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The end of the NHS. (Read 195803 times)

GCW

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#275 Re: The end of the NHS.
November 15, 2014, 08:03:22 am
In some respects it is irrelevant. Technically, I'm supposed to acknowledge my "complaint", then investigate and respond within a certain timescale. This is obviously a fair bit of time and effort in what are usually stupid cases. In this one, I don't know who it is so I can't respond. We will have to look at it internally. :yawn:

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#276 Re: The end of the NHS.
November 15, 2014, 10:01:00 am
They are claiming they are not receiving appropriate treatment and are requesting that they are given therapy 3 times a week home visits by a female nurse.
This is someone that the risk indicators strongly suggest should not be visited at home and if there is no way a home visit can be avoided then it would be a two person visit one of whom should be a male(large size).
They will not accept any clinical opinions that this is not viable.
Chances are they will reoffend blame their" Illness" and lack of treatment and sue.

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#277 Re: The end of the NHS.
November 15, 2014, 12:10:22 pm
That's shit management. There's no loss and therefore no basis for a claim in law.

We're dealing with a case of negligent dental treatment, where the patient did not consent to the procedure, the evidence from the expert (joint) witness is overwhelmingly in favour of the claimant and yet the matter had been running on for 2.5 years with no admission then 16 months after the joint expert report said the defendant was liable there was an admission but no offer.

We had to issue proceedings to obtain an interim payment to fund remedial treatment.

The interim payment was £8500 and the costs of the application for the interim payment were about £2k for us (and a similar amount for the defendant) still there's no offer to settle.

The costs at the moment will already exceed the value of the claim, the defendant's actions are not in their own interests as this case will end up with £35k for damages and costs globally will be at least double that.  While it's better for us to have a £20k bill, this really isn't in the interests of the patient/client or indeed the NHS.

This is not the defendant solicitors fault it is the NHSLA not giving reasonable instructions.

The above is not an outlier, rather a common occurrence.

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#278 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 06, 2015, 01:06:14 pm
A classic Roy Lilley Xmas post:

   
Merry Xmas, again!
News and Comment from Roy Lilley

Yes, it's me again. I'm sorry but I just couldn't let this go. Something dropped into my inbox that made me soooo cross, I put it on Twitter and Twitter exploded; now a lot more people are angry. https://twitter.com/RoyLilley/status/547137950581288960/photo/1
 
This is not the time of the year to be annoyed. This is about good cheer, mince pies, sprouts and peace but I'll have to get this off my chest before I can settle down to my slice of Norfolk.
 
It's a letter sent to medical directors from the three blind mice; the Carbuncle, the Totally Dismal Army the TDA and over-paid Monitor (The boss costs us, in total, probably close on a quarter of a million a year), the purpose is to remind medical directors that the NHS is busy and there are targets to be met.
 
It is signed by two people I doubt you would know if they popped out of your Christmas cracker and the third, unbelievably, Uncle Bruce. I think Bruce Keogh is the most trusted man in the NHS and why he has put his name to this I cannot imagine.
 
This letter epitomises what is wrong with today's NHS. First, it is signed by three people. Who runs the NHS? If I want tickets for the Cup Final I could ring up Greg Dyke, the chairman of the FA. If I have a complaint about a dress I bought in Top Shop I could ring Phil Green. I know who runs these organisations. Who runs the NHS? Who do I ring? If Martians land in the back garden and demand 'take me to your leader' where do you go? Train to Leeds, Tube to Elephant&Castle or cab to Whitehall?
 
The second irritating, exasperating, infuriating thing is the tone of the letter. 'There should be zero tolerance of over 12 hours waits for admission'. YES, WE ALL KNOW THAT! And, eleven hours and 10, 9, 8, 7 and even half an hour. That is why the NHS is straining everything it's got, to work in this silted up, fragmented, short of people system.
 
When social services can't get people home safely, patients are two in a bed and there are six ambulances parked outside, should we show this letter to the patients and say; 'Please go home, we have no hope in seeing you in the target time and we will get into trouble if you stay'.
 
This letter is simply backside covering; when the inevitable headline appears in the Daily Mail and LaLite goes off on one, these two and god knows why, Uncle Bruce, can say, 'We wrote a letter, Minister'.
 
Does it say 'if you have a problem ring me'? No. Does it say here are ten really good ideas that might give you some help. No. Does it say we have a plan, a brainwave, anything helpful, useful, assistive? No.
 
So, when the anonymous ones are feet up, snoozing after their Xmas lunch they can dose-off in the knowledge that whilst the rest of the NHS is busting a gut, heaving, sweating, pushing, shoving, straining and working 'till they drop... they have written a billet-doux. They've done their bit.
 
And their 'bit' is? Point out that the NHS is busy and if you foul up send in a root-cause analysis, in triplicate, by Monday.
 
This letter says it all about the NHS; poor leadership, clunky communications, dysfunctional triplicated, distributed leadership model, buck-passing, annoying, petty, unhelpful people looking busy. It says 'I'm covering my back by loading stuff onto your back'.
 
This has to stop. The pointless TDA have to be scaled back, rolled into a slimmed down Monitor. NHS leaders have to behave like leaders.  If things can't be done they have to say so, figure out why and fix it if it can be fixed.  We need 2015 to be the year of stripped-pine honesty.
 
If the service is going to get through the next few months threatening letters disguised as seasonal greetings won't help. They fool no one and are at the heart of the other corrosive NHS malaise; bullying, whistleblowing and getting to the truth. You can bet your life Medical Directors will be shoving this letter down the pipeline and down the throats of the front line; heaping more pressure onto people who dare not complain or question because they see whistle-blowers lose their jobs. 
 
Bullying starts at the top and this letter is testament to that.
 
Leaders must learn, when targets are failed only one word matters; 'why'. Serious incident reports will never discover more than reflective management. Leaders must celebrate success and share best practice, give time and space for good people to do great things.
 
Merry Xmas, again...
------------------------
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If you want to know, too, join me, the NHSE Primary care Tsar and Deputy Medical Director Mike Bewick, leading GP Dr Clare Gerada and the president of the NAPC and former policy advisor Dr James Kingsland, at the Kings Fund for a night of
 The Big Conversation about Primary Care.
  Details here.
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Will Hunt

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#279 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 06, 2015, 10:03:15 pm
I do not work in the NHS but my partner is a sister. We often liftshare and even I can see that leadership in the NHS from the management side is totally fucking non-existent. In fact, it's less than that.

As in the post above, these people are faceless and anonymous. Nobody on what you could call the 'operational' side of the NHS - the part that matters to the people who pay for it - knows who is running the show behind the scenes. Just before Christmas a few of the directors did the rounds of the hospital to spread the festive spirit. Nobody knew who any of them were. They turned up with faces like slapped arses and NOBODY FUCKING SAID MERRY CHRISTMAS! In fact on of them followed it up with a totally fictitious complaint that the ward smelled funny (elderly ward. Not uncommon to have UTIs, incontinence etc. Hardly a fucking surprise if there is occasionally a little whiff that is later dispelled).

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#280 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 06, 2015, 10:22:11 pm
And then of course its possible to go too far the other way - though this is the lesser of the two evils. A CEO of the Dudley Trust was on the radio this evening and was very eager to tell the pundit how she and her management team had been "rolling up their sleeves" to "pitch in" during this "difficult time" and had been pushing patients on trolleys up and down the corridor.

Now on one side I can see how this is a great thing to "lead from the front" and show the troops that we're all in this together etc etc etc  :sick:
But stop, let's think a minute. The CEO of the Dudley Group is paid £175k - 180k. And you're telling me that they spent half a day doing portering work? How is that an effective use of their time? Why not engage in positive, sensible leadership all year round rather than having an epi when winter hits and getting under everybody's feet trying to do a job that you have no fucking idea how to do.
Oh take this one to Ward K3 and give them to Nurse Stressed-to-Fuck? Could I just clarify where that is and who they are, please?

GCW

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#281 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 06, 2015, 10:43:33 pm
The media over the past 48 hours has been mental.

A&E has been super stretched since the start of December because GPs are closed over Christmas. Errr, what????

Make GPs do 5 A&E sessions a month. Errr, yeah but who covers my 5 sessions a month and who pays??

There aren't enough GP trainees to fill the posts. Oh, well all GP trainees should take a 31% cut in pay.

It's all about to fall over and become privatised.............


Quote from: GP Trainee
As a GP in training, I read with interest the recent articles detailing the return of ‘golden hellos’ to certain practices that can’t seem to recruit partners. These incentives are anything from £5,000-£20,000, should the partner remain for a requisite time period. Will anyone really be won over by an extra £1,250 approximately a year after tax? Ultimately, it’s going to be less of a bind, doing a couple of locum shifts. I’d see it as a nice bonus at best, but it’s hardly a golden ticket.

There is a shortage of GPs, which means there is always going to be some sort of work available. As more senior GPs take their retirement early in wake of the changes to our pension scheme (among other things), the number of vacancies will only increase and so there will be that much more choice for those left. That, in turn, means that those looking to recruit must compete against one another, and we’ll see more cases of golden handshakes, golden handcuffs and the like.

I don’t plan on applying for a partnership when I complete my training. There are several reasons for this. Firstly, I’d like to try working for different practices. This seems to be what the majority of newlyqualified GPs do. It makes good sense to know that the practice you’re committing to is where you want to remain. Secondly, there is more scope for working part-time, or to a particular working pattern which lets me put the children to bed at least a few nights a week. Thirdly, and this is true for a lot of doctors, my partner is also a doctor, albeit a hospital doctor. We must both fit our careers in, and as there are that many more jobs in primary than secondary care, we will be more governed geographically by her place of work than by mine. Fourthly, from what I gather there is almost no benefit, financially at least, in becoming a partner. Coupled with the additional pressures and workload this brings, it’s easy to see why most people aren’t jumping in with both feet.  And finally, there is the consideration of relocating overseas. Many of my friends have done this; most go for the experience but end up staying as they have found so much more job satisfaction and work-life balance. There was a time when talking about relocating overseas would give me a pang of guilt; the National Health Service is very close to my heart, and I think we should all be proud to work for the values it embodies.

Unfortunately, the NHS is no longer an ideal employer, and thinking of it in purely careerist terms, , that pang of guilt I feel about emigrating goes away quite quickly. When I substitute ‘NHS’ for, to pick a random example, Tesco, things start to sound pretty unappealing. For example, ’Tesco staff told no pay rise for three years’ sounds entirely unacceptable. Why, then, would people still work for such a company? Increasingly they are not. Doctors are leaving the NHS for greener pastures at all stages of their careers. A significant number of the people I qualified with have left medicine altogether, and not for glamorous careers elsewhere. I know of consultants leaving to become photographers, or personal trainers. And now, of course, there are a lot of doctors preparing to take early retirement.  Clearly, the NHS is no longer an attractive employer.

I’m not sure I know how to fix the situation. Recruit more doctors? Retain the ones we’ve got?

Certainly, any form of golden handshake would probably need to start on the first day of medical school to have any meaningful sort of effect. The military use it as a recruitment tool - perhaps the NHS needs to as well. Only when there are enough people staying in the NHS will there be enough people to recruit from. But only by changing the way the NHS treats its staff will people stay in the long term. Doctors are not volunteers and the NHS is no charity - most obviously, charities still provide their employees with pay rises.

If nothing happens to improve things then the situation will continue its downward spiral. Shortfalls will put more stress on those in post, who will in turn look to get out for their own sake, be it by going abroad, switching careers or retiring. With such uncertainty, it is not surprising that few people want to commit to partnerships.

Ultimately there may be few things that can be done to attract new partners, but I think any prospective surgery would need to be supportive and caring. It may sound twee, but getting on with the people you work with and the culture at your surgery make a big difference to any GP’s morale. People don’t mind hard work, provided that they feel valued. (That, and a big fat cash incentive.)

Dr Tim Cassford is a GPST1 in Chichester.

We are a high flying, well respected practice- forward thinking, on th LMC and CCG. One of our partners is going- can we recruit a new partner?  Can we f**k!  So where does that leave us?  Having to put masses of our own cash into the business?  No siree in this climate!  Sell out and move on?  Hmmmm.  Speak to me in a few weeks......
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 10:52:01 pm by GCW »

GCW

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#282 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 06, 2015, 11:10:10 pm
PS. 93% of GPs can't be wrong, eh?  Eh?   Eh?         Eh?                  Eh?


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#283 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 07:34:42 am
GCW, hmm 'no one wants to put money into the business'? Sounds like private enterprise to me, I thought that privatisation was a bad thing? :greed: ::)

So if it's already 'private', maybe it needs nationalisation, salaried GPs without the partners taking out the profit?

Ohh and as for a 31% cut? Luxury, for most of the work we do the amount we can recover has fallen >60% by government fiat.

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#284 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 08:11:24 am
That's the issue. It's a bizarre blend of small business that isn't private, can only work within tightly set criteria and struggles to move on. It's a model that won't work in five years.

But, that's the system as is. So unless it entirely collapses (banging that drum again) it's nigh on impossible to reform.

No one gets how cost efficient general practice is. To run it privately as is will cost five times as much (at least).  Go for it. I think you'll struggle.

As for pay, partners often don't earn more than salaried but may well have £100k liability in the ownership. Trainees don't earn what "qualified" GPs do. Do to recruit yo primary care in crisis, the best thing is to pay 2/3 of a hospital job.

Even you can see your point is illogical.

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#285 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 09:32:00 am
I have no doubt that the system is facing very real challenges and that as a system it will change radically over the next 10 - 20 years.

What makes this necessary change more difficult is the childish and ignorant political response as demonstrated by too many who comment on the subject (see this thread for legion examples).

For example 'privatisation' of the NHS was something like 4.9% under Labour and has increased to 6.1% under this government, but the representation of the 'privatisation' is very, very different i.e 'it's the Tories wot done it'.

You say to run general practice privately will cost more but it IS run privately, as you yourself say partners put money into the business and will get a return on that investment*: how would stripping out partner equity and return on equity make the system more expensive?

The issue seems to be one of relatively fixed supply with demand increasing in an unfixed manner.  That in any circumstances will lead to fracture and failure. 

What we need to do is restrict demand to those with a genuine need: you yourself recognise that many attendances are unnecessary, the only means of achieving this is to start charging for unnecessary attendances in both primary care and A&E.  The money raised will be marginal but it will drive a degree of change as to social mores re use of the system.

* even if not in direct earnings.

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#286 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 09:42:46 am
For example 'privatisation' of the NHS was something like 4.9% under Labour and has increased to 6.1% under this government, but the representation of the 'privatisation' is very, very different i.e 'it's the Tories wot done it'.

And what was it under the Tory government that preceeded Labour?  If it was 4.9% when Labour took over then such representations are perfectly justified.  If you could cite your sources I'll go and look this up.

(I don't really care who is responsible for the greatest amount of privatisation, its petty tit-for-tat bickering since both parties are as bad as each other, but I do think that its bad practice to cherry pick statistics and ignore others in order to support ones point of view).

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#287 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 09:59:32 am
The issue with privatisation and the NHS is that the 'system' needs to be integrated. For example, A&E crisis partly due to elderly patients not being able to be released due to reduced council care budgets, therefore no beds, therefore A&E clogged, therefore people waiting in ambulances, therefore ambulances in use so hour plus waits for 999's etc...

The £££ for treatment needs to go with the person not the facility... (almost like an insurance policy... more later..). if GP, Hospital, Social care/Rehab are all funded separately then there is little or no incentive for any integration between the various organisations. Another example, GP's under strain (financially or other), so people bumped onto A&E... many of GCW's examples (in previous posts) show the lack of integration. Even at a higher level, examples on C4 news last night where trust execs saying how in the past other hospitals would pitch in and help those in trouble - now there is less/no incentive for those from another trust to help..

This is my biggest beef with the privatisation - its fucking cack handed.... It needs a way to ensure that the transition between the various parts of the service are good and smooth. If you had one (decent) company running everything - overseeing stuff from top to bottom (an insurance company for example??) then I can see that working to a degree - but at the moment it appears to be all over the shop... Oh - is that what NHS trusts are supposed to be?

I dunno. Its depressing stuff... listening to R5 this morning and a A&E consultant saying how he saw a stroke victim who put off coming until 12 hours after his symptoms came on to try and save A&E pressure - and in the docs words "missed his window for recovery"... I've a wonky back and in an ideal world would like to get a proper scan and diagnosis - but no point even bothering my GP about this ~ 2 week appointment time at the moment. Yet MrsTT (Different city, different surgery) has just completed a 6 week hydrotherapy course for her (very much less) wonky back referred from her GP.. My parents both suffer from AMD and fortunately (postcode lottery) get the £££ jabs in the eye every month or two to treat it. Yet disabled brother in law is withering away (sadly literally) waiting for a delayed op to drain fluid on the brain... Sorry the last bit was a bit of a rant rather than anything constructive - I guess my point is that there seems no logic or consistency in what happens...

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#288 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 10:34:15 am
For example 'privatisation' of the NHS was something like 4.9% under Labour and has increased to 6.1% under this government, but the representation of the 'privatisation' is very, very different i.e 'it's the Tories wot done it'.

And what was it under the Tory government that preceeded Labour?  If it was 4.9% when Labour took over then such representations are perfectly justified.  If you could cite your sources I'll go and look this up.

(I don't really care who is responsible for the greatest amount of privatisation, its petty tit-for-tat bickering since both parties are as bad as each other, but I do think that its bad practice to cherry pick statistics and ignore others in order to support ones point of view).

From memory the 'siphoning off' was about 0% of the NHS budget under the Tories (yes there was contracting out of non care services, cleaning IT and the like) but the use of NHS buget for what would previously have been w/in the NHS care started following (from memory) the 2003 Act and increased after the 2007 Act.

I'm sure the Kings Fund did a paper on the Independent Sector Treatment Centres in 2006/7 showing the inefficiency resulting from the poor contracting process.

Fatdoc is probably well placed to comment on the transfer of elective surgery >2003

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#289 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 10:41:31 am
The issue with privatisation and the NHS is that the 'system' needs to be integrated. For example, A&E crisis partly due to elderly patients not being able to be released due to reduced council care budgets, therefore no beds, therefore A&E clogged, therefore people waiting in ambulances, therefore ambulances in use so hour plus waits for 999's etc...

The £££ for treatment needs to go with the person not the facility... (almost like an insurance policy... more later..). if GP, Hospital, Social care/Rehab are all funded separately then there is little or no incentive for any integration between the various organisations. Another example, GP's under strain (financially or other), so people bumped onto A&E... many of GCW's examples (in previous posts) show the lack of integration. Even at a higher level, examples on C4 news last night where trust execs saying how in the past other hospitals would pitch in and help those in trouble - now there is less/no incentive for those from another trust to help..

This is my biggest beef with the privatisation - its fucking cack handed.... It needs a way to ensure that the transition between the various parts of the service are good and smooth. If you had one (decent) company running everything - overseeing stuff from top to bottom (an insurance company for example??) then I can see that working to a degree - but at the moment it appears to be all over the shop... Oh - is that what NHS trusts are supposed to be?

I dunno. Its depressing stuff... listening to R5 this morning and a A&E consultant saying how he saw a stroke victim who put off coming until 12 hours after his symptoms came on to try and save A&E pressure - and in the docs words "missed his window for recovery"... I've a wonky back and in an ideal world would like to get a proper scan and diagnosis - but no point even bothering my GP about this ~ 2 week appointment time at the moment. Yet MrsTT (Different city, different surgery) has just completed a 6 week hydrotherapy course for her (very much less) wonky back referred from her GP.. My parents both suffer from AMD and fortunately (postcode lottery) get the £££ jabs in the eye every month or two to treat it. Yet disabled brother in law is withering away (sadly literally) waiting for a delayed op to drain fluid on the brain... Sorry the last bit was a bit of a rant rather than anything constructive - I guess my point is that there seems no logic or consistency in what happens...

In respect of integretation (which is imissible with fragmented privatisation) I entirely agree: generally I am against the widespread use of private services within the NHS as generally the NHS can do things better and more efficiently as part of larger organisation not driven by profit.  The most obvious area where this fails is the GP sector. 

Large GP practices in towns and citys are probably quite profirable if well run but smaller practices in rural areas will be probably on the margins of profitability if care is to be adequate. 

As such if there's a 'non profit distributing group' of practices the large profitable urban centre can cross subsidise the unprofitable rural centre and provide better services, greater penetration and more robust resilience.

Although I can imagine that nationalisation of GOP care might not go down too well with the well off GPs (I accept some might not fall into this description).

Of course we need to look at social care and 'pathways' but these are incredibly complex and difficult relationships~; what is not complex or difficult is to say to twats who turn up to A&E without any good cause is 'that'll be £150.00 please' (not the NHS recovers almost <£600 from the liable insurer if someone turns up in A&E following a road traffic collision).

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#290 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 11:00:11 am
For example 'privatisation' of the NHS was something like 4.9% under Labour and has increased to 6.1% under this government, but the representation of the 'privatisation' is very, very different i.e 'it's the Tories wot done it'.

And what was it under the Tory government that preceeded Labour?  If it was 4.9% when Labour took over then such representations are perfectly justified.  If you could cite your sources I'll go and look this up.

(I don't really care who is responsible for the greatest amount of privatisation, its petty tit-for-tat bickering since both parties are as bad as each other, but I do think that its bad practice to cherry pick statistics and ignore others in order to support ones point of view).

From memory the 'siphoning off' was about 0% of the NHS budget under the Tories (yes there was contracting out of non care services, cleaning IT and the like) but the use of NHS buget for what would previously have been w/in the NHS care started following (from memory) the 2003 Act and increased after the 2007 Act.

I'm sure the Kings Fund did a paper on the Independent Sector Treatment Centres in 2006/7 showing the inefficiency resulting from the poor contracting process.

Fatdoc is probably well placed to comment on the transfer of elective surgery >2003

I'm expected to trust your alcohol abused memory!   :slap:


Only joking, but it would be interesting, some might say vital, to know these figures and even more importantly how they are derived (i.e. are they directly comparable) in order to understand the broader picture of which party is responsible for what that is being insinuated.

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#291 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 11:14:15 am
My memory for politics and other random stuff is frighteningly good, it's stuff like who people are or what I did when that's awful and has nothing to do with  :alky:

I would imagine there would be so much variation in the collection of stats and the protocols re aggregation & etc that precise comparison would be impossible (whether by design or otherwise).

http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/topics/nhs-reform/mythbusters/health-privatisation

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#292 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 11:52:37 am
You say to run general practice privately will cost more but it IS run privately, as you yourself say partners put money into the business and will get a return on that investment*: how would stripping out partner equity and return on equity make the system more expensive?

The current system costs £50 odd quid per patient per year for core work, for infinite access to a GP.  It's a flat rate, plus bits of performance related pay on top.  A single private GP appointment at our local private provider is £80, and that doesn't include tests or prescription.  If a private provider ran the system, there is no way they could maintain this service (which is what is happening in the current system) and make a profit.

Large GP practices in towns and citys are probably quite profirable if well run but smaller practices in rural areas will be probably on the margins of profitability if care is to be adequate. 

We are talking about an average sized practice having a turnover of £1.5 million if that - it's small fry stuff.  A lot of rural practices receive an addition funding to support them - this is now being pulled and a LOT of these guys will make a loss very soon and thus close.  Virgin won't touch these with a stick.

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#293 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 11:59:54 am
You say to run general practice privately will cost more but it IS run privately, as you yourself say partners put money into the business and will get a return on that investment*: how would stripping out partner equity and return on equity make the system more expensive?

The current system costs £50 odd quid per patient per year for core work, for infinite access to a GP.  It's a flat rate, plus bits of performance related pay on top.  A single private GP appointment at our local private provider is £80, and that doesn't include tests or prescription.  If a private provider ran the system, there is no way they could maintain this service (which is what is happening in the current system) and make a profit.

Large GP practices in towns and citys are probably quite profirable if well run but smaller practices in rural areas will be probably on the margins of profitability if care is to be adequate. 

We are talking about an average sized practice having a turnover of £1.5 million if that - it's small fry stuff.  A lot of rural practices receive an addition funding to support them - this is now being pulled and a LOT of these guys will make a loss very soon and thus close.  Virgin won't touch these with a stick.

You seem to be missing the point, your practice is a private practice: just a practice which doesn't charge the patients for routine work (I am sure your practice charges for lots of other things, letters to lawyers, reports for employers and the like).

BTW I'm not arguing that there should be wholesale or widespread privatisation of the NHS or in healthcare, merely pointing out that the hysteria on this subject (i.e. privatisation rather than the wider problems within the NHS, re-organisation and so on) is ignorant at best or malign at worst.

The reason why Virgin / Bupa won't touch small rural practices is that they're loss making, hence the need for either significant subsidy or group cross subsidy from more profitable practices which would require the current private GP practices to be brought within the ownership of the state.

Nye talked of 'stuffing the doctors mouths with gold' perhaps those on the left would like to see the GP practices owned by the partners acuired by the state with no compensation to the partners?

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#294 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 12:09:36 pm
This comes down to what I've been saying for years - the whole idea is to stop doctors being independent contractors, and to make everyone a salaried employee by forcing the system to fail.  Then it can be taken over by private providers - but it will mean we all have to pay for the care in one way or another (not via NI) in addition to what we now pay, and the cost to the government to run it will skyrocket.

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#295 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 12:46:39 pm
This comes down to what I've been saying for years - the whole idea is to stop doctors being independent contractors, and to make everyone a salaried employee by forcing the system to fail.  Then it can be taken over by private providers - but it will mean we all have to pay for the care in one way or another (not via NI) in addition to what we now pay, and the cost to the government to run it will skyrocket.

Sorry but that's tin foil hat style crap.

Why would the NHS having driven all GP's to be centrally contracted on say a scale of £80-100k (insert more realistic numbers I'm just guessing) and owning the estate, having centralised HR & IT systems then pay more for a profit making (if not distributing provider) provider?


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#296 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 01:12:25 pm
because they only commit to paying the provider for the length and targets of the contract, with the provider then being responsible for sorting out redundancies which result from reductions in funding?

there must be some reason

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#297 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 01:14:43 pm
Because I don't think they realise how much more it will cost.

The bottom line is this:  The NHS cannot remain free at the point of access in the current world of demand.  To continue, it will have to be paid for like other countries, insurance or whatever.  It is political suicide to privatise the whole thing, so the only way forward is to have a reason to do it - ie the system fails.

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#298 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 01:24:00 pm
because they only commit to paying the provider for the length and targets of the contract, with the provider then being responsible for sorting out redundancies which result from reductions in funding?

there must be some reason

Hmm, let me put my business hat on . . . no that doesn't make sense businesses, let me try myu business hat . . . no still no.

Redundancies don't arise due to a lack of funding they arise when the job function is no longer required.

The reason why GCW's suggestion doesn't make sense is that it's bollocks.

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#299 Re: The end of the NHS.
January 07, 2015, 01:29:06 pm

Redundancies don't arise due to a lack of funding they arise when the job function is no longer required.


lol

 

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