[Rocksteady]

So I've decided my bouldering training sessions have been way too focused around problems that are currently within my limit - i.e. I can work them within one-three sessions.

I want to try out proper high intensity, low volume training using a board. But I've never done it before. It feels weird trying problems where I can only just pull on or barely do one move. It sort of feels improbable that I will improve doing this stuff. But I'm pretty motivated by the idea that 6 weeks down the line I might be able to do multiple moves off stuff I can only just hold right now.

At the moment I've sort of got a few mini-projects - one where I can do the problem in 3 links, one where I can do a few moves, and a couple where I can only do one move or just pull on.

Can anyone give me any tips on how they structure a max intensity board session? How many problems, how many tries, how much rest between goes?

Cheers!

[Doylo]

I like to mix it up a bit and do 6ish of the usual problems increasing in difficulty before getting stuck into something I can't quite do the moves on (gets you proper warmed up too).It's good to have a couple of these like you say. One where you can only hang the positions and one where you can do the moves but can't quite link it. Sounds like you've got a plan. I probably spend 40 minutes on the max problems, I don't think you need much rest if you're literally just pulling one or two moves.

[krymson]

My experience has been

Working hard problems with moves you can barely do: useful in small chunks for learning technique but not that great for strength. You have to try these sometimes though to progress and sometimes you will surprise yourself and pull it off.

Working problems in hard links of 2-5 moves has been the most effective and efficient for me in terms of building strength and technique for hard bouldering. once you can do more than that, you would move on to something harder.

[Sasquatch]

So thinking about it from the standpoint of weightlifting, where there has been research on the topic, doing eccentric or isometric only has been shown as a means of helping improve recruitment.  Seems like it is a blend of neurological recruitment and actual strength gains.

How that applies here:  Isometric would directly relate to those problems where you can just hang the positions, but there's no direct comparison for the eccentric only - Maybe the closest would be having someone take weight for a move you can't quite do. 

Insofar as the moves you can do but can't link, could be comparable to how many reps you are doing in lifting.  Generally, classic maximum strength training is done in the 3-5 rep range, so 3-5 moves problems at your absolute limit would be the closest comparison on a board. 

Can anyone give me any tips on how they structure a max intensity board session? How many problems, how many tries, how much rest between goes?

Cheers!

As Doylo said before - a good solid warmup including a few high intensity problems near your limit.   
Then for maximum intensity training, you generally want to be "fully" recovered, so I would say for the single move you'd want about 5 minutes rest, and up to 15 minutes for the longer links.  The problem with saying that is determining whether you're falling off due to movement issues (in which case shorter rest is fine) or actual strength failure (IMO this is quite rare).  Videoing yourself can really make a difference in these cases(determining if its movement error or actual strength failure), and you've got time to burn while resting, so go for it. 

[Monolith]

I like to mix it up a bit and do 6ish of the usual problems increasing in difficulty before getting stuck into something I can't quite do the moves on (gets you proper warmed up too).It's good to have a couple of these like you say. One where you can only hang the positions and one where you can do the moves but can't quite link it. Sounds like you've got a plan. I probably spend 40 minutes on the max problems, I don't think you need much rest if you're literally just pulling one or two moves.

Summed up perfectly.

I'd also add that if you can hang poor holds of any type (especially wide) on a projected line but can't quite link them, it can be worth doing 'pull ins' with feet on poor holds whilst in position front on. Some repeated sets of such an exercise has certainly aided the linking of moves I've found hard. After all, once you do hit the hold you're going to, you're going to need to suck it in and be strong and fresh for the next move.

It feels weird trying problems where I can only just pull on or barely do one move.

Never despair of this. Never.

[SA Chris]

I was thinking about this last night and trying to break down my routine and my wall session involve (as a general rule)

I always have a mental list of "probs I can do easily" and "probs I can do with a bit of effort" "possibles" and "impossibles"

a) Warm up on some PICDEs, usually some verticals and then a few on steeper walls, often climbing prob, then downclimbing, stretching the limbs a bit while doing so. The list can increase or decrease depending on form, or if there has been a problem reset recently. Have a bit of a rest and a drink shoot shit.

b) do a couple of PICDWABOUEs just to get the neurons firing nicely

c) Put in peak of effort on POSSIBLES. Work individual moves if needed, get hard moves and crux sequences wired, have a decent rest between tries and try to get a few of them ticked. I enjoy this part of the session the most, it stokes the ego getting a few successful ascents in. However fatigue soon sets in as these are usually steeper more strenuous probs and it's soon obvious that returns on effort are diminishing. Mentall log outstanding "possibles" for working at next session.

d) Have a go at some tricky vertical probs. For me the legs, feet and fingers seem to work OK long before the arms and shoulders are struggling, so I can get by on footwork and technique and get a few ticks of harder vertical "possibles". Rest and a biscuit.

e) Have a go at some individual moves on "impossibles" I admit this is not a highly productive time, but I can still manage to at least hang on a couple of crap holds, figure out some beta, and do a move or too, and assess what I need to be doing better to get harder stuff done.

f) Warm down doing a few PICDEs a couple of times. They usually feel harder at this point, so need to work technique and footwork hard, and climb lightly due to trashed skin.

g) token couple of stretches.

[shurt]

I confess I've never put a lot of effort into board sessions and my trips to the wall seem to follow a similar script to Chris. However, needing to increase fitness to link a problem you can do it halves or thirds is not that difficult.
The way I did it in the past was to use circuits of problems of similar difficulty at the wall. I go to tca in bristol and each curcuit has about 25-30 problems. I try to do all the problems with no rest in between apart from the time it takes to jump down and find the next one. I'd do a whole circuit of slightly taxing probs, rest well then a curcuit closer to my onsight grade but not quite.
I did this for a few weeks twice a week and was getting up a lot of things that I couldnt link before afterwards.
I also think it depends what level you're climbing at. I used the above to get from about v4ish up to v6/7. I always feel that boards come into there own as you go up the grades but might be wrong (see 1st sentence).
Good luck with it all

[SA Chris]

I dream of having access to circuits......

[Rocksteady]

Thanks for the info all, interesting food for thought.

I think my current sessions are a lot like SA Chris's, except I spend very little time on (e) - the impossibles.

My thinking is that for the winter I want to mainly spend time trying stuff that seems impossible, to see if it really is, or whether I can redefine my ideas of what's possible for me. Essentially, instead of building the fitness to do problems that are already within my strength capabilities (i.e. I can already do the moves, I just can't link them), I want to build the RAW POWER to do problems/moves that currently are impossible.

I'm going to try the 3 week loading/1 week performing split, where I try more and more hard stuff for 3 weeks in a month and then in the last week rest a bit more and have fun trying to climb 'possibles' rather than training for 'impossibles'. Hopefully this will keep psyche high.

I'll try to remember to report back in January/February. That's if my fingers aren't so strong by then I just crush keyboard keys into oblivion...   

[Richie Crouch]

I usually warm up slowly then do a few sub maximal problems. Short rest then have 10 attempts on each of the moves I can't do on the project problem (be it on a board a set problem). I have at least a 45 sec to 1 min rest between each go, making sure you can give it a max effort and tweaking body position/grip/flagging..etc until it feels like progress/recruitment is being made. I stop when I start to go backwards/feel the strength fading and have a rest, then go and try links on some p.e. Problems in the cave (longer sub max efforts).

It's Still good to have at least one session a week just doing volume to remember how to link moves together and feel like you can climb!

[SA Chris]

I have just one session a week!

plus a beastmaker session or two. Soon to change though; see "build your own woodie" thread.

[TobyD]

So thinking about it from the standpoint of weightlifting, where there has been research on the topic, doing eccentric or isometric only has been shown as a means of helping improve recruitment.  Seems like it is a blend of neurological recruitment and actual strength gains.

How that applies here:  Isometric would directly relate to those problems where you can just hang the positions, but there's no direct comparison for the eccentric only

eccentric - drop downs/ reversing moves would fit the bill as far as i can see.
The comparison with weightlifting may be valid, but worth remebering that this is comparing an open chain exercise to a closed chain exercise, I am very far from being an expert but as i understand it there are neurological and physiological differences - a training effect gained in one sort will translate relatively poorly to performance in the other.

[Sasquatch]

True, there is a difference between open and closed chain, but references I've seen related to isometric loading effects have used both bench(open chain) and squats(closed chain), so on the surface it would appear to impact both situations.  In both cases, the isometric loading is done to help prepare your body before actually trying to lift that weight.  I haven't looked at the studies in a while though, so could be way off my marker....

I'm not sure about the reversing moves as eccentric....  I think sometimes they could be considered eccentric, but not always.

[Nibile]

One of the keys to max intensity sessions is patience. Taking good rests, managing perfect skin, and managing volume, which must be low.
This is difficult to me, when climbing, because there's always "one last go" to try and climb the problem. That's why I sometimes practice max intensity on system moves, rather that climbing: it's easier to notice the decrease in power and change excercise.
Plus, it's really max. It's very difficult to to set single moves at the limit, to me, without making them too morpho, but working singles is very good: holding the position first, trying to move then.

[TobyD]

True, there is a difference between open and closed chain, but references I've seen related to isometric loading effects have used both bench(open chain) and squats(closed chain), so on the surface it would appear to impact both situations.  In both cases, the isometric loading is done to help prepare your body before actually trying to lift that weight.  I haven't looked at the studies in a while though, so could be way off my marker....

I'm not sure about the reversing moves as eccentric....  I think sometimes they could be considered eccentric, but not always.

first point... hmm yes that seems as though it would be more climbing relevant, second point, when would they not be?

[Nibile]

In the first part of this video, some max intensity training, on single moves.
Leaving the ground and holding the position in the first excercise is already a max effort. The original idea was to lock the underclings and go to the higher underclings as for "Hubble problem". Cough. One move 8a+?
In the second excercise the holds are bigger, so I can pull on more easily but then the move is still hard, and I needed a good hold to complete it. The original idea was to go to the small edge on top of the hold I grab. Hard!

The moves on the following problem, are nowhere at the limit as singles. Hard to link though.
In that session, I didn't do much more than what is shown in the video. Very low volume, still the following day I was wrecked.

[Sasquatch]

first point... hmm yes that seems as though it would be more climbing relevant, second point, when would they not be?

Seems to me the steeper the wall angle, the less eccentric they would be. Vertical would be very eccentric.  Caves wouldn't be at all.

[Rocksteady]

Little update on this - mainly as I need to ask another question.

For me the gains from board training over the last 2-3 months (at least measured by ability to do moves / problems on a board) have been really encouraging. Able to keep feet on way better, make bigger moves between smaller holds. I'm super psyched.
I haven't yet been able to get outside to test how it's transferred yet but have had a number of indoor sessions where I've been ticking numerous problems at a level I'd have previously considered to be my maximum.

Question: I've ticked a number of 'project' problems on the board now. Do I keep going back and repeating them until they become easy? Or is this just futile grooving of specific movements when I need to be diversifying into other projects that I can't do? Or should I both repeat past projects and work on new ones (making my sessions longer)?

Thanks

[Doylo]

Combination of both

[SA Chris]

Depends how nice the probs are! If they are horrorshows, let them be but if they are great problems, no harm in doing them again, only trying to do them better.

[Eddies]

I include a 'classics night' every 4-6weeks where I climb as many of my fav problems and test pieces as I can.
Works well to gauge how your improving and breaks the monotony/pain of a periodised training plan!

[honroid]

I go with something along the lines of:

strength phase = try new moves, stringing together a few moves
power = linking moves, creating problems
PE = sending problems, creating circuits / 4x4s etc

[groovedog]

I go with something along the lines of:

strength phase = try new moves, stringing together a few moves
power = linking moves, creating problems
PE = sending problems, creating circuits / 4x4s etc

What sort of time scale and frequency do you work to?

eg 4 wks strength, 4 weeks power, 3 wks PE with a view to be strong on a specific route?

2-3 sessions in the week climb / boulder outside at the weekends?

[honroid]

I'm a teacher so I work around (6-7 week) half-termly cycles of training, building towards a 1 or 2-week climbing trip.

Currently strength phase until Feb half term
After that Power phase til Easter
Then PE until Spring half term

Following on from that, good weather so redpointing project routes all the way to the summer then off for a 6 week bouldering trip. All kinds of wrong in that last phase I'm sure!
Something like that anyway. Try to get out on the weekend when weather permits and climb the breaks so I'm sure that undoes some of the periodisation.. Anyway.

[Rocksteady]

Update on this for those interested in training methods and responses etc

I started training on the board in early November, and got my session structure sorted after the advice following this post, so probs around early December. I've been averaging 2 sessions a week on the board since then.

Generally warm up doing standard bouldering, try a few thing at V4/5 level up to 3 times to get recruited, then focus on different problems on the board. I tend to start with ones that I can make substantial links on, try these 3ish times, then work some ones where I can just hold the positions or do one move.

I've ticked a number of things on the board where I couldn't do the individual moves 3 months ago. Some of this is recruitment, some will be specific body positioning, technique learning etc. I've tried to keep the problems I try pretty basic though to minimise improvement through technique.

Things I've noticed - I'm way better at keeping my feet on through big moves, on poor footholds. Just magnitudes stronger. I'm happier climbing dynamically than I used to be. I've found I can do moves on V7, V8 and V9 problems, when before I hadn't even tried.

Background: 6 years regular sport climbing up to F7b, started regularly bouldering at the climbing wall in 2011.
Measurables: I track the hardest problems I do in a session (as graded by the wall or on a board by my perception of difficulty).

In 2012 I ticked 5 problems over the year graded V5.
In 2013 until I started on the board I ticked 6 problems graded V5 or 6, including a V5 and V6 outside.

Since starting the board work I've ticked, in my warm ups for the board, or on my board projects - 14 problems graded V5, and 8 graded V6.
In my one afternoon snatched climbing outside this year amidst rain-maggedon I ticked a V6 in a session, where my previous best was V6 in 3 sessions. Different style problems, though I'm pretty sure the one this year had harder moves.

Obviously I'm not setting the world on fire and utterly smashing through grade boundaries, but I've made pretty definitive progress, which is encouraging. However, I'd say that I am stronger, not 'better' at climbing. The problems I've ticked, surprise surprise, tend to have involved basic pulling, big moves on poor footholds. Comp style techy boulder problems still leave me stumped at the same grades as before starting board training. 

On the downside I'm feeling mild tweaky golfers elbows on both sides, and my back and shoulders are quite sore after most of my sessions. Given this I think the only sensible thing for me to do now is to back off the board training and rest, do physio type exercises and antagonists and easy volume for a while until I feel recuperated - hopefully not too long. Think I'll mainly do routes for a while to start to get in shape for the Spring. I think I'll have to keep a little bit of maintenance work in on the board so as not to lose what I've gained, but I guess I'd better be careful.

All in all I'm far from being lord of the board but have really got into using it, and think it will be a big component of my diet of training at the climbing wall from now on.