[masonwoods101]

Ok man cheers... A foot seems sensible.

[krymson]

one benefit of this type of training vs regular endurance training on a route is that you control exactly the type of grip you are training. with 4x4s, "doubles" or circuits you dont have as much choice.

One con is that with the fingerboard version you arent doing big movements so while i found i got pumped much later, it didnt help me make big moves while pumped because my body wasn't quite used to that, so circuits/laps/4x4's can still be useful in that regard.

[Luke Owens]

After mentioning the "powered out" feeling on my other thread "To Redpoint or Not to Redpoint" It's got me thinking about how many moves I'm actually doing on my project(s).

Instead of getting on my F7b+ project the last couple of weeks I've opted to get to different crags and get some quick ticks. Subsequently getting no ticks but failing so close to finishing the lines.

Last week I failed on the last move of a steep F7a+ and yesterday evening powered out AFTER the crux on a very short lived F7b. The length of both of these climbs and such my project above consist of about 10 - 20 moves in total, not many when you think about it!

The feet on campusing I've been doing has been:

3/5 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)

This is about ~50-60 moves per set and it would seem relates in no way to the actual routes I'm trying to get up...

I want my training to help me get up what I want to climb so is the above feet-on workout actually helping me get up these climbs or should I switch to something more intense like 30 secs - 1 minute of harder moves per set?

...or would it be more beneficial to do repeaters/deadhangs instead as all of the routes I'm doing/want to do are like bouldering on a rope anyway?

[Sasquatch]

Think less about the # of moves, and more about the length of time it takes you to climb it.  I can assure you that doing 60 moves in 10 minutes is a very different workout than doing 60 moves in 2 minutes.  That said, when it gets down into the "powering out" stage, I've always been of the inclination to stronger.  Hence, my recommendation is to do deadhangs/repeaters. 

[LB]

I don't know much about this kind of thing so hopefully someone can come back on it.

I think it was agreed these are basically Anaerobic Capacity workouts, in which case this is somethign you want to be doing for shorter routes in the manner you have (with Sasquatch's shorter suggested intervals), and somethign from which you have noticed benefits

However, you're saying you need more power endurance, specific to the type of routes you are doing, which are short and intense. So this would suggest Anaerobic Power workouts. Less moves, Less rest. Something like 4 x (4 x 10M // 20secs Rest), which might be a longer version of such things. Given you are describing routes between 10 and 20 moves this sounds very applicable.

[Sasquatch]

Quite funny you just resurrected this.  I have a trip for three weeks in October(combo work, family, and climbing), so I'm not doing anything too crazy before then, but I've been looking at ways to incorporate this into my training.  Right now I'm looking at doing 2 days a week of foot on campusing.  Day one will be classic 2min PE, but the other will be a new concept I had.  It's doing a shorter set but with bigger/harder moves.  So what I'm looking at is going to be something along the lines of:
 5 sets of:
45 seconds x 1-5-9, down 7-5-3-1, repeat - feet on as much as possible, but if they have to cut to jump to 9, then so be it. 
3min rest.

What I'm looking for is the repetition of hard whole body movement.  i feel like regular foot on campusing tends to be so tick-tacky that it doesn't do this.  I'm envisioning this in place of repeater type work. 

Has anyone done something like this?

[bendavison]

Climbing?


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[rodma]

Quite funny you just resurrected this.  I have a trip for three weeks in October(combo work, family, and climbing), so I'm not doing anything too crazy before then, but I've been looking at ways to incorporate this into my training.  Right now I'm looking at doing 2 days a week of foot on campusing.  Day one will be classic 2min PE, but the other will be a new concept I had.  It's doing a shorter set but with bigger/harder moves.  So what I'm looking at is going to be something along the lines of:
 5 sets of:
45 seconds x 1-5-9, down 7-5-3-1, repeat - feet on as much as possible, but if they have to cut to jump to 9, then so be it. 
3min rest.

What I'm looking for is the repetition of hard whole body movement.  i feel like regular foot on campusing tends to be so tick-tacky that it doesn't do this.  I'm envisioning this in place of repeater type work. 

Has anyone done something like this?

Yes, I do stuff like this, both as part of my warm up for campusing and to enable bigger moves, practice intervals on different grip types etc.

[Sasquatch]

Climbing?


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Yeah.  But my wall has limits in terms of this type of training

[bendavison]

Fair enough. I didn't mean to sound like I was having a dig btw!

A potentially more useful reply to your post: have you tried doing campus circuits? Definitely good for getting powered out, but might be too intense if you're going for 45 seconds. In the past I've tried 1-3-5-7-9, drop, repeat, drop, repeat. Rest. Repeat x5 or so.

I only dropped to preserve my elbows. I think ideally it'd just be up, down, up.


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[Luke Owens]

Question specifically for Luke: how have you evolved these kind of work-outs since you last posted in this thread?

Shortly after I posted on this thread years ago I climbed my hardest route to date in a short PE style. I then stopped doing any foot-on campus style stuff and never climbed that hard again all of 2014 but got better at onsighting and switched to doing longer routes and aerocap became more of a priority. Short PE routes have never really been as much of a weakness to me than pumpy sustained routes.

This year I've just climbed loads and manged to do a new PE style route at my limit from just trying it a lot. Back when I was posting on this thread the foot on campus stuff definitely helped to give me the spike in PE that I needed to complete the route.

I found doing 2 mins on 2 mins off until I couldn't carry on for being to powered out helped a lot too.

[Sasquatch]

Fair enough. I didn't mean to sound like I was having a dig btw!

A potentially more useful reply to your post: have you tried doing campus circuits? Definitely good for getting powered out, but might be too intense if you're going for 45 seconds. In the past I've tried 1-3-5-7-9, drop, repeat, drop, repeat. Rest. Repeat x5 or so.

I only dropped to preserve my elbows. I think ideally it'd just be up, down, up.

No worries, I didn't take it as such.  I haven't, but I really want to add in bigger moves than what I can do traditionally campusing.  I find myself getting seriously pumped when I have to make longer moves and my hands are far apart.  I think doing more really long pulls in training might help with this type of powering out.  For example, I can run 5-7 laps on a 5.12 with smaller holds and smaller moves on a 20-30 degree wall and feel pretty steady, but I'll get pumped out on a 5.11 with big moves between better holds on the same angle. 

Quite funny you just resurrected this.  I have a trip for three weeks in October(combo work, family, and climbing), so I'm not doing anything too crazy before then, but I've been looking at ways to incorporate this into my training.  Right now I'm looking at doing 2 days a week of foot on campusing.  Day one will be classic 2min PE, but the other will be a new concept I had.  It's doing a shorter set but with bigger/harder moves.  So what I'm looking at is going to be something along the lines of:
 5 sets of:
45 seconds x 1-5-9, down 7-5-3-1, repeat - feet on as much as possible, but if they have to cut to jump to 9, then so be it. 
3min rest.

What I'm looking for is the repetition of hard whole body movement.  i feel like regular foot on campusing tends to be so tick-tacky that it doesn't do this.  I'm envisioning this in place of repeater type work. 

Has anyone done something like this?

Yes, I do stuff like this, both as part of my warm up for campusing and to enable bigger moves, practice intervals on different grip types etc.

So you find it useful?  I'm looking at adding in 1 day a wek of this. 

[rodma]

Yup, I use it as part of each session. I fond doing 1-5 and 1-6 useful prior to attempting 1-6 footless.
I also generally warm up doing 1-3-5, 1-4-6, etc with feet on (by stepping up prior to second move),   feet cut at 1-4-7, then I start at 1-3-5 again but footless.

[Sasquatch]

Thanks!

[rodma]

Nae bother.

It's really easy to make it as powerful as you want by allowing it down, staying square on, adding weight, or whatever works for you.

A campus board is pretty versatile (this is what you discover when your only board is a campus board )

[Luke Owens]

A bit long winded this but I'm just a bit curious...

After speaking to a mate at the crag on the weekend it got me thinking about my training and the training I did In the past.

I'm currently trying a short PE route at my limit that I've been trying on and off for a couple of years, usual story with me powering out on it.

My mate suggested I do some Foot-on Campusing - 4 x 1:30min-2min on, rest double the work time between reps, aiming to fail on the 4th rep. Reduce rest once I can complete 4 sets.

I remembered I used to do something similar to this in 2013 (as detailed in this thread) when I had my best year redpointing I did about 8 7b's some in a session and did my hardest route at 7b+.

In 2014 I switched to doing longer less cruxy, less PE based routes and went from onsighting about 6c to 7a+. No improvement in redpointing that year and did one longer 7b.

2015 was more of the same with longer routes and mileage and the odd redpoint of longer routes. No improvement in grade. I had a brief go on my current project that year but didn't get anywhere on it.

In 2013 I bouldered about Font 6C these days I boulder about Font 7A+.

I think I was under some misconception in the last couple of years that I needed to be "Fitter" or with a better Aerobic base and these short routes would be easier, also thought they would become easier now I boulder harder when the truth is the moves feel easier but I can actually link less moves these days than I used to. Plenty of people have said I just need to improve my AeroCap but I've done a lot of that in past couple of years laps at the wall, mileage outside etc and it's only served me better on longer routes.

So to get to the point am I just lacking PE massively and was the foot-on stuff giving me the benefit back in 2013? Back then I couldn't do long pumpier routes at all but now I can, but I seem to have lost all ability to do short sustained hard bits of climbing.

I used to do about 7 x 2mins on 2mins off in 2013 when I tried the same thing last night I managed 5 x 1:30min on 3mins off and failed 1:20min into the 5th rep, so something has changed...

PE style routes are what I'll be focusing on this year so if It's just a load of foot-on campusing that is required I'd be psyched.

On a side note i'm completely lost with the whole AnCap, AeroPow stuff, I've tried to relate it to my own climbing/training and the more I read about it the more confused I get.

One other thing I noticed is if I boulder I can pretty much boulder at my max after consecutive days on and have decent goes on problems all day as long as I rest in-between well if they're say 6 moves or less. If I go out for a day on routes or anything over 6 moves I get a good couple of goes then it all goes downhill even if I’ve rested a couple of days before.

I recently did left wall in the cave and that's pretty long but I'm pretty sure I did it in the end because I tried it so many times the moves became easier and not because my PE improved massively?

So does it look like I have a missing PE link? Would be nice to get out of a 3 year plateau on routes...

[Fultonius]

What has your training consisted of this winter?

It does sound like your PE is lacking. Do you ever do circuits at the wall? I'm currently doing 30 move circuits at the top end of my O/S ability (and just above) with short rests after a winter of mainly bouldering and my route fitness is rapidly improving. I'm at a similar bouldering level to you and a month ago I was finding long F7a's a fight to onsight.  Now I'm working a F7c project (22 moves to a poor rest, then 12 more moves to the top) and on Monday got back on a (very soft) F8a that I did a few years ago. Managed it with 1 rest so I'm not far off that level (note it took a total siege last time).

I've not done any foot-on campussing, just boulder 4 x 4s, 30 move hard circuits with short rests. I did do a fair bit of 15-18 move long boulder/short circuit sessions in the winter though, but mainly just bouldering and aerocap (20 mins at start of session).

p.s. hopefully one of the resident training experts will give some better advice....

[Muenchener]

I am curious as to what extent subtle improvements in resting technique and mental "toughness" derived from this kind of training actually deliver the results rather than genuine physiological adaption?

I suspect to rather a large extent if you're talking about short term gains over a couple of weeks. Learning not to overgrip, learning that the first hint of a pump isn't Game Over, etc.

[Luke Owens]

What has your training consisted of this winter?

It does sound like your PE is lacking. Do you ever do circuits at the wall? I'm currently doing 30 move circuits at the top end of my O/S ability (and just above) with short rests after a winter of mainly bouldering and my route fitness is rapidly improving. I'm at a similar bouldering level to you and a month ago I was finding long F7a's a fight to onsight.  Now I'm working a F7c project (22 moves to a poor rest, then 12 more moves to the top) and on Monday got back on a (very soft) F8a that I did a few years ago. Managed it with 1 rest so I'm not far off that level (note it took a total siege last time).

I've not done any foot-on campussing, just boulder 4 x 4s, 30 move hard circuits with short rests. I did do a fair bit of 15-18 move long boulder/short circuit sessions in the winter though, but mainly just bouldering and aerocap (20 mins at start of session).

p.s. hopefully one of the resident training experts will give some better advice....

Been mainly climbing on a board and doing 20 minute Low Intensity AeroCap and also 2 x 5min on 5min off AeroCap. Also I had loads of sessions trying Left Wall Traverse in Parisella's for most of the winter.

Did do a few weeks of 8 x 15 move AnCap circuits but nothing else route related. Never done any circuits of more moves. I have a really good 20 degree long board at my wall so would be useful for circuits.

I'm in a similar redpoint scenario as you as I'm trying a F7c with ~20 moves to a rest then ~10 moves to finish.

I've started the Foot-On Campus workouts again this week so it'll be interesting to see any improvement in PE.

[Fultonius]

Luke, apologies if this is pointing out the blindingly-obvious but: have you considered designing an endurance training plan that mimics your 7c project, in terms of intensity, duration and quality of rests? How good is the rest on your 7c?

This ^^

One of my circuits is just about right - poor rest about 25 moves in. Yesterday I started trying to shake out at the end of the lap and then do a bouldery finisher as well.

There's a new rung ladder on the 45 at TCA Glasgow which people use for basic laddering (similar to foot on campussing) - I did a lap yesterday but I felt it didn't get me as pumped as circuits. I just couldn't hang on anymore - I guess more powered out?

[Luke Owens]

Luke, apologies if this is pointing out the blindingly-obvious but: have you considered designing an endurance training plan that mimics your 7c project, in terms of intensity, duration and quality of rests? How good is the rest on your 7c?

Haha, yeah that's blindingly obvious. I wouldn't know how best to set it though, harder or easier than the real thing? Easier and and do laps? Harder and try and redpoint it?

I never feel like I improve as much as I could If I just keep trying to plug away at something as opposed to doing something more structured.

I guess I'm looking for the best training in what I need to get up it.

I thought I'd be on form for to do it after doing Left Wall recently as that's 15 or so hard PE style moves to a very good rest then 8 moves to finish. But as I said before I think I just tried it that much the moves became easier.

[nai]

Just checked my training diary and it seems when I did Ring of Fire, a 30 odd move PE test, my training consisted entirely of fingerboarding and 1 minute foot on campusing reps in a 4x4 format. I guess this would have been before I built the board.

Quite surprised by that now as I know there were weaknesses in my climbing back then that a more holistic approach seems to be resolving but perhaps it works for specific styles or routes without all the other energy work.



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[Aussiegav]

Thanks to previous contributors to this thread. I’ve neglected serious attention to this area of training. With minimal access to a route wall and pending gloomy weather, I’ve started feet on Campusing on my board at home. Well, half board. It only goes from 1 to 4 as it’s a fold down board in the ginnel. It’s stored up on the metal bars joining the houses and I fold it down when I use it.

It’s set at 15 degrees with 20mm rungs.
I use a small footstool under it for my feet. probably puts me at angle of 10 degrees. Having to bend at the knees for the bottom rung and being at full stretch for the top. Being at full stretch when pumped is hard but does replicate climbing positions.
I’ve been using an interval timer. I’m doing 3 sets of 6 reps  of 2min on / 1min off. 3min rest between sets.
I’m getting pretty pumped and trying to get comfortable climbing in a lactated state. Something I’ve always never been fond of. ( Take!!!)

I also used variations of speed in the laddering as well.  I also hang on the 20mm edges for a few seconds to replicate trying to recover on less than ideal holds or clipping bolts on smaller holds. 

So reading the previous posts on this thread is reassuring that people have benefitted from this and I should come out of lockdown with some gains in addition to fingerboarding.

Someone in thread also said they did bigger moves in addition to the laddering, thanks for this tip. I’ll take that into future sessions.

I guess as I get more conditioned, the next step is to shorten the rest between reps or between sets?? 
Any thoughts?

[spidermonkey09]

Now we're speaking my language! When I did FOC, I started off with minute on, minute off x8. Ten minutes rest, then do it again until failure. As you get fitter drop it down to 1 minute on, 45 seconds rest, then 1 minute on, 30 seconds. Once you can do this easily you need to either speed up or add a bit of weight. Aim for a move a second (a metronome helps for this).

It is crushingly boring but gets you fit. Try and minimise time shaking out/chalking up.

[Aussiegav]

It is crushingly boring but gets you fit. Try and minimise time shaking out/chalking up.

I plug in my headphones so the music keeps me company.
So you recommend just banging out the moves and don’t vary the pace??  I don’t climb that fast even on easy ground. I’d thought specificity (pace of moves) would be more beneficial and transferable???