[Fiend]

Good debate guys.

The Malham right wing  / upper tier trad routes are very good as inland limestone goes. Much better rock and lines than the polished bollox sport below. Gordale trad seems a different kettle of fish.

[shark]

Given these were the only areas I accessed I daresay there is plenty more of this bullshit to discover.

Yep

Northerners can't climb ** E5 6a
This climb is in 2 logbooks, and on no wishlists.
Has been retrobolted presumably by mistake and even had a new name proposed. Grade is about 7a. Pumped out trying to clip the last bolt which seems in the totally wrong place. Next go I just missed it out completely - its harder to clip than to just do the moves. Looks like it might have been quite pokey as a trad route

This route is on a clean bit of rock BTW and looked like it could be climbed without cleaning when I walked under it last year. The bolting of routes further right made total sense but not this. Its a Paul Mitchell route. He is going to go apeshit.

Edit: Gary's topo shows the 7a as being adjacent to Northerners Cant Climb. What's the betting that the bolts can be clipped from it?

[Hydraulic Man]

Northerners is/was a great route.....

If thats the case then those bolts need to come out. There are a few that interfere with Spiron as well.

Neither are trade routes but where does it end??

Gary was given permission to bolt some of the trad routes on the right hand side of the crag, but then proceeded to rename them or forget they exist.

[mark20]

"This is in fact Norther's Can't Climb which has now been retro bolted"
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=325925

Doesn't sound like it was Gary's doing either...

[Johnny Brown]

For anyone confused Shark's reply is to a comment I made in another thread here:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24148.msg452914.html#msg452914

[geoffg]

I can't comment on the useage of the trad routes in the Peak as I virtually never climb down there any more, but I can say that in Yorks the routes are still being done. I still see people at Goredale on the more exciting pitches and the same can be said for Kilnsey. The difference is that they don't get the same volume of ascents as they did in the eighties. They haven't gone back to nature completely, but they are a bit dusty as they would be at the beginning of any season. More traffic would be great but it's not happening at present.

[SEDur]

This felt like such an important topic, my reply is becoming a blog post.

Surely bolting should be on a route-by-route basis, using a system which is inclusive of all routes, climbers and dispositions.

Maybe the current system of approval needs re-considering?

[highrepute]

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=240425

[Wil]

Surely bolting should be on a route-by-route basis...

I agree with this (not to say we can't have general principles for a crag), but have no idea what the bit after the comma means.

[mrjonathanr]

You can retro bolt if you fill in an equal opportunity questionnaire first.

[shark]

You can retro bolt if you fill in an equal opportunity questionnaire first.

  health and safety assessment first

[Johnny Brown]

Surely bolting should be on a route-by-route basis, using a system which is inclusive of all routes, climbers and dispositions.

I quite agree.

Maybe the current system of approval needs re-considering?

Any ideas?

I think we have a decent system (the current Peak area guidelines were a fine effort with input from lots of folk), and I'm not sure how it could be improved.

The main problem with it is that unfortunately getting the those keenest to retrobolt are least keen to engage in debate about their actions - because it requires effort and they may not get the result they want. Easier to just do what they want.

The other problem is that we've agreed route-by-route is the best system. Now getting more than a couple of folk to an open meeting that actually know the route is not always possible. So you don't always get an informed debate, or you get two people who know the route but have opposite opinions.

I'm a big fan of doing stuff like this online, as it gives more chance for folk to get involved, more chance to get informed opinion etc. But not everyone agrees, and I daresay it wouldn't engage the bolters much either. Plus if you take a vote it is much more susceptible to rigging by a rent-a-mob. So I guess an online debate leading up to vote at a meeting which interested parties can either attend or send a statement/proxy. Which isn't far off what happened for the Millstone bolt.

[SEDur]

I was going to suggest an internet ballot system based on BMC membership numbers or similar.

i.e. get the wholething hosted on the bmc site, and each voter enters his/her bmc membership number or a reference.
Having a show of hands vote at a meeting is great, but if you wanted to be more diplomatic, a discrete individual voting system would be a better option in my eyes. Similar to a forum poll.

It isn't like those who bolt are unreasonable. Infact, some are a blessing in the sense that at least they know what they are doing. Imagine someone clueless like me chosing to retrobolt something... It would be a mess. But this is all material for that blog post.

[kc]

I have pasted and edited this from conditions report as no one is biting.
 
Anybody know about the new (pointless so i'm told) belay between the top of Free Monster and BD?
There are four new routes left of Thatcher Years with what looks like a mix of galvanized mild steel bolts and hangers.
 Studying the last reliable guide they look to be mostly new lines with a bit of straightened out trad retroed.
This has nothing to do with GG Simon, i've already asked.
I am not particularly bothered about the ethics here, it's the use of crap gear I take issue with.
Perhaps the person doing this used cheap gear cos they were half expecting their bolts to get chopped.
If these routes become accepted and worthwhile will it then be the job of a bolt fund to re-equip them.

[SamT]

I was going to suggest an internet ballot system based on BMC membership numbers or similar.

So armchair climbers from east sussex can out number the few folks who are active in the area and vote in their masses to bolt everything ?

[SamT]

I have pasted and edited this from conditions report as no one is biting.
 
Anybody know about the new (pointless so i'm told) belay between the top of Free Monster and BD?
There are four new routes left of Thatcher Years with what looks like a mix of galvanized mild steel bolts and hangers.
 Studying the last reliable guide they look to be mostly new lines with a bit of straightened out trad retroed.
This has nothing to do with GG Simon, i've already asked.
I am not particularly bothered about the ethics here, it's the use of crap gear I take issue with.
Perhaps the person doing this used cheap gear cos they were half expecting their bolts to get chopped.
If these routes become accepted and worthwhile will it then be the job of a bolt fund to re-equip them.

sorry kris - haven't been to the cornice yet this year so cant comment.  Agree though that using shit bolts is a pain in the arse.

[masonwoods101]

I have been on free monster. We haven't been using the top chains and have been dropping onto the last bolt... The bolts for the chain are high and left and cause the rope to rub over the last step in the good which isn't too good

[highrepute]

These must be recent as I was there at the start of the month and didn't notice new routes or lower off. All of which sound like a bad idea to me.

[Offwidth]

On't'other channel Mick Ryan is claimbing there are dozens of important peak lime trad routes retroed with no attempt at consultation... smells like his all too common hot air but as a matter of interest what routes on peak lime do folk here think fall into that category? (like the recent case of Northerners would).

[Ru]

On't'other channel Mick Ryan is claimbing there are dozens of important peak lime trad routes retroed with no attempt at consultation... smells like his all too common hot air but as a matter of interest what routes on peak lime do folk here think fall into that category? (like the recent case of Northerners would).

I guess there's probably a few on the main sport crags. Some occupy a grey area where they were originally done with a lot of old fixed gear as pseudo sport routes, that gear rotted and the routes were retroed. Or were poor routes with indirect lines that were partially cannibalised by a direct route. I can think of a few possible candidates that have become popular routes after being retroed that nobody has made a fuss about for many years so I'm disinclined to name them at this point.

Darl has already been mentioned, and that would be one example where pegs and other fixed gear was replaced with bolts, which is why the bolting on it is sporadic and the first bolt is so high.

[Offwidth]

Thanks,

He was in a funny mood even for him, my charity work for guidebooks that sit in a warehouse in Leicester ffs.

[tc]

So you came over here to tell the big boys about it? Ah, bless.

[danm]

Rather, I think O/W was hoping to get some facts to back up or deny the assertion that a  number of Peak limestone trad routes have been retrobolted or have had their character changed by the prescence of nearby (i.e clippable) bolts on adjacent routes. Whichever side of the fence you are on, it seems worth finding out the truth so that the debate is informed. What nobody needs is another bolt war with routes being messed up with unnecessary bolt placements and/or chopping. As someone looking in from the periphery it seems like we appear to be sliding ever more towards this sort of nonsense?

[Offwidth]

So you came over here to tell the big boys about it? Ah, bless.

Yeah that'll learn him.

Mick is right my detailed knowledge of the early days of many of the grey area bolt lines is not ideal, but I was seriously interested if there were genuinely dozens of retroed important routes like Northerners or say Darl hiding out there. Given how upset people rightly get about bolt encroachment in recent years it was about getting a clear view. Folk can message me if they dont want public details, I understand the sensitivities now.

[Johnny Brown]

claimbing there are dozens of important peak lime trad routes retroed

'Claimbing' - is that what Rich Simpson used to do?

I guess it all hinges on your interpretation of the word 'important'. As ever discussing generalities here can go on forever, whereas a few examples will quickly get to some facts.

Edit: having read the thread in question, unless Mick has edited his post (entirely possible) it seems 'important' was Offwidth's addition. Without the word important its hardly a contentious statement.