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James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log... (Read 71853 times)

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#125 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
September 27, 2016, 10:20:09 am
Great stuff  :2thumbsup:

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#126 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
September 27, 2016, 10:28:21 am
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“James Mcbullshit I’m wearing these”

 ;D ;D ;D :lol: :lol: :lol:

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#127 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
September 27, 2016, 01:18:12 pm
That especially  ;D

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#128 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
September 27, 2016, 02:50:43 pm
Such a great blog  :2thumbsup:


Have just about worked out not to Wad comPiler.

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#129 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
September 27, 2016, 08:48:13 pm
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rumour of Dave Macleod losing loads of weight living on cheesecake and butter

I find myself giggling at the idea of D Mac making his equivalent of the "fish and a rice cake" video, but saying "cheesecake and butter" in various combinations

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#130 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
September 30, 2016, 02:48:23 pm
The face I cleaned up on Cloggy in early July is looking like it will have to be a rite of spring.

Is that Redheads version of Masters Wall , or is there to many memories there ?

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#131 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 06, 2016, 08:54:16 pm
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It’s worth remembering that many of the UKs top sport climbers very rarely climb above E5 without use of a top rope and if they do it normally involves a cameraman to capture the rarity so being able to onsight E5/6 on a variety of different rock types is a bigger deal than the modern media often makes out.


That point strikes me as a bit stereotypical of those who find it difficult remembering that being strong physically doesn’t equate to being adept on physically easier but bold climbing - or even on climbs with any perceived risk greater than a typical sport climb.
Likewise having great technique or being good at bold climbing doesn’t equate to being strong on extremely physical terrain - witness Caff getting shut down after >20 sessions by a pure PE route in Liquid Ambar :P . Comparing hard sport to any trad is comparing apples to pears. (I also recall Caff saying he struggled to second a grade IX mixed route saying it felt nails... but that doesn't mean someone who climbs grade IX can cruise up hundreds of E7s - I know enough grade IX climbers who struggle on E4s.)

I get that he’s trying to point out that some trad routes' seriousness, tricky-to-read nature or dirtiness are enough to shut down a lot of sport climbers who climb hard sport routes. But that isn't news is it? Sport isn’t trad and trad isn’t sport. You don’t hear many people pointing out that ‘few of the UKs top boulderers who climb font 8B even climb E6/f8a/(or mixed VIII!)… clearly it isn’t relevant and each to their own (style of climbing).

Implying that media attention overlooks onsighting E5s/6s in favour of sport climbers redpointing 8c - maybe Caff's right. But unless it's a teenager (or a woman  :worms:) then neither achievements are really regarded as significant anymore are they? Looking at it in terms of significance - how many Brits are climbing 9a or 9a+, versus are climbing E10/11 - I’d guess around a similar number (with some crossover). With each given similar media coverage from what I can tell… although I don’t follow any social media.

If he's trying to imply (as it seems) that up to a certain level, around trad E5/6 and sport low-mid 8s, one type of climbing is 'harder' than another - i.e. climbers who can onsight E6 and also redpoint mid 8s are more of a rarity than climbers who can redpoint mid 8s but not onsight E6 - again that's probably correct. Some of that discrepency I'd expect comes from the wider skillset and slightly higher barriers to progression required of trad - time being the major one. It's the same with mixed/alpine - it isn't *really* any harder it's just the barriers to entry/progression are higher, so far fewer do it.
And so what if one's 'harder'? Those levels (E6/ mid 8s) aren't really 'significant' in the scheme of things - all climbing up to around 8c+ and E10 is an amateur level isn't it: demonstrably achievable by any sufficiently motivated person with full use of their limbs, while working in a 'proper' full-time job.

And if that point above *is* worth remembering then - taking ‘UK’s top trad climbers’ to mean =>E9 - it should also be worth remembering that many of the UK’s top trad climbers rarely climb above 8b..

edit: good blog btw!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 09:22:17 pm by petejh »

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#132 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 01:06:38 pm
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That point strikes me as a bit stereotypical of those who find it difficult remembering that being strong physically doesn’t equate to being adept on physically easier but bold climbing - or even on climbs with any perceived risk greater than a typical sport climb.

Hmm. I don't think that is what he's saying. I think there's a perception that because E6 was being onsighted back when 8a+ was really hard, that now everyone has climbed 8c onsighting E6 would be trivial (if only anyone were bothered, which they aren't, cos sport is so hip right now).

Whereas the facts are that onsighting E6 is still a level few achieve with any regularity. Why?

We were discussing it last night on the way back from Rhoscolyn. I think trad performance is a lot less responsive to training as sport. Sure, if you've got a solid trad pedigree a bit of stamina will soon up your grade. But you do need to put in the groundwork. The onsight is also a lot easier to balls up or simply avoid than the eventual redpoint of an 8c (unless it's in a day, we never hear much about how long the siege took). My other theory is that back when trad was the only game in town there was a lot more beta floating around (I'm sure some UKBers like Shark, Neil F etc might have an insight?).

A few times recently we've been on a hard trad with just a guidebook description, only discovering later that they might well not have been repeated since a first ascent 30 years ago, very much not onsight. Above E5, this is not unusual anywhere slightly off the beaten track. A mate termed this as climbing 'blindsight', which I've always liked. A little beta goes a hell of a long way in this situation, even just knowing someone else has done it (and how good you think they are relative to yourself).

PS Not really talking about grit, obvs.

PS if you bear in mind Caff's winter cv before seconding Cracking up I think it makes getting up it at all fucking impressive!

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#133 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 01:52:38 pm
Whereas the facts are that onsighting E6 is still a level few achieve with any regularity. Why?


Cos as he says, it's apples n pears. One theory could be that in society today younger climbers have less time? It's easier to train for sport climbing indoors with short chunks of time, than to serve a trad apprenticeship? You only need half a day to climb 8c, you need whole weekends away to be on-sighting E6s.

Not sure I agree more beta was around back in the day? I reckon it's always been the case that at E6 and above there are a small number of routes that get done. That's what makes Caff's on-sight CV so impressive, he's gone and done all the routes that never get done!

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#134 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 02:12:04 pm
Not sure I agree more beta was around back in the day?

I'm pretty sure there wasn't. Sure, there were times someone would repeat something and then there would be a flurry of further repeats whilst it was chalked - something like Midsummer's would be a good example of a route that would happen to. But other than that there was only word-of-mouth whereas now there is word-of-mouth plus huge repositories of hugely accessible information. More than that word of mouth had to be literally face-to-face. There were plenty of times I went on something with absolutely no knowledge.

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#135 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 02:24:10 pm
Yeah just seeing that a route has been logged on a UKC logbook is very helpful. A few additional comments can be immeasurably valuable for your 'on-sight'  ;)

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#136 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 03:22:54 pm
All true, although these huge repositories tend to dry up when they'd be most useful. A couple of routes we did recently, despite a photo topo in a modern select guide the crag wasn't even on UKC. I then got an email from the definitive guide author asking for info.

For a good few routes in the peak all UKC has been good for is to tell me the route had 'a flurry of repeats' in the early nineties, and none since. I still suspect they may have been better informed...

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#137 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 03:30:45 pm
Depends how much time you trawl around on social media I guess, but even with me not being on FB I 'noticed' that some of the routes on N Stack has been brushed up recently. I suspect anyone in the frame would be getting their ar*e over there right now in perfect temps :-\

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#138 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 03:33:52 pm
Hmm, missed that one completely. I must have the wrong friends.

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#139 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 03:47:48 pm
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It’s worth remembering that many of the UKs top sport climbers very rarely climb above E5 without use of a top rope and if they do it normally involves a cameraman to capture the rarity so being able to onsight E5/6 on a variety of different rock types is a bigger deal than the modern media often makes out.

I'm glad this has come up, something about that comment annoyed me. Of course that is Caffs raison d'etre.

I just thought, how does he know what anyone is doing? And of course I then wondered exactly who the dig is aimed at? or is this ire just the media, the sponsors, British climbings existential question.

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#140 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 03:48:58 pm
yeah obviously that isn't supposed to be a quote.


I'm glad this has come up, something about that comment annoyed me. Of course that is Caffs raison d'etre.

I just thought, how does he know what anyone is doing? And of course I then wondered exactly who the dig is aimed at? or is this ire just the media, the sponsors, British climbings existential question.

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#141 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 04:34:30 pm
I think Caff's totally right, and from my perspective as a sport weeny who underperforms at trad the reason is training.

5-10 years ago there was hardly anyone climbing 8c and above. Now there are tons, and the difference is training. In the 90s it was all grit and bouldering and no-one bothered to train stamina. Now it's in fashion and sport grades have rocketed.

But being good at trad requires steadiness and experience; you've got to be able to spot the funky placements, and make judgements and relax in gnarly positions. No amount of aerocap can get you those skills. Sure, fitness helps but to be good at trad you've got to spend a lot of time trad climbing and most modern climbers don't.

As a result, if you measure impressiveness by the number of people doing it on a regular basis, then regularly on sighting E6 is equivalent to 8c+ redpoints in my book. But cooler.

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#142 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 04:52:59 pm
How cool is it to be really good on a LatticeboardTM?

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#143 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 05:02:57 pm
, then regularly on sighting E6 is equivalent to 8c+ redpoints in my book. But cooler.

Trad is to sport climbing what skateboarding is to rollerblading. You can do bigger flips and tricks on a pair of rollerblades but skateboarding will always be cooler.

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#144 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 05:03:25 pm
I think Caff's totally right, and from my perspective as a sport weeny who underperforms at trad the reason is training.

5-10 years ago there was hardly anyone climbing 8c and above. Now there are tons, and the difference is training. In the 90s it was all grit and bouldering and no-one bothered to train stamina. Now it's in fashion and sport grades have rocketed.

I suspect the more weather-proof nature of sport helps too.  I gave up on trad mainly due to the frustration of losing entire weeks worth of climbing holidays to rain.  It was similar when I lived in the North East but used to mainly grit boulder - weekend after weeked of driving long distances to look dolefully at damp rocks. 

Since starting sport climbing, it's been incredibly unusual to lose a planned day's climbing, say from March to October, to the weather (living around 30-35 mins from Malham and Kilnsey helps admittedly).  Holidays are now spent climbing 14 days out of 15 somewhere sunny, rather than mooching around cafes / outdoor shops in Llanberis or Kendal waiting for the rain to stop.  Sport climbing is just such an available and reliable medium - which surely has to help with pushing standards and encouraging the cultivation of ambitious goals.

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#145 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 06:29:27 pm
Onsighting the odd e5 is way easier than battering 8a into submission but regularly onsighting e6 on a variety of different rock types - there can't be many people doing that in the uk? It's like a different 'sport'

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#146 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 06:42:22 pm
, then regularly on sighting E6 is equivalent to 8c+ redpoints in my book. But cooler.

Trad is to sport climbing what skateboarding is to rollerblading. You can do bigger flips and tricks on a pair of rollerblades but skateboarding will always be cooler.

Thats a terrible analogy. Maybe more like skating vert and street.

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#147 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 08:36:42 pm
, then regularly on sighting E6 is equivalent to 8c+ redpoints in my book. But cooler.

Trad is to sport climbing what skateboarding is to rollerblading. You can do bigger flips and tricks on a pair of rollerblades but skateboarding will always be cooler.

Thats a terrible analogy. Maybe more like skating vert and street.

I'd say it's like comparing someone skateboarding barefooted to someone skateboarding with shoes. The barefooted guy would get more kudos for being more gnarly as the risk is greater, but ultimately the shit he does isn't half as hard as what the other guy does.

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#148 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 09:01:27 pm

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#149 Re: James Mchaffie - Caffs (B)Log...
October 07, 2016, 11:04:48 pm
, then regularly on sighting E6 is equivalent to 8c+ redpoints in my book. But cooler.

Trad is to sport climbing what skateboarding is to rollerblading. You can do bigger flips and tricks on a pair of rollerblades but skateboarding will always be cooler.

Thats a terrible analogy. Maybe more like skating vert and street.

+1, get out of the skatepark

 

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