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The end of the NHS. (Read 193125 times)

mrjonathanr

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#550 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 10, 2016, 01:47:29 pm
I'd expect retention will be a crisis.

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#551 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 10, 2016, 02:06:28 pm
Contract imposed - No one takes up medicine at university, everyone leaves the country as soon as they can. Hospitals look something like 28 days later.

slightly less able students would apply for medicine instead

universities might lower fees for foreign students - which would be very attractive to some nationalities since it would probably lead to a job and permission to stay in the UK afterwards (until they get a better offer somewhere else, of course)

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#552 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 10, 2016, 02:37:25 pm
The only way to fill the increasing recruitment gaps in the wider health context is to import trained staff. It simply takes too long to do anything else. Even when they try and train more (like they did for nurses) the unintended consequences of austerity end up hobbling their efforts. We train medical staff for other countries with better staff conditions and pay and other countries with worse pay and conditions train staff for us (and the home countries at the bottom suffer the most).

A forgotten important area is Public Health which has moved into the financial fire-storms in local authorities... see how many doctors are applying to be consultants there and remember how much cheaper it is to prevent illness rather than cure it.

None of this 'car crash' was inevitable... we have one of the lowest per capita funding levels of any western country for pretty good outcomes, including less per capita than the US state spends (before the citizens pay a penny of their huge insurance premiums) for its pretty dreadful outcomes for the bottom half of its population in wealth terms.

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#553 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 10, 2016, 02:59:53 pm
I've nothing to add apart from my praise and thanks to all in the NHS and education system, despite cunts like Jez Hunt making their lives hell

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#554 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 11, 2016, 02:49:10 pm
So its to be imposition and escalation rather than further negotiation. Sadly we face interesting times ahead.... not a good period to be ill.  An academic colleague of mine I spoke to an hour ago is utterly convinced junior doctors are just being greedy (no one else gets more on a Saturday etc).Thinking on this, if industrial action become more difficult I suspect the central BMA line may become a lot harder to sell as having majority public support... ie that this is about safety and protecting the NHS, including the difficult argument that any extra income for doctors on a Saturday is more about retaining financial penalties for employers who overwork their GP's out of hours. Hunt is obviously a liar and easy to dislike but members of the public are going to get caught much more in the crossfire now.

On the international comparisons point I found this nice summary on the guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/09/which-country-has-worlds-best-healthcare-system-this-is-the-nhs


Footwork

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#555 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 11, 2016, 06:08:36 pm
I watched Hunt's 'speech' around midday today.

I lost it when he started talking about how the public would thank him in a couple of years time when the NHS is truly 7 days a week  :furious: :furious: :furious:

What a complete fucking tosspot.

Yes, that public will love a '7 day' NHS @ £50 a week. Will climbers have to get specific health insurance policies in the future? No more free rides in the big yellow taxi etc.


Will Hunt

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#556 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 11, 2016, 06:18:03 pm
I heard him speaking on the PM programme. What struck me was that there were only mutterings of assent in the chamber. Where were the jeers, heckles, catcalls? Where the fuck is the Labour party?

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#557 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 11, 2016, 06:35:19 pm
Most people I know get more money to work outside the general 9-5......though I'm guessing that most work >12 hour shifts anyway. If people in education/NHS were to work t rule like other industries we would all be screwed. I'd rather have less money an know my children would be educated and fixed properly!

tomtom

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#558 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 11, 2016, 06:46:11 pm

I heard him speaking on the PM programme. What struck me was that there were only mutterings of assent in the chamber. Where were the jeers, heckles, catcalls? Where the fuck is the Labour party?

Obviously benefiting from their new leadership....

If ever there was need for a sarcasm icon....

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#559 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 12, 2016, 11:59:58 am
An academic colleague of mine I spoke to an hour ago is utterly convinced junior doctors are just being greedy

Which is exactly what Mr Hunt wants - see Ken Clarke on BBC yesterday, purely about income.  Nonsense.

I doubt there will be much more industrial action.  But imagine what would happen if nobody signs the contract and there are no junior doctors for the month of August?

a dense loner

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#560 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 12, 2016, 01:49:29 pm
Double the amount will sign in September?

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#561 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 12, 2016, 02:51:49 pm
The contracts are from August to Feb, dense.

a dense loner

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#562 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 12, 2016, 05:05:23 pm
So what you're telling me is there will be no junior doctors til nx March?

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#563 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 12, 2016, 05:42:57 pm
The blocks are usually six or 12 months starting in August or February, so if no one takes up the contract when the imposition starts in August then , yes, you are correct.

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#564 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 12, 2016, 06:06:46 pm
Sweetest four words in the world :P

What a shit state of affairs! :shit:

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#565 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 12, 2016, 06:24:25 pm

So its to be imposition and escalation rather than further negotiation. Sadly we face interesting times ahead.... not a good period to be ill.  An academic colleague of mine I spoke to an hour ago is utterly convinced junior doctors are just being greedy (no one else gets more on a Saturday etc).Thinking on this, if industrial action become more difficult I suspect the central BMA line may become a lot harder to sell as having majority public support... ie that this is about safety and protecting the NHS, including the difficult argument that any extra income for doctors on a Saturday is more about retaining financial penalties for employers who overwork their GP's out of hours. Hunt is obviously a liar and easy to dislike but members of the public are going to get caught much more in the crossfire now.

On the international comparisons point I found this nice summary on the guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/09/which-country-has-worlds-best-healthcare-system-this-is-the-nhs

Yep, clearly they are all lazy and simply holding us to ransom by withholding that healthcare which they are duty bound to give us.
They should be paying us really.
Not.
What utter bollocks. Which field of Academia does your colleague put in 60 hour weeks, mainly at night? How much vomit, excrement and death/suffering does it involve?

I wouldn't want to do it and I find it surprising that people could feel the way your colleague does. Different strokes I guess.


 





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#566 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 13, 2016, 10:14:25 am
"Which field of Academia does your colleague put in 60 hour weeks, mainly at night? How much vomit, excrement and death/suffering"

He is actually a very hard working chap... worked himself to the edge of illness on a few occasions. He is unusually conservative for an academic but not so much for the professional classes. The reason I mentioned him is that for the doctors to win, such arguments from the sceptical public need answers. Many people just dont get the reasons behind the dispute. They haven't thought through the implications of 98% in a ballot of doctors: that this can't be about party politics or greed. Railing against such views doesn't help the doctors win.

Jeremy,as ever, contines to help the doctors case with his inept attempts at spin:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/12/health-chief-letter-whatever-necessary-contracts-not-agreed
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 10:22:45 am by Offwidth »

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tomtom

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#569 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 19, 2016, 01:00:45 pm
Just tried to get a GP appointment. March 7th. :(

webbo

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#570 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 19, 2016, 02:03:25 pm
Just post your symptoms up on here and I'm sure between the lot of us. We will come up with a diagnosis and some sort of treatment.

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#571 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 19, 2016, 02:23:29 pm
If you really want to know what's going on. Google nhsnetworks

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#572 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 20, 2016, 11:21:44 am
So...
What I'd like to know in this argument is what are the terms being offered (or rather,now imposed). Nowhere, as far as I can tell - as a daily listener of R4, online Guardian reader, interested in current affairs - economist, spectator, various other sources - have the BMA or government laid out in simple terms what the new contract actually looks like.

The government appear to me to have tried (I could be wrong, maybe they just have greater presence), and the BMA appear to me to take a line of hysterically drowning out the governments figures with the quickly-getting-irritating line about 'it's about patient safety'. Sorry, I don't trust anyone - neither the Government nor the BMA/Junior Doctors - if they can't explain something in simple-to-understand terms. The public aren't idiots (many are but most can get a sense of unspoken agendas and bullshit).

I'm confident I'm not alone in that when I listen to BMA representatives I can't help thinking they're spinning the argument just as much as the other side = instant mistrust.

As it stands I simply don't trust what the BMA is saying - I haven't heard them give a coherent outline of the pay deal as it compares to now, nor a coherent argument of why 'patient safety' will decline. It smells too much to me of a powerful cohort (medical professionals) wanting to protect their position and using 'patient safety' as a powerful and evocative way to do so. This to me comes across as a patronising 'we know best' type of thinking..

Nor do I trust Hunt, but that's for a different reason, that being he's a politician. He gives the impression of trying to do good but maybe he's just a good actor.

Just give me the figures. Then I'll be able to make my own mind up about whether I should believe the apparently hysterical BMA line, or the apparently heartless Goverment line.

What's the big picture? - Doctors are getting less powerful, nurses are becoming more professional and more powerful (a good thing imo). Technology is increasing patient power and knowledge. Data science is allowing more and more specifically targeted medicine (stratified medicine). This is only going in one direction.
This looks partly to me about the power struggles of an under-threat group of people indispensable to society but not so indispensable that others won't take their place in years to come.

And what about the reported £2.9 billion paid in agency fees for Doctors and Nurses in the previous 9 months  - agencies which the government have had to put a cap on? Who's 'safety' is being protected by these agencies and the staff they hire out? It's just a case of profiteering, as in many other trades that roll over and get sucked dry by parasitic middlemen at the expense of the taxpayer.

What happens to patient safety 5 years down the line in the new contract. Does it really suffer, could it remain the same, or could it improve? I'm open-minded but I don't know enough not to be.

(none of that is meant to disregard how vital medical professionals are - all the targeted medicine and technology in the world won't make up for inadequately trained/motivated Doctors and Nurses in the event of serious life-threatening trauma)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 11:29:31 am by petejh »

mrjonathanr

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#573 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 20, 2016, 11:42:55 am
Do you think Hunt is trying to improve patient care in the face of retrenched professional opposition or prepare for full privatisation?

Are we confident that the weekend staffing changes will improve patient safety? Mr Hunt's department seems unsure: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/leaked-document-reveals-jeremy-hunts-own-officials-doubt-his-evidence-on-a-seven-day-nhs-a6876476.html

7 days a week written into staff contracts would be a better model for maximising profit in a privatised industry, just ask John Lewis, Tesco, Debenhams etc. I imagine private contractors would rather that battle be won before they take up the reins.


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#574 Re: The end of the NHS.
February 20, 2016, 12:01:34 pm
Very briefly, The government say it's about quality. They say having more juniors at the weekend will achieve this (although they have also said it's senior cover that makes a difference). There is no evidence for this.

They say it is cost neutral. There will be no more doctors.

So, for the same money and number of staff they will increase working at weekend.

Logic dictates that either weekday covers falls, or people work longer hours for less.

 

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