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AnCap, AeroCap, etc. (Read 50174 times)

Nibile

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AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 28, 2013, 11:51:27 am
I tried to search a little bit over here but didn't quite get it. I get really confused by the terms AnCap, AnPow, AeroCap, AeroPow.
On the Net you find that they are energy chains and you also find how to train them for aerobic sports like running or cycling but I'd like some info that's climbing specific.
Let's see:
- AnPow. Anaerobic Power. Train single or few moves at max. No pump.
- AnCap. Anaerobic Capacity. Train sub-maximal efforts, repeated. Like 3 laps on a boulder problem with little or no rest in between. Good pump.
- AeroPow. Aerobic Power. Train easier, longer sequences, repeated, to get really pumped.
- AeroCap. Aerobic Capacity. Train on long long sequences, extreme pump. Or is the kind of training that you do for increase vascularity, climbing on really easy ground for tens of minutes?
Is the above right or wrong?

In the detail. I want to climb a route. The route is 20 moves long. I am training in various ways, including a couple of sessions of what I think is PE. AeroPow? AnPow?
I have an 11 moves problem on my board, and I do it 3 times in a row, with only the rest time needed to jump down, chalk up and start again.
I do five sets of this. I get horrendously pumped. The moves are not too hard but not too easy: I complete the 3 goes initially, then I start to fail on the 3rd, then on the 2nd but I finish the set.
 
What am I doing?
Am I wasting my time?
What should I do instead?

Nibile

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#1 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 28, 2013, 12:08:52 pm
Example here. Last set of the session.

ghisino

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#2 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 28, 2013, 02:48:24 pm
Hi nibs,

When do you want to be in good shape for the route?
How many good attemps/session and sessions/week would you like to have on it?
How do you currently feel on the route?
Is recovery between attempts a serious limiting factor?
Is there any non-physical quality that is limiting you on this route and you are willing to work on on a bit as well?

krymson

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#3 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 28, 2013, 05:59:42 pm
I thought I had it figured out but reading the Binney pdf cover to cover again i realized i knew fuck-all. Spent about an hour figuring out what he is really saying.

First of all his AnPower seems different from what most of would consider power. He actually defines it as "increase the percentage of anaerobic capacity you can sustain for your climb" so I think most of us would consider this a form of top-end Anaerobic Endurance.

If I'm reading it right, Nibile, your routine of doing the 11 move problem 3 times with small rests is almost his definition of AnCap but the rest interval is too short, pushing it towards his "AnPower". (Since his AnPower is still a kind of Anaerobic endurance that may not be a bad thing.)

By his definition, AnCap would be 10-15moves with a rest interval of 1 to 1.5 times the exercise time, so a rest of 60s would be about right.  You would do a few sets of these with substantial rest in between each set.

This is strictly going off the Binney PDF though. I'm sure other people will have their own ideas.

Quote
- AeroCap. Aerobic Capacity. Train on long long sequences, extreme pump. Or is the kind of training that you do for increase vascularity, climbing on really easy ground for tens of minutes?

With AeroCap I think it is the latter - vascularity/capillirization. Pump should be slight or very manageable and i believe it is about the time on the wall "tens of minutes" as much as it is the # of moves.

His AeroPow is really interesting but I haven't quite figured out what "increase the percentage of aerobic capacity you can sustain during a climb" means. (Increase the anaerobic threshold??)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 06:15:33 pm by krymson »

i_a_coops

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#4 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 28, 2013, 06:37:49 pm
Barrows will probably ritually flog me about for saying this, but I think most climbers would benefit more from just splitting training into levels based on number of moves (e.g. Anpow=> boulder problem length, Ancap=> 13-16 move circuits, Aeropow=> 30-40 move circuits, Aerocap: traversing on jugs for 15-20 minutes) and then actually going training instead of spending hours and hours poring over textbooks and journal articles about swimming training and trying to calculate what you're actually intending to train.

Again,for most people, if you want to climb a specific route X, it would probably work to try and recreate the style and length of the route but at a level that you can just about  lap, then do sets on it. Then make it progressively harder (smaller holds, bigger moves, shorter rests between reps) until you can crush. /ref{Malc on Hubble}.

People get into the geekery because they're very psyched, and they also get strong because they're very psyched, but Stevie Haston climbed a 9a by doing 1000 pullups every day and I'm sure that doesn't isolate any of the energy systems du jour.

(Nibile, I'm not saying you shouldn't get into the geekery, just that a lot of people get into the geekery who I don't think need to)

petejh

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#5 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 28, 2013, 06:59:44 pm
 That. :agree:

Quote
..the energy systems du jour..


I think as long as you understand the principles of training  (especially specificity), and lets face it it's not rocket science - more discipline, then it's not worth trying to make someone else's terminology fit if it doesn't seem intuitive very quickly.

abarro81

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#6 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 28, 2013, 07:33:42 pm
I agree with the thrust of your post about doing being the important part. Lots of people definitely get overly obsessed with tinkering.

I believe the Spanish break thing up as follows (with rough equivalent in brackets)
short boulder
long boulder
short resistance (~an pow)
long resistance (~aero pow)
continuity (Arc, aero cap)



krymson

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#7 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 28, 2013, 07:44:54 pm
Aeropow=> 30-40 move circuits,

I'm not sure "AeroPow" is what most people think it is either.  Binney talks about 10-20 move circuits at an intensity that is "the level of the climb you are trying to do" with short rests in between.

pretty unintuitive. On the other hand I'm curious about what it actually trains.

Sorry if I geeked up the thread but at the same time if you're using the guys terms, why not understand what he's really saying?

(just trying to justify an hour i will never get back  :'()

Nibile

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#8 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 29, 2013, 10:12:18 pm
Hi nibs,

When do you want to be in good shape for the route?
How many good attemps/session and sessions/week would you like to have on it?
How do you currently feel on the route?
Is recovery between attempts a serious limiting factor?
Is there any non-physical quality that is limiting you on this route and you are willing to work on on a bit as well?
Ciao beast.
I don't have any specific timetable at the moment, I'm trying to stay motivated waiting for a good opportunity!
I have tried the route once three years ago, with two goes on the first part, of about 8/9 moves. I still have to try all the hard bit.
So the plan is to hit the board for another four weeks - I just finished the first four weeks - and see how things go: if I do all the moves or not, and if I do, how and when I get pumped, and the likes.
Or I'll just go there and climb it.
I can't try it regularly because it's five hours away.

Fiend

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#9 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 29, 2013, 10:17:13 pm
- AnPow. Anaerobic Power. = malc's one armer
- AnCap. Anaerobic Capacity. = weak
- AeroPow. Aerobic Power. = weak
- AeroCap. Aerobic Capacity. = weak

HTH  :strongbench:

Nibile

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#10 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 29, 2013, 10:23:29 pm
I started the thread because I was very confused by the terms.
I feel that I'm training well for this thing, I improved from 8 to 11 moves problems to do the 3 laps. I was wondering if I should cut the rests to almost nothing, but the problems I use are a bit hard to repeat with absolute no rest. Plus, my holds are still rough and skin is a bit of an issue. I can't chose better holds because there aren't any.
I don't want to be geeky, but given the very limited amount of time, I want to train smartly. Since I always thought I was training smartly even when I was just doing dozens of pull ups on edges, I thought about asking for feedback.
I set a 30 moves problem yesterday to work as a test.
As soon as I'll try the route I'll be more precise.
I am very curious to know if I can at least do all the moves, that would be a great start.
Thanks for the replies, keep them coming.

Nibile

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#11 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 29, 2013, 10:24:17 pm
- AnPow. Anaerobic Power. = malc's one armer
- AnCap. Anaerobic Capacity. = weak
- AeroPow. Aerobic Power. = weak
- AeroCap. Aerobic Capacity. = weak

HTH  :strongbench:
;D

Tommy

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#12 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 29, 2013, 11:31:15 pm
Good words Ian and Alex. They both sum it up in different but applicable ways and Ian generalises well, despite his fear of a Barrows flogging.... which of course, we all fear!




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#13 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 29, 2013, 11:34:33 pm
i would quote some stuff from "the self-coached climber" as that book is rather good at energy systems for climbing, but i lent it out, and it has been years since i read it.


I feel that I'm training well for this thing, I improved from 8 to 11 moves problems to do the 3 laps. I was wondering if I should cut the rests to almost nothing




but just from experience, if you are doing 30 moves times 5,  for a 20 move route, that sounds alright. i wouldn't cut down on the rest in between sets, rather make the moves harder (if the route is harder) or do an extra lap (40 moves instead of 30) because lead-climbing always counts for extra moves



Rocksteady

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#14 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 30, 2013, 11:56:22 am
Barrows will probably ritually flog me about for saying this, but I think most climbers would benefit more from just splitting training into levels based on number of moves (e.g. Anpow=> boulder problem length, Ancap=> 13-16 move circuits, Aeropow=> 30-40 move circuits, Aerocap: traversing on jugs for 15-20 minutes) and then actually going training instead of spending hours and hours poring over textbooks and journal articles about swimming training

Yeah I agree with this. I think the other important thing from Binney is also how long each system actually takes to adapt to the training effectively.

As I recall:
Ancap: takes >8 weeks to actually be embedded. I think ancap training has the potential to produce muscle hypertrophy.
Aerocap: also takes >8 weeks to actually see physical adaptation.
Aeropow: 4-8 weeks to adapt to
Anpow: Also 4-8 weeks to adapt to

I think the latter two are generally what people think of as 'power endurance training' - i.e. circuits and boulder 4x4s and basically getting really pumped and not taking too much rest. 

The other thing that confused me in the past was thinking that this was a comprehensive list of things you need to train for climbing, but it's actually a list of endurance systems.

So doesn't cover real strength or power training at all.

Nibs, I think the key thing for you is to focus on the fact that your route is 20 moves long. So you need to be able to do 20 moves at the same intensity of those on your route and have a little bit spare for clipping etc. I'm no expert but I'd have thought training more than say 25-30 moves in a set is a waste as you won't get the intensity right. 
Depends if you want fitness just for this route or for routes more generally I guess.

Stu Littlefair

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#15 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 30, 2013, 12:58:43 pm
Nibs, I think the key thing for you is to focus on the fact that your route is 20 moves long. So you need to be able to do 20 moves at the same intensity of those on your route and have a little bit spare for clipping etc. I'm no expert but I'd have thought training more than say 25-30 moves in a set is a waste as you won't get the intensity right. 
Depends if you want fitness just for this route or for routes more generally I guess.

See - this is why I think sometimes the nerding is justified and the idea of specificity is over-rated. In a 20 move power endurance route you will also need aerobic fitness. A well-trained aerobic fitness system will mean much more recovery in the brief periods where you move your hands. This then puts less demand on the anaerobic systems etc.

Definitely anaerobic training will be the most important thing for your route, but neglecting the other aspects is a waste...

So Nibs - keep doing the longer stuff as well. It will pay off, even for short routes. 

jwi

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#16 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 30, 2013, 01:57:04 pm
Good point. Just goes to show that it is impossible to load the various energy systems in the muscle independently.

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#17 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 30, 2013, 02:09:05 pm
Something Steph Davies makes at the end of this article on training Endurance in saying to work on power too as they complement each other.

Nibile

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#18 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 30, 2013, 03:24:24 pm
In the first 3 weeks I've done at least four sessions a week, like this:
First session, max hangs.
Second, max system (pinches, jumps, etc).
Third, max bouldering.
Fourth, PE.
Fifth, PE.
In the fourth week I only did three sessions:
First, PE (very strong).
Second, PE (strong but more pumped, less volume).
Third, endurance (20+ easier moves, super pumped).
 
I wonder how any of you could think that I was neglecting power...  ;)
At the moment I can't be more precise, because I only tried the first half of the route. So I still don't know whether I can do the moves in isolation or not. I bet I can...  ;D
The idea is: do the moves first, link them second, that's why three sessions are for power.


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#19 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 30, 2013, 04:11:48 pm
is there a UKB rule that says "though shall not ask which project"?
 :read:

otherwise someone would have asked, right?

Nibile

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#20 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 30, 2013, 05:24:02 pm
 :offtopic:
is there a UKB rule that says "though shall not ask which project"?
 :read:

otherwise someone would have asked, right?
It's an unwritten rule!
 ;)

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#21 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
September 30, 2013, 05:31:50 pm
 

It's an unwritten rule!
 ;)

often the most important ones

ghisino

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#22 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
October 01, 2013, 12:18:48 pm
I can't try it regularly because it's five hours away.

 :)

this also means that the ability of recovering well between attempts and between days is not to be underestimated.

The french competitor way to train this would be to kill yourself with a big volume of everything* in an early cycle,  then switch to a volume intensive yet varied climbing phase (managing to fit in 2-3  brief morning strenght sessions/week, steadily increasing amounts of specific endurance, steadily decreasing low intensity volume, tech drills such as speedclimbing warmups), then a final phase of specific work at the hardest possible intensity.
Notice that the switches between "phases" happen gradually over 2-3 weeks - you can also think of the central phase as a very long switch between general and specific work if you like.

anyway the problem for humans having day jobs and a life is that the first two phases are quite time consuming...

you can still pick some of the original idea and if you can afford it, put in a couple of extra sessions per week of "something else than circuits and repeated boulders" just for 1 or 2 cycles (not the very last before a possible trip date of course)

also, having limited time to work the route means that you don't have a lot of time to find out the best beta/timing/flow, you need to work out something that's 95% good quickly and then give it 105%...
A good idea of related "extra session" would be to focus on flashing/climbing in limited tries unknown boulders/traverses/short routes.
Of course you need to find out a training partner who can set problems and eliminates for you or/and regularly visit venues other than your board.
If it gets friendly competitive (enough to make you feel an enjoyable pressure, as when playing the last balls of a tight calcio balilla match) even better.


i'm sorry none of what i wrote is directly related to training nomenclature as it is the reflection of another training school... hopefully you can pick up the best ideas of both though! :)


*in the french coach's dreams, that means 30% low intensity/hi volume climbing, 30% specific strenght (hard bouldering, hangboard, campus), 30% general activities (weights, circuit training, cardio, silly games, etc). They almost don't do specific endurance work here. I think they are not too strict about the content of this phase as long as the athlete is happy to do a shitload of work though...


ps
hang a couple of draws to your board, tie some rope around your waist and clip them every x moves-unless you've been doing tons of roped climbing lately.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:30:29 pm by ghisino »

Nibile

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#23 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
October 01, 2013, 02:27:12 pm
 :bow:
Cheers beast.

Nibile

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#24 Re: AnCap, AeroCap, etc.
October 13, 2013, 01:39:20 pm
So I set a 30 moves circuit on my board to be used as a test.
The training is definitely paying dividends, and I am currently able to put 21/22 moves in a row!!! I completed the whole circuit in two halves.
The first ten moves are easy, the second ten are a bit harder on their own, and the last ten moves are definitely harder on their own.
So I'm trying to put together increased pump with increasingly harder moves.
Still have to practice clipping, though. 
It's fun and a new challenge for me.
A good lap - for me - in this video:

As usual, suggestions are welcome.

 

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