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How relevant is symmetrical ability? (Read 11023 times)

Dave Flanagan

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How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 09:48:12 am


The wall recently added a symmetrical board and I had a quick play on it the other day, set a medium difficulty problem and then tried the mirror image. Found the mirror image significantly harder. In particular the moves going with my left hand. This isn't really a strength issue as I can deadhand and lock pretty much as well on each arm.

Is this a serious weakness in practise?

highrepute

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#1 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 11:15:06 am
not so much a weakness as an opportunity?

You've highlighted a weakness on one side that you weren't aware of. Clearly you are capable of correcting it because you know you can do it on the other side. get training and get balanced.

The risk is you ignore weakness and carry on getting strong, but preferentially on your strong side. but your weak side will always be holding you back. Get some balance and you will see more improvements.

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#2 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 11:33:19 am
Good lookin piece of wall that...

duncan

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#3 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 11:56:14 am

I'd say it's worth working on. It's similar to the beasty boys assessing individual finger strength and grips and training the weakest ones. There is some evidence, though not consistent, that symmetry predicts performance and strength asymmetry predicts likelihood of getting injured in elite athletes.

You are lucky to have the facility which enables you to start to evaluate asymmetry. Although, since I presume you had a hand in building it, it might be more than just luck! If I were a coach, I would use a couple of system type boards at different angles to objectively assess a set of standard climbing moves bilaterally to pinpoint weaknesses. I'm not aware of anywhere in London that has such a set-up unfortunately. They all have campus boards of course but these should be just one of several devices to systematically train movement not the only one.




Dave Flanagan

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#4 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 11:58:19 am
The angle of the board on the left can be adjusted.

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#5 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 12:03:49 pm
Dave is that at Awesome walls, doesn't look like Gravity??? Recent trips out resulted in failures on problems (Gully's probem etc.) that all seemed to need a strong LH and I am a natural righthander ... I was sure if I had used my RH I would have been OK  :-[ I'll be checking that board out next time I am over

Dave Flanagan

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#6 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 12:08:22 pm
You are lucky to have the facility which enables you to start to evaluate asymmetry. Although, since I presume you had a hand in building it, it might be more than just luck! If I were a coach, I would use a couple of system type boards at different angles to objectively assess a set of standard climbing moves bilaterally to pinpoint weaknesses. I'm not aware of anywhere in London that has such a set-up unfortunately. They all have campus boards of course but these should be just one of several devices to systematically train movement not the only one.

No nothing to do with me. No system board (I know the board we are talking about isn't technically a system board) in the whole of London?

Dave Flanagan

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#7 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 12:10:10 pm
Yes Awesome Walls training room. http://www.awesomewalls.ie/gallery/training-room

Dave Flanagan

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#8 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 12:15:21 pm
I'd say it's worth working on. It's similar to the beasty boys assessing individual finger strength and grips and training the weakest ones. There is some evidence, though not consistent, that symmetry predicts performance and strength asymmetry predicts likelihood of getting injured in elite athletes.

But Vollyball is fundamentally symetric, ie you always do the same thing with the same hand, so I don't think it's that surprising that this has a part to play in injuries. Climbers should aspire to be asymmetric right? To what extent can technique and sequencing overcome the dominat hand problem.

Should say as well, I don't believe this to be a strength issue but one of coordination.

Paul B

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#9 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 12:30:15 pm
I've never been wholly convinced by symmetrical boards.

They're great for identifying movement issues between sides but people who train on them a lot still have weaknesses that haven't been ironed out by symmetrical training which must run deeper (genetics? spending the past 20 odd years writing with one arm? etc.).

Dave Flanagan

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#10 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 12:43:54 pm
I'm not sure that those weakness couldn't be improved quite quickly. About a year ago I got it into my head that I wanted to be able to juggle 4 balls which requires juggling two in each hand, initally I couldn't juggle 2 in my left hand to save my life, but after a decent bit of practise  I'm now pretty much as good on either side and the left side feels more natural and instinctive. Read into that what you will.

duncan

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#11 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 01:48:28 pm
No nothing to do with me. No system board (I know the board we are talking about isn't technically a system board) in the whole of London?
Not that I am aware of. I was hoping someone would point out that Wall X had just installed an all-singing and dancing system board so I could have a play on it. But then there is very little variation in what most climbing walls provide.


But Vollyball is fundamentally symetric, ie you always do the same thing with the same hand, so I don't think it's that surprising that this has a part to play in injuries. Climbers should aspire to be asymmetric right? To what extent can technique and sequencing overcome the dominat hand problem.
I'm not sure I follow this. Do you mean that climbing movements are usually asymmetric? My point was there is equal likelihood of coming across a powerful left hand gaston move as a right hand one so it would seem sensible to assess and train to be equally strong on left and right gastons. I'm sure we all work around strength (or coordination or flexibility) asymmetries that most of us are unaware of. That doesn't mean that being aware of them isn't useful and something that might be worth addressing.


Should say as well, I don't believe this to be a strength issue but one of coordination.
I think you could assess both in this fashion. As I'm sure you know, there is an element of coordination in even the purest 'strength' test.

Dave Flanagan

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#12 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 02:29:35 pm
I'm not sure I follow this. Do you mean that climbing movements are usually asymmetric? My point was there is equal likelihood of coming across a powerful left hand gaston move as a right hand one so it would seem sensible to assess and train to be equally strong on left and right gastons. I'm sure we all work around strength (or coordination or flexibility) asymmetries that most of us are unaware of. That doesn't mean that being aware of them isn't useful and something that might be worth addressing.

Sorry, I was unclear. I agree cimpletely with you. It would quite straightforward to assess finger strength and arm strength with some simple tests. If one's asymmetry was great than those test results suggest then it would be down to technique?


Paul B

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#13 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 03:29:32 pm
I'm not sure that those weakness couldn't be improved quite quickly.

My point is that they haven't been, by people who use these setups fastidiously. I was suggesting this could be down (in some part) to underlying genetics etc.

For movement analysis and working on such things then yes but I remain to be convinced that they'll iron out every asymmetrical weakness you may have.

erm, sam

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#14 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 03:37:30 pm
Quote
I agree crimpletely with you

That phrase deserves to exist. It will be particularly useful when discussing beta.

Dave Flanagan

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#15 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 03:50:42 pm
My point is that they haven't been, by people who use these setups fastidiously. I was suggesting this could be down (in some part) to underlying genetics etc.
For movement analysis and working on such things then yes but I remain to be convinced that they'll iron out every asymmetrical weakness you may have.

Fair point, can't really argue with that.

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#16 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 04:10:58 pm
Should say as well, I don't believe this to be a strength issue but one of coordination.


Coordination = strength of engram?

Practise the movement and the engram strengthens/coordination improves.

JohnM

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#17 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 04:50:15 pm
FYI there is a systems board at the Wesyway.

Dave Flanagan

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#18 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 04:56:38 pm
I'm using strength in the sense of 'the ability to extert force', not as a synonym for magnitude.

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#19 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 05:47:20 pm
Whilst the Westway may have a "systems board", unless they've sorted it froma year ago it's useless as the holds are all either huge jugs or slopey monos. They actually made it a lot worse when they upgraded it.

r-man

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#20 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 08, 2013, 07:46:07 pm
I'm using strength in the sense of 'the ability to extert force', not as a synonym for magnitude.

I know, I was just observing that strength and coordination can be viewed in similar terms and trained in much the same way.

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#21 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 09, 2013, 12:22:53 pm
Sorry slightly OT but: does anyone know the brand of those wooden holds and balls at the Awesome wall?

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#23 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 11, 2013, 09:51:39 am
Are the holds produced specifically for this type of board? If so are they mirror images of each other or is each hold totally symmetrical?

Dave Flanagan

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#24 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 11, 2013, 09:58:20 am
I think they are these holds http://www.coreclimbing.co.uk/shop/climbing-holds/shop-by-range/core/core.html, so specifically for that purpose.

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#25 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 11, 2013, 12:47:41 pm
I have tried to set my board at home symmetrically. I have 20 holds with an exact  mirror image plus other that are fairly similar to its opposite number.
I have found that I can a right hand version of a problem as a warm up but can't even do the moves on the left hand version. However sometimes its the other way round, so even after using my board for a year.  I'm still no clearer to whether I have dominate side or not.

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#26 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 12, 2013, 03:08:51 pm
1. I would have thought most people are stronger one side rather than the other. No point in trying to redress that as long as its  within reasonable bounds, people are naturally right or left handed or footed and that's it - just look at football players.

2. Personally I have better lock off left but better grab ability right and accept that as part of my "game" just like a tennis player that has a better forehand than backhand.

3. Although WW does have a good systems wall it can't really be used for symmetrical problem setting in the way the wall in the photo can.

Dave Flanagan

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#27 Re: How relevant is symmetrical ability?
November 12, 2013, 03:14:56 pm
I think the subject would make a interesting study for a phD for something.

SA Chris

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Regards asymmetry, I've started doing some weight work, and noticed that with my left arm (i'm left handed) I can do approx 30% more exercises before failure than my right.

so should I

a) excerise both sides to failure
b) do the same amount on both sides (and eventually rederess the balance)
c) do more with the weaker arm (to immediately address the balance)?

Dave Flanagan

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The principle of working your weaknesses would suggest C.

kelvin

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If one of your balls hangs lower than the other, take it as a sign that you'll be braver that way.

If they've not dropped yet...

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The principle of working your weaknesses would suggest C.

Yeah, that's what I guessed at, was just seeing if there was agreement.

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I would do (a). I'd rather have a left arm that can do a 7a move and a right that can do a 6c than 2 arms that can do 6c moves. Also, I suspect training your strong arm wont significantly hinder your ability to train your weak arm (but train weaker arm first if doing them non-simultaneously) so I don't see the principle of working weaknesses being applicable here.

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I actually go for (b) but I've become obsessed with chasing symmetry and ironing out imbalances following a long period of dealing with shoulder injuries.  Two arms that can do 6c is better than one that can do 7a and one that can't pick up a phone.

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So 1 vote each for a, b and c :(

flyguy

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Deciding vote, do B

miso soup

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I was hoping someone would point out that Wall X had just installed an all-singing and dancing system board so I could have a play on it.

Vauxwall has a nice symmetrical training board with a load of Beastmaker holds on it.

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I think its pretty important. we have the potential to perform pretty much equally on left and right sides. if you're not doing so you're sort of wasting potential.

One thing i've noticed recently is not just in the hands but you can look at the foot rubber of your shoes -- at least with mine ive noticed the left shoe noticeably less worn than the right -- either not using or just pushing/pulling hard enough with the non-dominant foot.

Paul T

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Are the holds produced specifically for this type of board? If so are they mirror images of each other or is each hold totally symmetrical?
They are the Core range - we've a sym board in Bristol though it's a little more compact than the AW board.

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Paul what have you done to my eyes? Jesus! I hope it's toned down a little in the flesh? 8)

Paul T

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Paul what have you done to my eyes? Jesus! I hope it's toned down a little in the flesh? 8)

That's why we all wear sunglasses in Bristol - nothing to do with looking cool!

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One thing i've noticed recently is not just in the hands but you can look at the foot rubber of your shoes -- at least with mine ive noticed the left shoe noticeably less worn than the right -- either not using or just pushing/pulling hard enough with the non-dominant foot.

same for me, my left shoes always go through the rubber, think it could be more to do with one foot being very slightly bigger meaning more tension in the shoe and more rubber lost per scrape, or something like that. also you wont actually lose rubber if you re using your feet neatly, its only when the shoe slides off or slides along the wall trying to find a foothold, implying the one with the hole in is the useless foot...

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The rubber goes first on your strongest leg because you apply more pressure with it, surely?  All the above is true but I think that's the dominant factor, definitely is for me.  My rubber always goes on my right foot first, my right leg is way stronger than the left.  There's probably more of a difference than between my arms.  When I first tried one-legged squats I could knock out a few on my right leg immediately, it took ages to train my left to be able to do one.  This could be because before I climbed I skated and always pushed with my right leg, I suppose cyclists have probably got more balanced lower bodies.

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The rubber goes first on your strongest leg because you apply more pressure with it, surely?  All the above is true but I think that's the dominant factor, definitely is for me.  My rubber always goes on my right foot first, my right leg is way stronger than the left.

I certainly think so. stepping on sharp rock and pivoting on it wear out rubber, and doing so with more force would only wear it out quicker.

My legs are physically fairly balanced from weight lifting and cycling, which is why I find my left/right foot rubber imbalance interesting.

So I feel it's not just the physical strength of the leg/foot, but it seems to be about focus/awareness as well.

Oftentimes on overhanging terrain im using my feet enough to not fall off, but if i really focus on pulling/pushing with the feet, i can always take a bit more weight off.

With one side dominant, I'm probably subconsciously engaging my right foot more than my left unless I compensate for it by actively thinking about my left foot more.

 

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