[Dave Flanagan]

The wall recently added a symmetrical board and I had a quick play on it the other day, set a medium difficulty problem and then tried the mirror image. Found the mirror image significantly harder. In particular the moves going with my left hand. This isn't really a strength issue as I can deadhand and lock pretty much as well on each arm.

Is this a serious weakness in practise?

[highrepute]

not so much a weakness as an opportunity?

You've highlighted a weakness on one side that you weren't aware of. Clearly you are capable of correcting it because you know you can do it on the other side. get training and get balanced.

The risk is you ignore weakness and carry on getting strong, but preferentially on your strong side. but your weak side will always be holding you back. Get some balance and you will see more improvements.

[masonwoods101]

Good lookin piece of wall that...

[duncan]

I'd say it's worth working on. It's similar to the beasty boys assessing individual finger strength and grips and training the weakest ones. There is some evidence, though not consistent, that symmetry predicts performance and strength asymmetry predicts likelihood of getting injured in elite athletes.

You are lucky to have the facility which enables you to start to evaluate asymmetry. Although, since I presume you had a hand in building it, it might be more than just luck! If I were a coach, I would use a couple of system type boards at different angles to objectively assess a set of standard climbing moves bilaterally to pinpoint weaknesses. I'm not aware of anywhere in London that has such a set-up unfortunately. They all have campus boards of course but these should be just one of several devices to systematically train movement not the only one.

[Dave Flanagan]

The angle of the board on the left can be adjusted.

[Pebblespanker]

Dave is that at Awesome walls, doesn't look like Gravity??? Recent trips out resulted in failures on problems (Gully's probem etc.) that all seemed to need a strong LH and I am a natural righthander ... I was sure if I had used my RH I would have been OK  I'll be checking that board out next time I am over

[Dave Flanagan]

You are lucky to have the facility which enables you to start to evaluate asymmetry. Although, since I presume you had a hand in building it, it might be more than just luck! If I were a coach, I would use a couple of system type boards at different angles to objectively assess a set of standard climbing moves bilaterally to pinpoint weaknesses. I'm not aware of anywhere in London that has such a set-up unfortunately. They all have campus boards of course but these should be just one of several devices to systematically train movement not the only one.

No nothing to do with me. No system board (I know the board we are talking about isn't technically a system board) in the whole of London?

[Dave Flanagan]

Yes Awesome Walls training room. http://www.awesomewalls.ie/gallery/training-room

[Dave Flanagan]

I'd say it's worth working on. It's similar to the beasty boys assessing individual finger strength and grips and training the weakest ones. There is some evidence, though not consistent, that symmetry predicts performance and strength asymmetry predicts likelihood of getting injured in elite athletes.

But Vollyball is fundamentally symetric, ie you always do the same thing with the same hand, so I don't think it's that surprising that this has a part to play in injuries. Climbers should aspire to be asymmetric right? To what extent can technique and sequencing overcome the dominat hand problem.

Should say as well, I don't believe this to be a strength issue but one of coordination.

[Paul B]

I've never been wholly convinced by symmetrical boards.

They're great for identifying movement issues between sides but people who train on them a lot still have weaknesses that haven't been ironed out by symmetrical training which must run deeper (genetics? spending the past 20 odd years writing with one arm? etc.).

[Dave Flanagan]

I'm not sure that those weakness couldn't be improved quite quickly. About a year ago I got it into my head that I wanted to be able to juggle 4 balls which requires juggling two in each hand, initally I couldn't juggle 2 in my left hand to save my life, but after a decent bit of practise  I'm now pretty much as good on either side and the left side feels more natural and instinctive. Read into that what you will.

[duncan]

No nothing to do with me. No system board (I know the board we are talking about isn't technically a system board) in the whole of London?

Not that I am aware of. I was hoping someone would point out that Wall X had just installed an all-singing and dancing system board so I could have a play on it. But then there is very little variation in what most climbing walls provide.

But Vollyball is fundamentally symetric, ie you always do the same thing with the same hand, so I don't think it's that surprising that this has a part to play in injuries. Climbers should aspire to be asymmetric right? To what extent can technique and sequencing overcome the dominat hand problem.

I'm not sure I follow this. Do you mean that climbing movements are usually asymmetric? My point was there is equal likelihood of coming across a powerful left hand gaston move as a right hand one so it would seem sensible to assess and train to be equally strong on left and right gastons. I'm sure we all work around strength (or coordination or flexibility) asymmetries that most of us are unaware of. That doesn't mean that being aware of them isn't useful and something that might be worth addressing.

Should say as well, I don't believe this to be a strength issue but one of coordination.

I think you could assess both in this fashion. As I'm sure you know, there is an element of coordination in even the purest 'strength' test.

[Dave Flanagan]

I'm not sure I follow this. Do you mean that climbing movements are usually asymmetric? My point was there is equal likelihood of coming across a powerful left hand gaston move as a right hand one so it would seem sensible to assess and train to be equally strong on left and right gastons. I'm sure we all work around strength (or coordination or flexibility) asymmetries that most of us are unaware of. That doesn't mean that being aware of them isn't useful and something that might be worth addressing.

Sorry, I was unclear. I agree cimpletely with you. It would quite straightforward to assess finger strength and arm strength with some simple tests. If one's asymmetry was great than those test results suggest then it would be down to technique?

[Paul B]

I'm not sure that those weakness couldn't be improved quite quickly.

My point is that they haven't been, by people who use these setups fastidiously. I was suggesting this could be down (in some part) to underlying genetics etc.

For movement analysis and working on such things then yes but I remain to be convinced that they'll iron out every asymmetrical weakness you may have.

[erm, sam]

I agree crimpletely with you

That phrase deserves to exist. It will be particularly useful when discussing beta.

[Dave Flanagan]

My point is that they haven't been, by people who use these setups fastidiously. I was suggesting this could be down (in some part) to underlying genetics etc.
For movement analysis and working on such things then yes but I remain to be convinced that they'll iron out every asymmetrical weakness you may have.

Fair point, can't really argue with that.

[r-man]

Should say as well, I don't believe this to be a strength issue but one of coordination.

Coordination = strength of engram?

Practise the movement and the engram strengthens/coordination improves.

[JohnM]

FYI there is a systems board at the Wesyway.

[Dave Flanagan]

I'm using strength in the sense of 'the ability to extert force', not as a synonym for magnitude.

[AlistairB]

Whilst the Westway may have a "systems board", unless they've sorted it froma year ago it's useless as the holds are all either huge jugs or slopey monos. They actually made it a lot worse when they upgraded it.

[r-man]

I'm using strength in the sense of 'the ability to extert force', not as a synonym for magnitude.

I know, I was just observing that strength and coordination can be viewed in similar terms and trained in much the same way.

[Eliasn]

Sorry slightly OT but: does anyone know the brand of those wooden holds and balls at the Awesome wall?

[Dave Flanagan]

https://www.facebook.com/SavageIreland I think.

[SA Chris]

Are the holds produced specifically for this type of board? If so are they mirror images of each other or is each hold totally symmetrical?

[Dave Flanagan]

I think they are these holds http://www.coreclimbing.co.uk/shop/climbing-holds/shop-by-range/core/core.html, so specifically for that purpose.