[crimp]

Surely the real issue here is that Adge doesn't know where the Sheaf View is. Jesus fucking wept 

yes. I've just come round from a post scrumpy jack nap, i have just tried to keep up with this debate on other channel, and frankly it bored the arse off me.

The real issue is where's this sheaf pub, and where's my pint?

[petejh]

This is a direct question to Alan James.

Alan - you state on your company's website that you have made contributions to the north wales bolt fund:

* by - Alan James - UKC and UKH ? on - 08 Jun 2013 - www.ukclimbing.com
In reply to In reply to Dan, Jon and a few others:

When the 1997 NWL RF sold out in 2008 I didn't know quite what to do since we were fully committed doing other books and I couldn't possibly re-author a new book. Wales local at the time Jack G had only just come on board at UKC but not as an RF author and he was too busy anyway. So I offered the full document, albeit in a rather dated format, to Simon Panton since I thought Ground-Up would be the logical people to do the new guide. Simon told me then that Ground-up would be producing a North Wales Limestone guide in 2009 and he said he would think about the offer of the files.

In the end I didn't hear back from Simon and it appears that their proposed guide dropped off their schedule. With Jack living there though and keen to get involved we started putting together a fully definitive guide in 2010 (I can't remember when exactly). Jack did loads of work on Upper Pen Trwyn, LPT, and the Diamond.

Then in November 2010 Pete Harrison announced a new definitive local guide to NWL produced by an independent publisher (himself I think) but with links to Ground-up.
Announcement here - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=433625
and Grubes corroborates some of this here http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=438644#x6176646

We thought about the prospect of 2 definitive guides since we could have easily produced our guidebook and, at that time, Petejh seemed perfectly happy to pitch his book against a fully definitive rival. I am not sure which book would have appeared first but I suspect ours would since the other one still isn't available and ours would have been there in 2011. Whether Petejh would have then gone on to produce his or not, I don't know but his rhetoric at the time suggested he would.

So we took the decision to drop that book - http://www.rockfax.com/news/2011/01/31/change-of-plans-for-north-wales-limestone/ . This was based on pure economics, we didn't think it was worthwhile producing a second book to an area that was a low-selling area that appeared to be getting a definitive guide anyway in the near future.

Then in June 2011 we announced the full North Wales Climbs guide - http://www.rockfax.com/news/2011/06/06/north-wales-climbs/
and here http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=462111
which we hoped to get out in 2012. This was a logcial step considering North Wales Classics had sold well but suffered from its small format, and that we already had the Ormes to add to the full book.

Well things got delayed, as they do in guidebooks, so here we are in 2013 planning on getting the book out. We haven't increased our coverage of NWL in fact we have reduced it by around 80% from the template document that Jack had started work on. We are including most sport routes on the crags we cover though since that is our normal policy since these are the routes that tend to get climbed, which is around 250 odd routes on the Great Orme for example.

Apart from the delay and what is documented above, nothing has changed in our plans for NWClimbs since we announced it back in 2011. We haven't been keeping quiet and we have mentioned it several times since, then we waited until we can be sure of the publication date before the final announcement. This is standard procedure which we use with every guidebook. If we forecast them too much in advance then we end up with the inevitable delayed publication dates.

With regard to donations to bolt funds
We gave money in the past to the North Wales Bolt Fund and we are happy to do so again in the future and will do after we have broken even from this new book which may take a year or so. We have also set up http://www.ukboltfund.org which has been extremely successful in many areas. I have checked yesterday and since it was set up, there have been 86 attempted donations made to the NWBF via that page. That is likely to be around £400 to £500 (I can't check the actual amounts) if everyone gave a fiver. We will push this initiative in the new book as well and continue to promote it across UKC and Rockfax sites.

We have also recently added a point-of-sale donation system onto the Rockfax site which has started to pick up donations from people who buy books direct. They can choose the local bolt fund or the ACT when they buy but so far most have been choosing the ACT. Hopefully this will gather momentum as we move on and I will certainly include the NWBF in the list.
Alan

Is there anything more you'd like to say about that?

I sat down with the person who administrates the North Wales Bolt Fund tonight - there are lots of donations of fivers and tenners from local climbers going back through the years - thanks Tommy, Keith (ksjs), BenF, Pete, Rob, and many, many other climbers. Contributors to the fund are recorded in the accounts.

But there aren't any records of any contributions from Alan James, UKC or Rockfax to the north wales bolt fund in the last 20 years.

Can you clarify that for me Alan, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant when you told the customers on your website that your company has made donations to the north wales bolt fund.

I would have imagined a company with the turnover suggested in it's accounts - which Jasper can explain far better than I - would be able to stretch to a fiver like the many climbers in the UK have done who don't have figures like £200000 on their annual accounts.

Perhaps someone on the other channel could ask him again for an honest answer.

You're not Rich Simpson in disguise are you?

[petejh]

* by - andyathome ? on - 20:59 Thu
In reply to andyathome:

AND.... while I'm on roll; where is the breakdown of the financial model of the putative North Wales Limestone? 'All profits will go the the bolt fund?' That will be the bolt fund that is funding the development/re-bolting activities of the guidebook writer? Nothing personal in this you understand.

Is that AFTER all origination/production costs are met? Or is there a certain amount going to the fund per copy sold from day 1? Will the accounts be published on UKC (seems to be the growing thing) in terms of cost of production and income generated? Who oversees the accounts?

According to this thread all these things should be in the public (i.e UKC) domain.

Hi Andy. The 'business model' is this:

* by - biscuit ? on - 21:04 Thu
In reply to andyathome:
I think it would be reasonable to see that Pete gets his money back on publication first and then all the profits go to the bolting etc.

And that's it. I am not making a penny from this guide. Neither is Andy Boorman my co-author. Once printing costs and paying photographers is done, all money will be directed somewhere else, not to me or Andy. I'm lucky that I don't need to make a living from climbing, I have a well-paying job.  I'm doing this because I want to, god knows I wonder why sometimes, I'll probably never touch a guidebook after this is printed and I just want to go and lie on a beach by myself for a week when it's finished. Please ask away with anything you want to related to the book - I've really got nothing to hide.

*Edit - Andy - you're welcome to view the bank statements, please do, remind me after it goes to print and I'll gladly let you see what goes where.
*Edit - I had thought I'd pay off the production costs first. Then all money to the bolt fund. I dunno though, it's not like it's written down in any plan anywhere - it's in my head.

 If it seems a bit weird that I'd give up 3 years of my life to do this than, yeah, I'd agree I guess it is weird. As weird as any hard project that seems like a great idea at the time and which sucks you in and makes you want to create something of value. That's the same reason I re-equip - I actually love the feeling of making a completely unknown but obviously brilliant route climbable again - it's almost like a short-cut to the feeling you get when you do a good new route. Because if you already know it's a supposedly awesome route but which hasn't been climbed for ever because of rubbish dangerous bolts - well, you know it's very likely to have satisfying outcome after you've finished re-bolting. You don't get that with new routing, sometimes they're a bit rubbish but you don't always know until the end. I prefer to do new routes, it's hard to find the open space in the UK to do that but the Ormes still has some good territory to explore. The best explanation I've ever heard for the joy gotten from the creative process of new-routing is by Randy Leavitt in his brilliant interview here about developing Clark Mountain: http://enormocast.com/episode-18-randy-leavitt-slackers-need-not-apply/

[ianto9]

how long have i got to get my proj done before you go to print

[petejh]

  me me me.

It won't be out until 2016 at this rate. (joke).



Autumn?

[petejh]

* by - Misha ? on - 21:28 Thu
....
I have some sympathy for the volunteer guide book team but at the end of the day no one is forcing them to bolt and rebolt NWL sport routes. Yes, they put in time and effort and that's great but it's their choice to go and do that. If the bolt fund runs out of money, they can just stop bolting. It's not like it's their livelihoods are at stake here. Do we really need hundreds of NWL sport routes? Perhaps the locals need that but then it's up to them to finance that. I bet the vast majority of people who go climbing in North Wales hardly ever venture out on NWL, if ever at all. This is a storm in a teacup really apart from a few locals who have a direct interest in developing loads of NWL sport routes and a few others who have jumped on the anti-Rockfax wagon.

Misha - I was out on the ab rope re-equipping in a steep little zawn yesterday evening. It's got 3 brilliant 35m long 6c-7a+'s which have hardly had an ascent in 25 years because the fixed gear is totally knackered. They are no longer recorded in any in-print guide. By the sounds of it you love trad climbing. You'd love these - no convenience roadside clip -ups, hanging belay just above the sea and 35m of steep well-featured solid limestone. How is that not a pretty cool thing? They'll just sink back under the radar to be forgotten by everyone and never climbed if we hadn't gone in last night started re-equipping them, I'm not asking for thanks, I'm saying there's loads of amazing, atmospheric adventurous climbing on the Ormes that is worth sorting out and whic hmakes the area pretty special - not just sport, we're cleaning up loads of good trad routes and replacing shitty pegs/ abseil points. Half the trouble in this debate is most people don't even know what climbing exists on The Ormes outside LPT and Pen Trwyn, maybe the odd person's been to the Gwynt or Gritstone Gorilla. There's so much amazing adventurous stuff and it seems like a pretty cool thing to me to make it climbable again.

[SteG]

I thought it might be worth adding some clarity on the electronic side of things too.

As this is a bolt-fund guide the percentage take by theSend is zero.

I'm providing the guidebook build tools, database, marketing and support on theSend website and associated tech at no cost to Pete. In the last 24 hours it seems I also have some domains and webhosting to look after, which will also be provided free of charge.

When the app is ready for publication I'll do all the necessary prep work to get it into the App Stores that we've agreed and continue to update it as new functionality or updated information comes along.

For full transparency, once the app sales are up and running I'll be publishing contribution figures on my website so that they are in the public domain. 


(waffly pedantry alert for our poster who raised the original question)
In terms of the wording, 'profits go to the bolt fund' in this case has to be very specific to comply with the app stores contractual terms. Since they (all of them: Google, Apple, Microsoft et al) take a percentage, you cannot say 'proceeds' or 'sales' as this would imply that you are also giving away their percentage.  For an App selling at a particular cost, the store will deduct sales tax for HMRC, then take their commission and pass on the rest to the publisher (me in this case). I take the money I receive from the store and transfer it all into the bolt fund bank account with a sales record and transfer notice.

So in this case 'profit' = Retail Price, less sales tax, less store commission and no other deductions.

This is my contribution to the bolt fund effort.

[kelvin]

That seems as transparent enough - I climb with a taxman and I'm sure he'd like everyone to be so clear when it comes to money matters.

[Grubes]

http://northwaleslimestone.com

Great website plus it reminded me to donate to the bolt fund

[petejh]

There are a few posts on the other channel from people talking about 'new routing' and 'supporting the new route developers'.

Just wanted to try to make something bit clearer  - the issue to do with supporting the bolt fund and having a definitive guide is really 99% about supporting re-equipping of the huge number of neglected routes and crags on North Wales Limestone; not new routing. The reasons that there exists so much under-the-radar neglected climbing in this area are explained on the new guidebook website here:http://northwaleslimestone.com/

New routers have always paid for their own bolts, the bolt fund provides them at cost if people ask but they still have to be bought.  Just wanted to point that out.

[masonwoods101]

Loving the community pulling together here to support the cause... Unfortunately computers and stuff ain't my strong point but I will be buying the guide to show support... Never really known anything about the ethics if guidebook writing (ie locals produced guides vs rockfax) but I have found this thread enlightening...

[Jaspersharpe]

I would have imagined a company with the turnover suggested in it's accounts - which Jasper can explain far better than I - would be able to stretch to a fiver like the many climbers in the UK have done who don't have figures like £200000 on their annual accounts.

Just to be clear again, there can be no assumptions made about the turnover of the company from the information available.

My comments here and on the dark side were only about the health of the balance sheet and the incorrect, misleading statements made by that guy on there.

Having said that, I would have thought he could stretch to a fiver though yeah. 

[Nick S]

New routers have always paid for their own bolts, the bolt fund provides them at cost if people ask but they still have to be bought.  Just wanted to point that out.

FYI the blurb on ukboltfund.org for the NWL bolt fund says:

'The North Wales Bolt Fund was established in 2008. Money is used for re-equipping and subsidising new routing. Assisting primarily in North West Wales Areas but also Clywd, Llanymynedd and Mid-Wales.'

Just want to make sure they have their facts straight.

[Jaspersharpe]

I predict that thread is now going to descent into a grabbo/dolerite style wankathon but for accountants     

Doing my best.

I can't believe that guy thinks you're being rude - you're putting across well-reasoned factual points in a clear manner, and which are highly relevant to some of Alan's arguments about not making any/enough profit, and which help illuminate whether what he's claiming is likely to be or not to be the truth.

One thing that will never, ever change on that forum is that there will always be someone willing to argue that black is white (and nobody gets my jokes).

[metal arms]

One thing that will never, ever change on that forum is that there will always be someone willing to argue that black is white (and nobody gets my jokes).

I got it.  Didn't know you needed congratulating on it though.  Well done for making a joke at Chris Craggs.  It was very funny indeed. 

[ianv]

Jasper

I have not seen the balance sheet so need some enlightenment.

Is there goodwill and a value for the website shown on the current balance sheet? or just the cash and stock? Is there any assets on the B/S that might be attributable to the acquisition of Rockfax Ltd?

[Snoops]

One thing that will never, ever change on that forum is that there will always be someone willing to argue that black is white.

True dat

[Jaspersharpe]

One thing that will never, ever change on that forum is that there will always be someone willing to argue that black is white (and nobody gets my jokes).

I got it.  Didn't know you needed congratulating on it though.  Well done for making a joke at Chris Craggs.  It was very funny indeed. 

Fuck off I meant that numpty on the other side who thought I was actually agreeing with Craggs! I know you know this already......... 

[Jaspersharpe]

Jasper

I have not seen the balance sheet so need some enlightenment.

Is there goodwill and a value for the website shown on the current balance sheet? or just the cash and stock? Is there any assets on the B/S that might be attributable to the acquisition of Rockfax Ltd?

The balance sheet looks very healthy and although the paper Net Asset value of the company is £215,104 at 31/12/11 this doesn't include any value for goodwill or the value of the website.

No the investment in Rockfax Ltd (as a wholly owned subsidiary) is shown as £3 (presumably just the share capital) and it's not trading.

[SA Chris]

Aside from the goodwill, do you need to account for value of the bitter vitriol, unpleasant comments and a general air of malice?

[metal arms]

http://northwaleslimestone.com

Great website plus it reminded me to donate to the bolt fund

Me too.  Bunged a few quid there as I have definitely benefited from Pete (& others) work on The Orme.  Thanks Pete.

[Livingstone]

Just sent a strongly-worded letter to Alan James (how very British!). I'm sure he'll add it to the ever-growing pile!
Can't seem to attach it to this post though.

Great to see everyone getting involved. Seems like he's totally in a losing battle over on UKC! Keep up the good work Pete.

[slackline]

I couldn't see any figures on Companies House top search result searching for "UK Climbing Ltd" or their ID of "04297002" 

(Also UKC Limited (Dissolved 2009) and Rockfax Limited (Dissolved) seems awkward to find URLs linking directly to each page, so these are all search results, top hits are the ones to look at).

More info can be obtained for a fee by the looks of it.

[Jaspersharpe]

Companies House Direct has all the filings of every registered company in the UK. You need to set up an account and yes there's a fee for downloading stuff.

[slackline]

Ah, ok, I thought I'd read further back that this was all publicly available online and assumed that meant it was therefore free to access.