[SamD]

Just acquired copy of this from the US. From first glances it looks like the best and most comprehensive text i have seen in a very long time on training for climbing. Full report to follow.

http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/

[abarro81]

Would be interested to know if you find anything new in there or if it's all the usual stuff..

[SamD]

Will let you know. To be honest i doubt there will be a great deal that is new, however it does seem well formatted and pretty good content wise so far. Nice to have a text that contains lots of information in the same place. Also comes with a training diary which is a bonus.

[Denbob99]

His blog has always been really good, interested to hear what the books like. Shame the international shipping doubles the cost

[Sasquatch]

Had a bit of discussion with a friend about this yesterday and our consensus was this:

Eric Horst's book will get most people to climbing 5.11. 

Self Coached Climber will get most people climbing 5.12.

Rock CLimbers Training Manual will get most people climbing 5.13.

Each one has taken a small step forward in the overall view on training, but they're by no means "new" or breakthrough for those who are already really into training. 

[mrjonathanr]

Had a bit of discussion with a friend about this yesterday and our consensus was this:

Eric Horst's book will get most people to climbing 5.11. 

Self Coached Climber will get most people climbing 5.12.

Rock CLimbers Training Manual will get most people climbing 5.13.

Sounds promising. When's the next one due? 

[Sasquatch]

So that was the second part of the discussion we had, was how do you progress from there.  I think the topic gets too broad at that point.  I think you'd almost need a 4-5 part series that had an overall book, and then had specific books on each aspect so you could really get into the dirt. 

For example, have one whole book on strength training covering the details of each exercise, and how they overlap and combine to get the full body strength needed. (gimme kraft sounds a bit like this, but not tied together well)  One whole book on PE, one whole book on endurance.  1-2 books on technique, and the progression of technique from the marco level(dropknee) to the micro level (which nubbin you use for the drop knee to get the right body position). One on the body systems involved in different types of training so you understand when/why/how to push yourself apporpriately. And then one to tie the whole package together.....

And I definitely won't be the one writing it.

[JimCon]

His blog has always been really good, interested to hear what the books like. Shame the international shipping doubles the cost

I got my copy through Amazon US for just under 23 quid, including shipping to the UK.

Just finished reading it through. I think that it's a great resource, well written and researched. I suspect that you could find most of the training science in other texts, but I think that the real value of this book is the way that it synthesizes all the info into a coherent (and adaptable) plan.

Ultimately though as Sasquatch suggests, the more experience you have of structured training, the less you're likely to gain from reading this...

I however am looking forward to climbing 5.13 

[Denbob99]

Well shit, that's not bad at all. Cheers

[2 Tru]

http://trainingbeta.com/media/mark-and-mike-anderson-interview/?portfolioID=3838

This was interesting especially the section on reducing training hours for 'j star' oh Americans.

[Rocksteady]

I've gone through the book now. Very interesting.

I was drawn to the ideas of the book re: training efficiency, working full-time but crushing hard at the weekend. I like the organisation of it, it's well-presented and collates a lot of useful training information in one place.

Their programme is straightforward and easy to understand. It logically makes sense. 3 seasons a year, working from a few weeks ARCing, few weeks strength, then power, then power endurance towards a peak.

What I'm not clear on is how this tallies with a more 'scientific' understanding of how our bodies adapt to training impulses. From reading stuff on here from Dave Binney's paper, and abarro's really useful summary of PE training, I thought that aerocap-type adaptations took a minimum of 8 weeks, ancap even longer, and aeropow and anpow about 6 weeks.

The 'Rock Prodigy' programme doesn't accord with these timelines - generally there's 4ish weeks aerobic base training, and 3-4 weeks for the other phases of strength, power, and PE.

Obviously their programme has worked really well for them and other people they've worked with. But I don't know exactly why if it's not in line with the way the body adapts to training. I wonder if what's happening is that the strength/power element is delivering the main benefits of recrutiment, and everything else is working, but sub-optimally?

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[abarro81]

The adaptation times are more about when you stagnate than when you start making gains.. Though ive never seen them well defined. I rarely manage to do full 6 month cycles so you have to shorten the phases. I think of their strength phase as being quite an cap esque, and don't forget their performance phase effectively carries on the work on the powers.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Can't quote as replying from my phone, but regarding the above 5.11/5.12/5.13 comments.
How does Dave Macleod's "9 out of 10 climbers" fit in to this scale?
Personally I struggle with training routines as they assume the desire to peak at a certain time some distance in the future, where as 99% of my time is week in week out pulling plastic indoor climbing so I need a much more micro-cycle / continued improvement process.
Sent from my RM-976_1142 using Tapatalk

[petejh]

I think '9 out of 10' is almost the antithesis to the other books - if it sits anywhere on the 5.11/12/13 scale it'd be on a remote corner of the land tut-tutting at performance-oriented people logging their fingerboard progression while recommending they work on their footwork more.

I though it was a good read at the time but I've never gone back to it as a reference, whereas with Self-Coached Climber I have, although it's also pretty limited beyond a certain point (aren't all training books though??). I think the main takeaway from '9 out of 10' for me was 'work towards climbing as efficiently as possible and always think about getting the weight on your feet'. But there comes a point when that isn't enough and your fingers might not be strong enough or you don't have the fitness, and then it's helpful to just be given some specifics to hit whatever you've discovered through self-analysis to be your biggest weakness. Although I think '9 out of 10' would inevitably point out that, whatever you think your biggest weakness is, it's probably not that and is more likely to be too much focus on specifics and training strength over technique.

Handy to think about as a counterpoint to the more 'stick to the plan' type books.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Thanks, I will borrow it as a read once kind of book, rather than buy as a reference then

[Paul B]

Nat is currently ploughing through 9 out of 10 climbers on my recommendation.

I agree that it's the antithesis of the other training manuals I've seen but what it does says is invaluable and there's a lot to be learnt from it (although due to its nature I can't see many people referring back to it often).

I certainly wish I'd read something like that, and not Horst in my early years of climbing/training.

From what you've said Gary, I reckon it'd be well worth a read!

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Cheers, will definitely grab a copy from somewhere then

[Wood FT]

Just to back up Paul's post, I don't train in any structured sense but in the past two years my climbing ability has increased in large due to reading '9 out of 10'. Changed my outlook that's for sure.


and changing shifts.

[petejh]

... in the past two years my climbing ability has increased in large due to reading '9 out of 10'.

Is that a measurable performance increase which can be attributed to a specific stimulus?

[Stubbs]

I remember the main take home from 9/10 being 'practice falling off routes lots', which kind of left me a bit lost as a boulderer!

[Wood FT]

... in the past two years my climbing ability has increased in large due to reading '9 out of 10'.

Is that a measurable performance increase which can be attributed to a specific stimulus?

is it fuck

[Sasquatch]

Since I was the one who made the 5.11/5.12/5.13 comment, I'd say there is a supplemental library on the mental and technical side of climbing that enhances the physical component of structured training. 

Starting from the assumption that folks who "train" are intending to maximize their potential (yes I know this is a big assumption), then all of these have a role in getting there.  While books like RCTM, and SCC mainly focus on the physical aspects.  Books like 9 out of 10, Rock Warriors Way, Better Bouldering(Dave Flanagan), Bouldering: Movement, Tactics, and Problem Solving (Peter Beal), The Boulder: A Philosophy for Bouldering (Francis Sanzaro) all focus more on the non-physical learning you need. Sorry many of them are on bouldering, but I think the problem solving component of bouldering is essential to hard roped climbing as well. 

[Tommy]

Just to back up Paul's post...  in the past two years my climbing ability has increased in large due to training like a Horst.

 

[Wood FT]

it's paying off Tom

[petejh]

Clearly a boulderer.

[Tommy]

Shut up. I train like a Horst, not eat like a Horst. How rude!

[2 Tru]

So the Anderson's advice seems to be based around a season long periodisation plan but what if you have 6 weeks until you next trip, what type of training should you prioritise?

The next weekend I am free to climb outdoors is 6 weeks time 

I climbed DNA in the Grande Grotta back in May this year along with a 6c flash in the Ivory Tower sector. I'd like to repeat the same grades in the UK probably at Portland, obviously the climbing style is quite different to the Grande Grotta presumably less upper body strength more finger strength/ endurance.

I know for the grade my fingers are pretty weak so should I spend the next 6 weeks getting stronger or trying to improve endurance following some energy system shizzle. I understand that the general advice is to work your weakness but what if you lack finger strength and endurance?

Thanks for your help.

[duncan]

The book is available from Cordee so probably in shops shortly.

[edit: currently out of stock, I guess some people have been reading this thread]

[edit 2: outside have it]

[Rocksteady]

For anyone that's interested in whether this book works, I can offer my experiences of having followed a 17 week training cycle attempting to follow the Andersons' schedule. Apologies for the long post - don't read it if you don't want the boring details!

Caveat - I started two weeks in, so had two weeks less of doing ARCing when I was mostly bouldering instead.

Starting ability: At the start of the year I discovered board training, and made significant improvements, going from being a V4/5ish climber to being able to do V6 in a session indoors and out. This was followed by pretty bad shoulder impingement. So I had a long phase where I was doing lots of antags and rehab but keeping going doing easy climbing once or twice a week. I'd managed F7a in 2 goes earlier in the year, which is about the same as I'd been able to do the previous year.

Goals: I was really experimenting on myself with this programme to see if it worked. My aim was to redpoint a F7b+, which would be a step up of one grade from my previous best of F7b in 2013 and 2012. As a Londoner there was nothing 'local', but I had a few options I'd scoped out at Portland and in Cheddar.

Workouts: NB throughout the programme I kept antagonist sessions going 1-3 x a week to keep my shoulder in shape.

First phase 4 weeks: 7 x ARCing sessions, 4 bouldering sessions, 1 x outdoor redpointing session with some mileage
I found ARCing quite hard to manage. I was mostly using an autobelay and traversing. I found it difficult to carry out these sessions at a busy climbing wall, with people queueing for the autobelay and looking grumpy. I generally would do 10 minutes autobelay at a time then try to do traversing for a bit waiting for autobelay to come free. I also did sessions where I did up-down-up of easy routes on lead, alternating with my mate. These were easier to manage but probably not ARCing or aerobic capillarisation, and more towards easy anaerobic training.
At the end of the 4 weeks I'd definitely improved my aerobic fitness for climbing.

Second phase: 4 weeks strength training. 7 x hangboard workouts, 3 x low-mid intensity routes sessions (probs PE), 1 x ARCing, 1 x above limit redpointing session trying an 8a.
I didn't manage to do all the sessions I'd intended - ideally I wanted 9 fingerboard sessions and some more ARCing. But I had some holiday etc. Also I did the fingerboarding mainly at home, so my volume of actual climbing was quite reduced. I followed the Andersons' beginners hangboard protocol of doing repeaters for 10 seconds on: 5 seconds rest x 5 reps, 5 grips. I used a Beastmaker 2000, which I've tried before but never with repeaters.
I initially tried to do this with bodyweight, but found I was nowhere near reaching 10 seconds on most of the grips. So after the first session I actually set up a makeshift pulley with a sling and took off 10kg, removing weight after each session. This way I actually made good measurable gains, with the last hangboard session with -7.5kg on grips that were hard for me, and no weight removed on the easy grips. I was pleased with this phase as (1) I identified that my fingers are actually pretty damn weak, (2) I particularly identified that if I remove my index finger I struggle to hang even good holds for 10 seconds.
I felt that my finger strength improved over this period, but more it was a kind of localised power endurance. I felt that what improved the most was an ability to hold bad-ish holds for longer, eg. while clipping. In my routes sessions I did some onsights of indoor routes that I think I would have failed on without this training. However, in future I'd be more inclined to reverse the protocol and do 5 seconds on: 10 seconds rest. I think this would be more aimed at increasing real strength and I'd be confident in making significant gains. Almost 4 weeks didn't feel enough, but I did start to feel a little bit tweaky so think it was enough. Following the discipline of the programme helped me to do this.

Phase 3: 3 weeks power training. 3 x campus sessions, 3 x limit bouldering sessions. I deliberately kept to only 2 sessions a week as I thought this would help with recovery and maximum power. I made rapid power gains in this phase, bringing me almost back to my previous V6ish strength in February. However, in the campus sessions I did too much 'warm up' bouldering and not enough campussing. By the time I started campussing I was a bit tired. I made some progress on the campus board but not much. Also 3 weeks felt very short. But at least I didn't get injured.

Phase 4: 3 weeks power endurance. 4 x circuit PE sessions, 4 x bouldery routes redpoint sessions -this is where I put some time in on my redpoint goal project. I didn't feel like I got this phase right. I did make a 2nd go redpoint of a bouldery 7a+ in my first week in this phase, which I think was testament to the efficacy of the previous two phases. This was probably a PB for me, especially as my climbing partner who is usually significantly stronger than me took 5 goes on the route to do it. However, in this phase I struggled to make significant progress on my goal route, a 7b+ called Infernal Din at the Cuttings. It has 3 distinct cruxes - a 5 move pinch and compression problem at about V4/5 (poor rest), a four move compression problem into a dynamic slap at about V3/4, (poor shakeout opportunity) and then a tricky 3 move rockover off a bad pinch and thin feet at about V4, followed by 4 or 5 easyish V2ish moves to the top.
I also struggled to find the right intensity on the PE sessions. My focus was a circuit I'd worked out in the system room that at the start I was able to do 20ish hand moves on, and after 3 weeks had got up to 30ish moves. But in retrospect I think they were too easy, and although very pumpy didn't replicate the power needed for the goal project. I also missed a few sessions here due to work and social stuff and think I could have tolerated more training (and have done in the past).

Peak phase: 3 weeks. 2 x route laps sessions, 2 x outdoor redpointing session, 1 x indoor redpointing session. I hadn't planned any proper trips to peak for, as it was sort of an arbitrary training plan based on the rest phase at the end falling in a 2 week non-climbing holiday with the missis. I didn't send my goal project, though my last session I managed to do it in overlapping halves. On another intended redpoint project in Cheddar I had 2 goes on it before having to go, one getting the beta and one serious go, where I managed it with 3 rests (it was a bit wet). This was significantly easier than the Cuttings project - in fact it felt a full grade easier. Indoors I managed a pumpy F7a in a couple of sessions which for me is quite good as I definitely favour power-style routes over PE.

Did the training work? I think so. I need to work out the power endurance phase, which I think was unsuccessful, and also next time I would try to peak with a trip in mind. I didn't get enough outdoor climbing in either. I also bit off more than I could chew on the Cuttings redpoint project, which was very beta intensive and body-position specific. I also think (based on my experience and a few other people trying it since the hold at the top broke) that now it's more of a 7c than a 7b+.

Not an unalloyed success, but not bad either. I quite enjoyed the variety of sessions in the periodised programme. I'd try it again for sure. Though I'm looking forward to a winter bouldering season which I'll probably be really weak for now.

So did the training work?

[nai]

As I read I noted a few things but you summed them up yourself.

I need to work out the power endurance phase, which I think was unsuccessful.

I didn't get enough outdoor climbing in either

PE is hard to get right until you've done it a few times and even then it takes a few sessions to set a circuit, get the intensity right, iron out stopper moves and getting the rest times right is tricky too.  I can't see how the three sessions they schedule can be enough (or how working bouldery routes constitutes PE training?) I reckon to make any difference to me this phase would need to extend to around 10 circuit sessions and I'd probably double-up the session with some Foot-on-campussing too.  Also needs to be specific, you mention it was 30 moves long yet your route was only 16/17 moves so not surprising that it was more pump than power. 

Unfortunate that you could only manage six outdoor sessions after all that training.  I've managed to work a plan around when I'll have time and connies might be ok then worked backwards from there.  Luckily this fits well around school holidays, etc but unfortunately I crocked my back extending my last performance phase to try and get the route done and am now restricted to nothing more strenuous than ARCing.

I felt that my finger strength improved over this period, but more it was a kind of localised power endurance.

Think it's been mentioned elsewhere that it isn't pure strength training.  My take on it has been to do sets of 4 & 3 hangs and I'm planning to add in a 1-rep-max later in the phase next time around.

Good start, probably take a few cycles before the benefits really start to show, are you planning to follow the bouldering cycle for winter then get back into another routes phase?

[slackline]

Introducing the great “Rock Prodigy Training Methods” survey…

[slackline]

Introducing the great “Rock Prodigy Training Methods” survey…

Some preliminary results

[Sasquatch]

A partner and I are just finishing a mostly RCTM structured plan.  So far, I feel fitter than ever for routes, and nearly there for bouldering despite currently being 10-12 lbs heavier than in the fall.  this is also the first year in the last three that I haven't had an injury set me back, so that could also be the basis for being fitter/stronger than ever.  I don't have a good route to test myself on at the moment, so it's all conjecture for me.

My partner is heading to Smith for a week and we'll see how he does.  I think he's seen tremendous gains and will continue to, but I'm not sure if it will show in Smith for him as it'll be his first days outside this year as well, ad that can be a tough transition.  He's got more of a sport climbing background, so the power and strength emphasis has really helped him step up. 

My overall impression is that sport climbers who aren't into bouldering and are relatively weak as a result would see great gains from the focus on strength and power.  For those who already boulder quite a bit, and enjoy both, I think you could develop a better plan focused on peaking for both and generally allowing for more quality rock sessions throughout. 

[blamo]

I think you could develop a better plan focused on peaking for both and generally allowing for more quality rock sessions throughout. 

Please elaborate...  Getting climbing advice for the moderately weak is miserable.  Everyone in the 8A range seems to make 7C climbing seem so obvious...  Same with 8a+ to 8b+.  I have been taking the Bill Ramsey approach.  http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=127383963

 

[mctrials23]

Anyone fancy selling me one of these on the cheap?

[Sasquatch]

I think you could develop a better plan focused on peaking for both and generally allowing for more quality rock sessions throughout. 

Please elaborate...  Getting climbing advice for the moderately weak is miserable.  Everyone in the 8A range seems to make 7C climbing seem so obvious...  Same with 8a+ to 8b+.  I have been taking the Bill Ramsey approach.  http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=127383963

I think the big difference I would make is to adapt the FB cycle to include a bouldering session 1 out of 3 sessions.  And add in max recruitment to the FB cycle.  Then you'd peak for bouldering during the later part of the campus/boulder 4 week cycle.  Then transition to PE and sport routes just after. 

[blamo]

Thanks for your suggestion.   

So it is sort of a mix.  Seems like there is always a place to improve on being a better climber.  I feel like the focus on always getting stronger blurrs this...  I recently climbed with someone who pointed out various technique flaws that I have and it enabled me to do certain moves which I would normally write off as "need to go home and spend X more months on the hangboard to do the move." 

[TheTwig]

I did a season of the RP method (following the book) and made some pretty good gains. Just got back from the end-of season trip a few weeks ago.

In summary: E1's were my best trad onsight, and had done about 30 of them, but they were all desperately hard and usually took me ages. Had a good season and made solid gains on the fingerboard (I think it was avg 15% improvement per grip over the STR phase), did the hardest indoor boulders I've ever done by end of power phase and likewise PE phase. Had a 10 day rest before going to Symonds Yat/Wye Valley (not exactly known for soft routes!) and did 5 E2's onsight (one of them an E2 5c), as well as effectively running up E1's. Despite ongoing problems with tennis elbow that are being dealt with I'm in the best climbing shape of my life : )

My progress pre RCTM was glacially slow and frustrating, so I'm a happy bunny. 

Sidethought: periodized trainining is brilliant for forcing you to rest/change up what you are doing. As a chronic over-climber it's been a godsend mixing it all up a bit and having rest periods that I stick to

[nai]

I think you could develop a better plan focused on peaking for both and generally allowing for more quality rock sessions throughout. 

Please elaborate...  Getting climbing advice for the moderately weak is miserable.  Everyone in the 8A range seems to make 7C climbing seem so obvious...  Same with 8a+ to 8b+.  I have been taking the Bill Ramsey approach.  http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=127383963

I think the big difference I would make is to adapt the FB cycle to include a bouldering session 1 out of 3 sessions.  And add in max recruitment to the FB cycle.  Then you'd peak for bouldering during the later part of the campus/boulder 4 week cycle.  Then transition to PE and sport routes just after.

While I didn't stick rigidly to the plan I did max recruitment as part of my FB phase and did indeed peak for strength and power after the campus/limit boulder cycle.  If you're planning to go on to routes I was wondering whether some AnCap work might be a good addition at this point too? Although I realise that starts to complicate on what should be a simple program. 
Big puzzle for me is that something has killed, or at least wounded, my Aerobic Capacity, I did a prolonged base phase (8 weeks x 3hrs) due to injury so it was sky high and have been maintaining it at an hour a week but for some reason it's just not at the same level it was last year when doing far less (2 weeks x2hrs base, 40 minutes/wk maintenance).  I was doing a lot of running last year that I haven't been this year 

[blamo]

I was doing a lot of running last year that I haven't been this year 

How much running is a lot?  I have found a moderate amount of running (20 km / week) to not hinder my climbing and probably help my overall fitness. When I have cut out running, in the past, I haven't noticed any benefit. 

[nai]

100-180km per month. It wasn't in an attempt to improve my aerobic capacity or climb harder, I just like running and the local feels were bone most of last summer. Unfortunately back problems have prevented me doing any for a while, I'm sure I'd be more likely to adhere to the RCTM rest times if I could.

[Sasquatch]

100-180km per month. It wasn't in an attempt to improve my aerobic capacity or climb harder, I just like running and the local feels were bone most of last summer. Unfortunately back problems have prevented me doing any for a while, I'm sure I'd be more likely to adhere to the RCTM rest times if I could.

100-180km/wk is quite alot of running.  I wouldn't be too surprised if it has impacted your Aerocap, but I'd also suspect not running has helped allow your power and ancap to improve.  I's think it may be a worthwhile tradeoff.