly not an elite climber but I can list climb after climb where my basic strength has let me down. Flying Buttress Direct, Kirkus Direct and a whole host of HVSish roof stuff. I'm lucky if I can make three pullups, at the moment I struggle to do one but I can manage that max in the BM mono slots.

In general, I'd agree with most of that however because when I do train with structure, it's pretty obvious that I climb a lot better.


jwi

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#26 Re: Brilliant training for climbing podcast
September 24, 2014, 09:19:48 pm
Branded is a bad idea for reaching people like me who think: "branded diet/workout/etc=fad+bullshit=don't bother"

nathanie1

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I was quite interested in purchasing this book, but I've been slightly put off by Mike's views on stretching.

Obviously it's not on par with training finger strength and footwork, but surely being more flexible can only have a positive impact on your climbing? Watching the bouldering world cup I'm always impressed by how flexible most of the pros appear to be.

I also like the fact that on days when I really shouldn't do any finger related training I can always try and improve my flexibility (and one legged squats etc.). And then there's all the recovery benefits that stretching (and yoga) can have on your body. However I'll admit I can't back this up with any science, just my own experience :guilty:

petejh

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You could always buy a book on stretching if you want to get good at that  :shrug:

thekettle

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When I asked Dave Macleod about the notable absence of stretching from his book he gave a similar answer to the Andersons.

AFAIK despite much research there's no solid scientific evidence to support stretching reducing injury risk or reducing DOMS (aiding recovery).
Research suggest being at either end of the flexibility spectrum puts you at greater risk of injury. Stretching your own specific shortened muscles (if you have any) to achieve normal function makes sense. Pec Minor and Hamstrings in my case.
On the other side stretching does make you feel good, so as long as you don't pursue to hyper-flexibilty levels there's no problem? :shrug:
The physical benefits of yoga I would guess come mainly from the functional movement skills, body awareness, balance and joint/core stability it promotes.

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You could always buy a book on stretching if you want to get good at that  :shrug:

I always feel that my flexibility could be better.
I had a look around and found this app rather than a book

http://yogastudioapp.com


I think it was £2.99 - I just put it on and stretch following the app.
Think it's great having used it over the last few weeks.


Sessions are either 15, 30 or 60 minutes long.
Focus on balance, strength or flexibility.
Beginner, intermediate, and advance levels.


There's plenty to go at.
My limbs feel better for it!
Hope this helps  :2thumbsup:


iwasmexican

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I read a lot of the Andersons' book in the summer (thanks Sasquatch) then bought my own copy recently. It is definitely a book that reinforces rather than challenges my prejudices - hopefully that's not a bad thing. Besides "don't run" ( :great: ) it is also amused me that they don't mention stretching (let alone yoga etc) anywhere in the book. I mailed them through their site about this and got a response from Mark Anderson:

"Ya, we're not big into stretching.  I'm super in-flexible. There are situations where flexibility matters, but the vast majority of the time I think it pales in comparison to finger strength and footwork.  It's probably a good idea to stretch a bit in the interest of maintaining your existing flexibility, since your flexibility decreases as you age.  Actually I think climbing is pretty good "active stretching" in its own right, so you might be ok without dedicating time to stretching."

Yeah agree that apply way more for routes and big wall stuff than bouldering, sure theres a limit to flexibility but anecdotally it's so useful to have for how hard it is to maintain. Look at ned for how useful it is.

andybfreeman

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are you strong these days Andy?

Not at the moment! But, I am back in training and my fitness is returning very nicely through the base fitness phase.  I am coming back to the UK next July for my brother's wedding so my training is now geared toward having my season 2 performance peak coincide with my trip. I am looking forward to finally finishing Cider Soak

 

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