[webbo]

And how the fuck are you going to get to see a surgeon when as you said you can' t even get in to see your G.P. As even if you go private you still need a referral from you G.P.

[Jaspersharpe]

It's good to have Sloper back isn't it.

Utter conviction in every post, backed up by... Utter conviction in every post (ignoring his previous one or what anyone else has said).

:-)

[petejh]

I'm not a physio/doctor or anything medical, but I've been through the whole typical 15-20 year life-cycle of a back problem. I have/had terrible posture (slouched back and shoulders) and I'm naturally a 'tight' person  ().
My initial back problems were similar to yours Monolith. It started with years of muscle twinges/lock-ups, progressed through 2 episodes of herniated discs resulting in sciatica into the foot, separated by 2 years between. Both of which resolved with rest, time and targeted exercise. Via a 3rd herniated disc resulting in sciatica into the foot which didn't resolve through rest, time and exercise and which required an epidural injection to 'fix'. Finally to a 4th herniated disc in autumn 2012 (while hanging on ab taking an action pic for the NW lime guide) which caused sciatica again into the foot and went on for 10 months into summer last year when things came to a head as I lost all muscle strength in the big toe and my leg went numb every time I sat down or bent over.
This resulted in surgery in September last year, the surgeon said if I didn't have surgery asap I'd have permanent loss of muscle strength in the foot. He shaved off part of a large disc bulge at L4/5 which was impacting the nerve root, and at the level below shaved off a bone spur (osteophyte) which was also snagging the nerve root. I'd had 4 or 5 mri's over the years, all private. The bone spur wasn't picked up on them, just the very large disc bulge, but the surgeon thought it worth investigating at that level as well, seeing as he was opening me up anyway for the very large disc bulge (was masssive - glooped all over the nerve). I'm glad he did. My back/leg doesn't give me pain anymore since the surgery although I'm aware of it when I get fatigued or stressed.

BTW the majority of people reading this, starting in late teens, will have bulging discs but most don't have symptoms.


In short Monolith it's very likely you'll be fine very soon. Your muscles have gone into over-protective mode because your system has detected a threat to the structures in your lower spine. Whether the threat is real - as in you've a bulging disc irritating the nerve root, facet joints rubbing into each other, a bone spur irritating the nerve, or something else mechanical which shouldn't be there and which is causing mechanical damage; or whether it's the result of an over-reaction perhaps due to stress, fatigue and an unfortunate combination of a minor pulled muscle setting off a more major reaction than usual - you'll only ever know if the pain doesn't go away and you end up seeing people who'll investigate via physical tests combined with your pain patterns and as a last resort imaging if necessary. Or... letting a surgeon open you up on a hunch, for a look inside to investigate and fix something which may end up not being there (and none would do this anyway). And you'll go to see someone about it becasue it' obviously not clearing up. But it's very likely to clear up as long as you get mobile as early as you can and don't try to do a marathon next week.

You'll only know it's going to be a long-term problem if you go on to develop chronic back ache or sciatica - this is due to chronic inflammation resulting from an original mechanical issue. However you can do a lot to make it much less probable that you'll ever get to the stage of chronic pain by getting yourself checked out by someone reputable and following their program.

If you want to avoid long-term issues with your back it would be a very smart thing - (for anyone who suffers lots of back lock-ups) to find a reputable spinal specialist who can go through a program of correcting poor movement habits and posture, neuro-muscular stabilisation (balance exercises) and core strength training. All of this is very subtle when done correctly - it isn't sit-ups or leg raises! They require a swiss-ball but not much else.
I personally find occasional manipulation useful, but not all chiro/osteo/physios are equal - the good ones are worth their weight in gold while the bad ones are dangerous. I had a bad experience with a bad chiro years ago and have been dubious since, but the chiro at NW spine clinic is excellent. If ever in North Wales I recommend the north wales spine clinic, who are a husband wife team - one a chiro the other a very well-qualified and experienced personal trainer who specialises in corrective exercises for the whole kinetic chain to get you moving optimally.


But seeing a surgeon is really unnecessary in the early stages of back pain unless you start to develop neurological signs like loss of muscle strength in the leg or foot/ numbness around the groin area (there are lots more signs, and it's critical to get medical help urgently if you develop any of them).


Tomtom: Sitting is not good - lying or standing is better for your back. I type standing at a desk and I lie on the floor rather than sit in the comfy chairs at home. Not because I'm in any discomfort, just because sitting for extended periods, especially in soft chairs, is terrible for your back.

If I get the time I can put the surgeon's back care notes up - he's one of the most highly-regarded in Britain (Peter Hamlyn: http://www.theprincessgracehospital.co.uk/specialist-search/mr-peter-hamlyn/). They're basic sense but I didn't do any of it (except token gestures) until my back problems were well down the line of chronic injury.

(edit: I also got diagnosed with an infection in the vertebrae which may have caused some of the back pain I experienced last year which resulted in a long spell on antibiotics (Amoxycilin) to treat. It was the thing which came out in the guardian around March last year 'miracle cure' etc etc.)

[SA Chris]

Whats the best way of sitting down!

Might not work for everyone (probably doesn't!) but if my back is at all sore, i often sit on the floor if watching telly with my back against the arm of the sofa. I don't think standing does any harm provided your posture is good. Did you see my earlier link to the mckenzie lumbar roll? Might be good for the car instead of a scarf.

[tomtom]

Thanks Pete & Chris..
Yes I often sit 'under' the sofa leaning back on it...

[Monolith]

Pete, that's a mammoth of a post and really interesting reading. I have no grounds for complaint reading what you've had to endure and I'm very grateful for you giving your account. I'm away from home now at my girlfriends and trying to book an appointent with a local osteo before we have to go elsewhere. I'll be certain to digest your post more fully when back an the computer. Thanks agan for taking the time to share your story.

Thanks to all for their accounts ad advice too. Massive props.

[Nibile]

Brother, really sorry to read it's not sorted out.
I've been dedicating some time to fix my posterior tilt, ten minutes of the warm up, boring as hell despite my trying to make it an extreme full body effort.
I think it could be useful to also have your teeth checked: an incorrect occlusion can cause a lot of neck/shoulders/spine problems.
Also, I'd check the way you walk and possible ankle problems.

Get well soon animale.

[tomtom]

How did the Osteo go mono?

[fried]

I'll add this to a list of good back exercises:- Bird dogs. I find these really helpful, especially when leg raises hurts.

[Monolith]

Brother, really sorry to read it's not sorted out.
I've been dedicating some time to fix my posterior tilt, ten minutes of the warm up, boring as hell despite my trying to make it an extreme full body effort.
I think it could be useful to also have your teeth checked: an incorrect occlusion can cause a lot of neck/shoulders/spine problems.
Also, I'd check the way you walk and possible ankle problems.

Get well soon animale.

Thanks beast. That's precisely what I want to do - make it self competitive. Little and often from here on!

How did the Osteo go mono?

The Osteo was good Tom. The lady was an ex-gymnast/Circque du Soleil performer who had gone on to train as an Osteo once she could no longer backflip. She seemed to grasp pretty well what I had been trying to do with my core exercise regime but observed that there were plenty of others that didn't need to place such strain on my lower back (similar to what fried has linked to here - thanks for that!). She did a lot of manipulation and I was able to leave the practice standing up almost straight and in a lot less pain than when I had gone in.

It appears (and it has been observed before by Matt D) that I have very tight hamstrings and quadriceps/glutes that are causing problems. It's really very simple, I have to learn a lesson and do these daily now.

Thanks all for advice, well wishes etc.

[tomtom]

Thanks Mono - Mines eased off to the point where I was able to put on my strides without wincing this morning..

I've found that lying down as much as possible has really helped. I've been working lying flat on my back with my head propped up and laptop balanced on me - and at home been assuming the same position to watch the idiot lamp etc.. on a thermarest..

I also found that hip raises - from flat back, legs bent - lift the hips gently and hold - seems the best back warm up for me - and I can do them in bed before getting up which helps...

Intersting about tight hamstrings.. I had these a few years back and streching them out was a regular part of my warm up for years..

[SA Chris]

I know it's a tired old drum, but yoga can really help with loads of tightness issues. I've got my shit in gear and signed up for 6 sessiosnat work, starting tomorrow. Looking forward to geting back into it.

[magpie]

I agree about the yoga, I've seen a phyiso twice for my lower back and once for my knees in the last year, plus a biomechanics guy to deal with my feet issues which were / are contributing to my knee and back issues and the thing that has helped me the most with all of my ahces, pain and stiffness has been yoga.

[tomtom]

An update.
Its recovering nicely 5-6 days after it was really bad. I've been very careful of how I've sat at work - and in the car (raised seat and moved it forward a little so not leaning) - and been lying down on the floor instead of sitting on the Sofa. Its now at the point where it just aches and feels a bit sore rather than spasming and making me shout out in pain...
I was going to give it a try at the wall last night, but decided to continue with the rest and have a gentle work out on Friday...
Tom

[SA Chris]

Did my first yoga for a year last night. Didn't realise how bad my back felt until it feels better!

[Robsons]

Hi Mono,

Sorry to hear about you episode. I read your local physio is away, I know to REALLY good physios that you could try?
I know that they would be happy to help over email initially if that is preferred and if travel is a big issue (which I am assuming it is)?
PM me if you want their details and I will gladly pass them on.

Glad it is improving and hope your recovery goes well.

Robin

[tomtom]

Ach - backs going again... just the left hand side now...

It was back to normal and on Sunday I gave it some beans on the fingerboard and gave myself a little crick in the neck (LHS) and woke up this morning and its bastard tweaked again

grr....

[Dolly]

Did you go to see a physio TT ?
Honestly its worth it

[lagerstarfish]

deadlifting

[tomtom]

deadlifting

Deadlift the Physio?

[Sasquatch]

deadlifting

Deadlift the Physio?

to start, work up to the physio and assistant.

[tomtom]

Did you go to see a physio TT ?
Honestly its worth it

I really don't know where to start...

With my split life existence I dont know whether to look for one in Hull or in Manchester - online/yellow pages has loads in both places - and most talk about back problems..

MrsTT had a load (6-9 months worth) of osteopath sessions down the road from her - but that seemed to make things a bit worse and as someone said to her - if it wasnt working after a couple of months he was either bad or osteo was the wrong option. This contributes to my distrust/concern/uncertainty...

[Falling Down]

Just try one and go from there.  Don't get stuck with the same one either... if no improvement four-six weeks get another. 

Also, I find that some (not all) can get stuck with their initial assessment of problem and treatment and then fail to do an objective secondary diagnosis once the primary problems are fixed and then continue hammering away with the same, possibly ineffective, treatment.

Backs, necks and elbows are complex things and when they're fucked it's usually one major and several minor contributing factors.

[Oldmanmatt]

deadlifting

Deadlift the Physio?

No, no, no!

Live Lift FFS,


'Cos that's only assault.


The other one's Murder....

[SA Chris]

Just try one and go from there.  Don't get stuck with the same one either... if no improvement four-six weeks get another. 

Backs, necks and elbows are complex things and when they're fucked it's usually one major and several minor contributing factors.

+1. Any physio is better than fuck all. I'm sure there are people on here who can recommend one in either Hull or Manchester, as good a starting place as any.