[quejada]

choc milk sounds much tastier that the protein shakes... I might have a go at it.
thanks for all the inputs, as someone suggested the first thing I need to do is listen to my body for these first few months on this new diet, and see how I get on. I'm planning on eating loads of yogurt as well, and nuts, seeds, etc...

I'm quite a dummy when it comes to diet vs training... few people here mentioned recovery after training and what would be the most appropriate food... so should I try and have a protein boost right after my climbing session? like drinking a pint of choc milk on the way back from the wall or something?
someone once told me to eat energetic food before training and high-protein stuff afterwards, is that correct?

[Stubbs]

like drinking a pint of choc milk on the way back from the wall or something?

   carb and protein snack within 30 mins of completing climbing/training session.

[tomtom]

Protein shake = 30p.
Pint of milk = 50p.
Chocolate milk = ~£1?

Choccy milk is about 1/2 that if you buy it in litre cartons.. Though its normally heavily laden with sugar too (is this a bad thing for a recovery drink?)

[abarro81]

Gonna depend on the session. After a big enduro fest it will be useful (if taken asap). After bouldering it'll prob just make you fat.
My point on the prices was just that protein isn't very expensive

[slackline]

4 pints of milk is £1 in tesco/asda, 95p in Aldi, thus my milk works out around 24.5p/pint. Choc powder from tesco = very little. If you use dried milk, it gets cheaper.

Dairy farmers aren't too keen on those prices though.

[quejada]

not a big fan of endurance - I've switched to the dark side of climbing and became a boulderer....
so what are your tips, revoery-wise, after a couple of hours session at the bouldering wall, or 30-40 min session on the fingerboard?
and before training? just some cereal bars?

[abarro81]

Eat before (sandwhich or summat), maybe a banana or two during, protein shake and bit of fruit after straight away, go home eat dinner asap and, if you have the motivation, do some upper body stretching and maybe a gentle forearm massage...

[Weesh90]

I wouldn't worry too much if at all about getting enough protein if you become lacto-ovo vegetarian.  Protein shakes are pretty much a gimmick and there is a complete lack of good quality research to support the claims of those who market them.  Quite a number of studies in the past 10 years have shown that you don't actually need a whole lot of protein to stimulate maximal myofibrillar sythesis ("muscle proteins") in fact a study by Cuthbertson (2005) showed that maximal myofibrillar protein synthesis in the young and old was stimulated by 10g of essential amino acids which roughly equates to 20g of protein.  Obviously you need to take in some more protein on top of that as skeletal muscle isn't the only part of your body requiring protein.  I think average daily guideline amounts are 0.8g/kg of bodyweight for the "average" person and 1.0-1.2g/kg of bodyweight for elite athletes, so for climbers I would imagine the former is good enough.  So even for a veggie, maintaining a well balanced diet will ensure you get plenty of the required nutrients and energy required.

There is also some interesting new research that high carbohydrate diets can stimulate muscle hypertrophy via certain anabolic signalling pathways and thus enhance resistance training adaptations, and that relatively lower carbohydrate diets can actually enhance the adaptations of endurance exercise but the danger with the latter is maintaining enough CHO's to maintain the exercise load.  However the latter is probably not relevant to training for climbing.

Regards to eating when training, it doesn't have to be particularly exact.  There isn't going to be a great deal of difference if you eat prior or post training within 1-2 hours either side of that training session, as long as you eat something around that session, that's the important thing.  The eating protein thing after isn't wrong as it's based on the fact that myofibrillar protein synthesis rate is at its highest approximately 1-2 hours post exercise, but again eating round about your training sessions should meet the requirements for "fueling" this process given digestion and intestinal absorption times.

So that's kinda the basic science behind it, but at the end of the day it comes down to personal preferences and listening to your own body and broadly basing it off the above.

[Paul B]

Also I guess it's worth pointing out that price point is not the best way to decide what to put in your body!

Whilst that's fair enough there does seem to be a knee-jerk reaction to shakes as some sort of evil, what's the basis for NOT using them (given the liver concerns etc. have largely been debunked*)?

It always seems to me like any industrialization of a given process seems to vilify it. The likes of Jamie Oliver get very upset when they talk about the huge food processors used to "whizz up" chicken bits but he's quite happy to use his Kitchenaid for a quick "blitz" every now and again etc.

*although like all things you can always argue or question long term effects.

[Stubbs]

Regards to eating when training, it doesn't have to be particularly exact.  There isn't going to be a great deal of difference if you eat prior or post training within 1-2 hours either side of that training session, as long as you eat something around that session, that's the important thing.  The eating protein thing after isn't wrong as it's based on the fact that myofibrillar protein synthesis rate is at its highest approximately 1-2 hours post exercise, but again eating round about your training sessions should meet the requirements for "fueling" this process given digestion and intestinal absorption times.

For me (n=1) if I waited a couple of hours to eat after a wall session, I'd be totally fucked the next day.  I guess people need to find what works for them.

Paul I think Jamie has more of a problem with the mechanically reclaimed nature of the 'chicken bits' that get wizzed up, but that's a little OT.

For me there's a shop at the end of my road that sells milk from cows that live a little further up the road. Obviously the dairy industry is industrialised too, but it's a less energy intensive process than splitting the milk and then dehydrating it, just so you can add water to it again!

[tomtom]

For me there's a shop at the end of my road that sells milk from cows that live a little further up the road. Obviously the dairy industry is industrialised too, but it's a less energy intensive process than splitting the milk and then dehydrating it, just so you can add water to it again!

Precisely. Perfectly put.

[Johnny Brown]

In principle I'd love to go veggie but unfortunately I fucking hate all fruit and veg, bar potatoes. I've never seen a cooked vegetarian meal I would consider eating.

[quejada]

tell me about it... I've been raised with ham, salami and the likes as an afternoon snack after school, day in day out till I was 16. I come from a place where granmas compete with each other for the best bolognese sauce recipe in town..

So it really kills me taking this decision. but in the end I guess it comes down to what makes you feel better, and now I've realized that not killing an animal just for a tasty sandwich makes me feel better than eating the finest BBQ ribs and sausages (that's what I'll be missing most, together with, I know it's weird, kebab...)

but hey, I've tried indian and thai cousine and they've got plenty of yummie stuff for veggies ... really..

[psychomansam]

4 pints of milk is £1 in tesco/asda, 95p in Aldi, thus my milk works out around 24.5p/pint. Choc powder from tesco = very little. If you use dried milk, it gets cheaper.

Dairy farmers aren't too keen on those prices though.

Sure. And I suggest people buy milk from co-op because they're more ethical all round. I do sometimes, but it generally involves driving out of my way to get it. I would buy our cow molly milk, despite the expense, but it's a right pain to find it skimmed.

In reply to others, last time I checked the available studies, the most important time to take on protein is beforehand. Think of it like water. If you start craving it, it's already too late (i.e dehydration has set in). The ideal is probably to take on moderate amounts of protein both before and after. And after should be JUST after, not 1+ hours. References here: www.google.com

[Jaspersharpe]

In principle I'd love to go veggie but unfortunately I fucking hate all fruit and veg, bar potatoes. I've never seen a cooked vegetarian meal I would consider eating.

I'm firmly in the meat eating camp but I think you'd change your tune if you went here....

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,11866.msg446855.html#msg446855

[Paul B]

Paul I think Jamie has more of a problem with the mechanically reclaimed nature of the 'chicken bits' that get wizzed up, but that's a little OT.

No, no, I meant the process. I've seen him (and others like him) vilify an industrialised version of processes they no doubt use day to day. I wasn't referring (or in any way supporting) the likes of dipping 'meat' in ammonia in order to use it in processed food.

I was interested to know why people feel that Protein Shakes = Bad, whereas in your case it seems like more of an environmental/lifestyle standpoint (which I fully accept)

[psychomansam]

I was interested to know why people feel that Protein Shakes = Bad, whereas in your case it seems like more of an environmental/lifestyle standpoint (which I fully accept)

They make bullshit claims, spend lots of money on marketing, are often expensive, and fill their drinks with all sorts of shit which may or may not cause long-term problems. And I very much doubt they have a digestible nutritional content equal to milk.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20100603/report-protein-drinks-have-unhealthy-metals
I can't easily find any other tests or studies to back this up.

Also, they're associated with twats who have nothing better to do than build useless large muscles and look in mirrors while wanking. Which doesn't really help me.

And as I said, they give me the shits.

[slackline]

They make bullshit claims, spend lots of money on marketing, are often expensive, and fill their drinks with all sorts of shit which may or may not cause long-term problems. And I very much doubt they have a digestible nutritional content equal to milk.

So do McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, Findus, Birds Eye, Iceland, Coca Cola etc. etc. etc., your point is?

Surely, despite the original question, this is just an issue about educating people as to what a healthy, nutritional and balanced diet is, whether that includes meat or not, rather than polarising it into a pointless and repetitive debate about the pros/cons of protein shakes?

[psychomansam]

They make bullshit claims, spend lots of money on marketing, are often expensive, and fill their drinks with all sorts of shit which may or may not cause long-term problems. And I very much doubt they have a digestible nutritional content equal to milk.

So do McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, Findus, Birds Eye, Iceland, Coca Cola etc. etc. etc., your point is?

Surely, despite the original question, this is just an issue about educating people as to what a healthy, nutritional and balanced diet is, whether that includes meat or not, rather than polarising it into a pointless and repetitive debate about the pros/cons of protein shakes?

Sure, hate those guys too. But they're not marketing their shit to sportspeople. The nutritional balanced diet is obv the ideal, but it's interesting how little we know about what that would look like. Someone quotes Xg/kg/day of protein needed above, but there's an opposing theory that elite athletes actually need less protein, and plenty of opinions which say our need for protein is being massively overestimated. 5 fruit and veg is almost certainly not enough. The 'science' (it's rather gappy) points to more like 7-10. How important is that to an athlete? Which of these two factors is more important for injury prevention? Should we have extra omega3? Why do vitamin tablets correlate with dying young?

[slackline]

Not targeting athletes! Bolt and McDonald's spring to mind, via class sponsorship of major spring events etc. Etc.

It's rare that there is ever a clear consensus on any source of scientific research there are always competing theories, that is tufa haute of the scientific method.

Perhaps provide some links to the primary research on the competing theories and research that has been done that you seem aware of rather than ranting against protein shakes and bigging up milk.

[psychomansam]

Not targeting athletes! Bolt and McDonald's spring to mind, via class sponsorship of major spring events etc. Etc.

It's rare that there is ever a clear consensus on any source of scientific research there are always competing theories, that is tufa haute of the scientific method.

Perhaps provide some links to the primary research on the competing theories and research that has been done that you seem aware of rather than ranting against protein shakes and bigging up milk.

I can't be bothered, but I believe I've done that before somewhere on the threads. Tempted to hit you with a lmgtfy, but again, can't be bothered. I have a paper I need to write today.

[slackline]

I don't need to Google it thanks.

If you're going to defend a viewpoint vociferously then you've a responsibility to back it up with evidence for others to go and read themselves.

Good luck getting your paper written, I've got boring staff training all day.