UKBouldering.com

RIP - free speech? (Read 28296 times)

underground

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1893
  • Karma: +57/-0
#50 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 03:20:11 am
I agree with that - Sloper was full of conviction, and actually a really nice bloke, and in the west I don't know why fora are averse to politics, they could have a 'politics' sub board and the admins wouldn't be chucked in clink. I know it's a divisive topic but people are obviously keen to discus it

chris j

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 589
  • Karma: +19/-1
#51 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 06:23:17 am
Nothing to do with the fact that your politics is not in line with that consensus? I'm sure I'm less bothered as I'm closer to it, but I do think it'd be healthier (or at least make for more informative reading) if the debate on here had more input from those to the right of the average UKBer - FD, yourself, ummm, haven't really picked up on others politics - and perhaps the consensus would then feel less oppressive? Certainly wouldn't want people to feel they couldn't discuss politics on here.

Bring back Sloper.

To be honest, I thought about contributing more at the start of this thread and in one or two others in the past. I didn't because I get the impression that there's a great depth of feeling and vitriol behind the left side of political spectrum on here (maybe it's to do with it mostly being Sheffield based, I suppose if you have to put up with the disappointment of having Nick Clegg?) and I think one of the worst things about t'other channel is when you have two sets of massively opposed entrenched views throwing shit at each other. Check pretty much any political thread but especially free Scotland or the Falklands, they really bring the nutters out. On an emotive subject like 'Maggie's a c*nt', no-one's going to give an inch and there's no evidence that will change their minds so IMO it's better not to try as it will probably end up with ukb being worse off for it.

Now if someone could help a luddite out and post that xkcd 'someone's wrong on the internet' sketch that would sum my badly reasoned argument up.

slackline

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 18863
  • Karma: +633/-26
    • Sheffield Boulder
#52 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 08:48:39 am
maybe it's to do with it mostly being Sheffield based, I suppose if you have to put up with the disappointment of having Nick Clegg?

I live in Sheffield, Clegg is not my MP.  There are six parliamentary wards covering the city. :read:

Now if someone could help a luddite out and post that xkcd 'someone's wrong on the internet' sketch that would sum my badly reasoned argument up.


grumpycrumpy

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 902
  • Karma: +34/-2
  • metrosexual redneck
#53 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 09:02:20 am
You had best smite everyone posting in cunt of the year thread. It's overflowing with political spite.
You said it. That thread is not ukb's finest, in my opinion. The best and worst thing about this forum is the oppressive consensus on many subjects. For climbing, and a few other practical topics, that works well: keeps idiots away. On politics ... personally I wish people would vent elsewhere and leave ukb politics-free. Especially the one or two who don't contribute anything else to this place. I am not alone with that wish ... others have said it to me directly.

ARFK mentioned receiving a pm regarding his membership of this site and asking why he only posted in the 'shooting the shit' section ........ And I admit it's my fault ......... Firstly I thought that he would make some interesting contributions to the place, which I feel he has, and, secondly I told him to keep well away from the climbing sections as he has no knowledge in that area whatsoever ....... Which he has ........

I also took some time to read through my posts of recent months and realised that I was just as guilty, a few clues and answers on the cryptic crosswords thread, a couple in other sections of 's'ing the s't' and one lone comment on my mate Dancing John and his first trip to Font .......

I didn't realise that this would be  a problem ....... I used to climb, not particulary well admittedly, highpoint being the 6b problem at the rh end of little slab, but after three of the people I regularly climbed with managed to smash their ankles and I narrowly escaped doing the same thing after falling from the second to last move on Conan, I decided to pretty much knock it on the head ......... And so, although I never felt qualified to comment on many of the threads, I occassionaly did ....... Generally with exclamations of amazement at the achievements I read about ........ But these days I don't feel qualified enough to even do that ..... Doesn't stop me reading them though .......

And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......             

Bubba

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 15367
  • Karma: +286/-6
#54 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 09:47:00 am
And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......
It's not a problem at all - and if it was I'd be rather hypocritical since I rarely go climbing these days either....which is why I also hardly ever post in climbing related topics on here.

We're not the only ones, there's quite a few retired/ex/wannabe/armchair climbers on here.  People come and go, drift into different activities, get injured, scared, etc.

<edit> * Just to clarify, the above is my personal opinion, not an official UKB policy
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 04:23:16 pm by Bubba, Reason: clarification of »

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
#55 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 11:04:45 am
On politics ... personally I wish people would vent elsewhere and leave ukb politics-free. Especially the one or two who don't contribute anything else to this place. I am not alone with that wish ... others have said it to me directly.

I wouldn't mind so much if folk's forum etiquette was a bit better. IE starting a new thread should be a last resort rather than your default. Perhaps a random rant thread might help?

chris j

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 589
  • Karma: +19/-1
#56 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 11:20:55 am

I live in Sheffield, Clegg is not my MP.  There are six parliamentary wards covering the city. :read:

You all live up north, isn't it all like one giant Hovis advert...? [/endcondescendingsoutherner]




Thank you! :great:

Bubba

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 15367
  • Karma: +286/-6
#57 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 11:22:41 am
Perhaps a random rant thread might help?
That's one reason we have the log pile.

Falling Down

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4880
  • Karma: +333/-4
    • bensblogredux
#58 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 11:39:34 am
but I do think it'd be healthier (or at least make for more informative reading) if the debate on here had more input from those to the right of the average UKBer - FD, yourself,

I would, and I do when time permits.  I like debating but it's so time consuming to get into, expecially when typing rather than talking.

mrjonathanr

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5377
  • Karma: +242/-6
  • Getting fatter, not fitter.
#59 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 12:26:49 pm
I think this site would be vastly improved by people taking their politics elsewhere, but that's my personal view,

Fair enough.

crimp

  • Guest
#60 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 03:23:28 pm
Personally, i started this thread in a knee jerk reaction to censorship of my right to public reply.

I fully get where habrich was coming from. My own mother would have been kinder to have let her go 2 years earlier. Habrich ain't stupid, he knows there was nothing personal in peoples hatred of thatcher.

As for honouring her kids memories. Fuck them. An emotionally retarded daughter living off her mothers name, and an upper class mercenary arms dealer, tried to make a fortune by trying to overthrow regimes in exchange for oil and gas deals. No sympathy for them or their pinochet supporting mother here.

Fuck her. I am glad she is dead.

How it relates to this forum is another matter.

If people are welcome to bring an issue up here, then people must be free to comment as they feel.

There is no point allowing a topic with no right of reply.

I have always found OUR forum well focussed on what we are all in to, and that's climbing right?

Let's keep it that way. But if side issues surface, people are gonna vent.

crimp

  • Guest
#61 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 03:52:58 pm
Oh, and i would also like to big up bubbas statement on rejoice thread, and show some love for grumpycrumpy and aLICErOBERTSfANcLUB

crimp

  • Guest
#62 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 04:04:38 pm
sorry bubba. In this thread, not rejoice.

Keeping it real

Bubba

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 15367
  • Karma: +286/-6
#63 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 05:15:53 pm
Just had a quick peek at the Supertopo forums - nasty!


crimp

  • Guest
#64 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 05:20:25 pm
And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......           
There are various personal views on that, but no agreed policy.

That said, I would hope it is self-evident to everyone that there's a tipping point with any special interest forum beyond which having too high proportion of active members, who don't share the interest, makes the forum dysfunctional. ukb is probably nowhere near that point. Amongst climbing sites, I would say SuperTopo in the US has long gone past it.

i feel this is a bit of a backhanded way of telling someone they are not welcome.

I am uncomfortable with this.

If that's the case, MTFU and say so.

If that includes me, i would rather know where i stand.

crimp

  • Guest
#65 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 06:37:51 pm
Habrich

Don't ruin your day on account of my BS. Nobody wants that.

Let it ride. We understand each other i think.

I can be difficult on account of my mental health problems, but i am also a committed regional climber.

Shaun

grumpycrumpy

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 902
  • Karma: +34/-2
  • metrosexual redneck
#66 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 08:02:54 pm
And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......
It's not a problem at all - and if it was I'd be rather hypocritical since I rarely go climbing these days either....which is why I also hardly ever post in climbing related topics on here.


Ta Bubba :great:
Oh, and i would also like to big up bubbas statement on rejoice thread, and show some love for grumpycrumpy and aLICErOBERTSfANcLUB

Ta Adge  :great:
And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......           
There are various personal views on that, but no agreed policy.

That said, I would hope it is self-evident to everyone that there's a tipping point with any special interest forum beyond which having too high proportion of active members, who don't share the interest, makes the forum dysfunctional. ukb is probably nowhere near that point. Amongst climbing sites, I would say SuperTopo in the US has long gone past it.

I guess I'll start packing ......

Thanks, it's been fun ........

Rob



crimp

  • Guest
#67 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 08:18:44 pm
Rob,

no worries bud. We'll go out together. Fight the power.

Jaspersharpe

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • 1B punter
  • Posts: 12344
  • Karma: +600/-20
  • Allez Oleeeve!
#68 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 08:20:32 pm
Nobody has said that's necessary grumpy although I can understand why you might feel like that.

mrjonathanr

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5377
  • Karma: +242/-6
  • Getting fatter, not fitter.
#69 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 08:26:17 pm
^+1
I wouldn't be too sensitive mr grumpy, if the reasons you've enjoyed participating in this forum still apply ..then why not?

shark

Offline
  • *****
  • Administrator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 8697
  • Karma: +625/-17
  • insect overlord #1
#70 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 10:30:24 pm

I guess I'll start packing ......



Me too. Bouldering sucks.

Jaspersharpe

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • 1B punter
  • Posts: 12344
  • Karma: +600/-20
  • Allez Oleeeve!
#71 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 14, 2013, 10:36:30 pm
Only if you're shit at it. Oh, sorry shark. :)

Lund

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 442
  • Karma: +85/-12
#72 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 15, 2013, 10:32:35 am
I held off posting on this thread, because Bubba and I had a run in t'other week on a similar one, and I thought that frankly there was little point in contributing to the discussion as it was a waste of time.  But... now I'm changing my mind.

This is a great forum.  It's great, in my opinion, because the sections on climbing are very informative and very useful.  The training section, the conditions reports, the fact that it keeps up with the state of the climbing nation.  The fact that it is unafraid to call people out over bullshit and that a spirited and balanced but hard discussion can be had about climbing and climbing ethics, and simpson etc. is fucking fantastic.

Why is this bit good?  It’s good because of the knowledge, the expertise, and the experience in that area.  Not from specific people – there are some with more than others though clearly – but the hive mind.  The forum, as a whole, knows what it is talking about – and that’s why the climbing parts are good.  Unlike (say) ukc, where the hive mind is nowhere near as good.

If you look at the other topics – politics, etc. – the hive mind isn’t as developed.  Without wanting to let me political opinions leak into my point, there is a lot of ignorance about economics, politics and FACTS (closely related to SCIENCE).  This means that the discussions, although due to the personalities and the environments are equally vociferous but the standards of the FACTS just aren’t as high.  This is why we end up with discussions like the Thatcher one.  Don’t bother disagreeing with the specifics here – I don’t care if you are happy if she’s dead or not, that isn’t the point – the point is that COLLECTIVELY we are a bunch of thickos on non-climbing topics.  Disagree with that if you like.

So what I think happens is that we end up with a bunch of people communicating their opinions strongly (as is the style of the forum), but having less clue, and then you end up with something that is at times worse than ukc.  (Or how I imagine it is, as I never go on there anymore, but you get my point I hope.)

Nobody wants that.

So we end up with the moderators clamping down on it.

They’re trying to prevent offense to the forum users, to themselves, and – perhaps critically – UKB’s sponsors.  If I were still on the BMC’s board for example, I would definitely be thinking about associating the BMC’s brand with the Thatcher threads.  It’s not the whole board, but.... that vitriol is just not something I would have wanted the BMC’s brand to be associated with.

This is a hard task.  As soon as they start clamping down on it, in the absence of a sensible framework, they start pissing people off.  People don’t expect to be moderated, they don’t expect their shit to be deleted – and they don’t consider what they’re actually doing properly.  So we get annoyed, as we LIKE the light moderation.

Should we stick to climbing topics alone?  I don’t think so.  But we should expect harder moderation on our bullshit – and much less moderation, if any at all, on the climbing parts.  I for one am happy with that – the deletion of the fit birds topic for example, and would be happy if the rejoice thread was wiped too.

P.S Bubba, for the record: I puntered you for your explanation of your moderation, not the moderation itself.  I’m happy with aggressive moderation, but please don’t try to excuse it with “it’s my ball”, that’s just needless and wrong.  (You can’t play on your own.)  You should also stick to your own rules: don’t just ban people because you feel like it, stick to the guidelines you wrote etc.





slackline

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 18863
  • Karma: +633/-26
    • Sheffield Boulder
#73 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 15, 2013, 10:54:50 am
If you look at the other topics – politics, etc. – the hive mind isn’t as developed.  Without wanting to let me political opinions leak into my point, there is a lot of ignorance about economics, politics and FACTS (closely related to SCIENCE).  This means that the discussions, although due to the personalities and the environments are equally vociferous but the standards of the FACTS just aren’t as high.  This is why we end up with discussions like the Thatcher one.  Don’t bother disagreeing with the specifics here – I don’t care if you are happy if she’s dead or not, that isn’t the point –

On this front it would be useful, as we all have limited time to post, if people provide links to blogs/articles and such like that go into greater detail on the FACTS so that others reading can discover a bit more about the other points of view.

Of course no one is obliged to, but it often adds credence to the point being made, rather than appearing to be just ramblings on a forum.

the point is that COLLECTIVELY we are a bunch of thickos on non-climbing topics.  Disagree with that if you like.

I'm afraid I do because there are INDIVIDUALS who do know a lot about non-climbing topics and are far from thickos...

Jasper knows what he's talking about when it comes to finances.

Dense, JB, Bonjoy and others know their rope access.

Paul B, dave, JB and many others know their photography.

tomtom, Will and andy_e know their geology.

habrich knows about economics/markets.

etc. etc. etc.

To ignore this would be a shame.

shark

Offline
  • *****
  • Administrator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 8697
  • Karma: +625/-17
  • insect overlord #1
#74 Re: RIP - free speech?
April 15, 2013, 10:57:43 am

They’re trying to prevent offense to the forum users, to themselves, and – perhaps critically – UKB’s sponsors.  If I were still on the BMC’s board for example, I would definitely be thinking about associating the BMC’s brand with the Thatcher threads.  It’s not the whole board, but.... that vitriol is just not something I would have wanted the BMC’s brand to be associated with.

Good post. Some people of course will be offended by anything and the task is to where to draw the line between what is acceptable or unacceptable and this line moves as well as society's mores change. 

I know you only cited the BMC for illustrative purposes but they are more robust than many might assume and, if I can take the opportunity to big them up for a second, been steadfast in their support of UKB even when Ryan emailed the CEO and President directly accusing us of misogyny.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal