[Fiend]

Topic for the likes of tomtom and shark and other fans of repeated failure eventually leading to success...

What's it like long-term projecteering?
How do you manage the repeated failure / backwards days?
What sort of motivation do you have to sustain it? (I'm assuming some sort of awesomeness-of-problem motivation, I'm not interested in grade-chasing toss)
What do you consider really long-term projecteering? Is there such a thing as too long?

The longest I've done is 11 hours / 5 sessions on a boulder problem, and errr, 12+ hours / 8+ sessions on a route, both were the hardest things I've worked but also I really didn't get inspired to do it that often. I think that's partly because it's really hard to find inspiring local stuff around the right level, but also because there is so much great climbing around to explore, I struggle to stick to one thing and miss out on other stuff. I reckon I could do it once a year maybe, so I'm interested in how serial projecteers do it....

(genuine topic btw as if I need to say that  )

[tomtom]

That's a really good set of questions Fiend.. It requires some thought and a decent answer.. Will ruminate and answer tomorrow.. Good topic.

[TobyD]

What's it like long-term projecteering?
How do you manage the repeated failure / backwards days?
What sort of motivation do you have to sustain it?
What do you consider really long-term projecteering?
Is there such a thing as too long?

In order:
* satisfying, in a different way to onsighting or quick ticks expect it to be the same, and you'll get frustrated / bored / angry
* There is no such thing as failure, only a learning experience. Even doing a worse link in bad conditions can be progress.
* pick a route YOU like. Be picky about the holds and movement, you'll be doing them a lot.
* The last two just depend on you really. For some people more than a weekend is long term and stressful, for others, training for two years to attain a level to attempt the route is not out of the question.
Or i could be juvenile and say that you can never have too much length, and pretend that I don't find that pretty funny.

[rodma]

There's no such thing as too long imho.

So long as you feel/believe that you are capable of doing all of the moves and can at least kind of hold the holds/positions then its pretty easy to stay positive.

I'm now onto year 12 on one of my projects (and no, it's not a grade chasing one) and i'm still convinced that i'll do it.

[moose]

For me, the key to coping with the years of failure is viewing it as "money in the bank". 

Convince yourself that even the most wretched visits had a positive effect.  Falling off those moves was just a "limit" training session that will make you that little bit stronger or wiser for next time. 

Any seeming regression is just a temporary blip and the tick just awaits the inevitable coincidence of mood, form and conditions.

[Bonjoy]

Personally I think that the siege mentality might be the quickest way to get up a given project, but it seems to me to be counterproductive for your overall climbing. Everyone has come across sport climbers who siege a route for literally years, complete it and then move onto the next siege. Over a period of ten years they might put in a huge number of sessions and a vast amount of effort (not least mental) and if lucky walk away with a handful of successful ascents. I’ve always thought that had they spent the same amount of effort pursuing goals achievable in a few sessions they would have achieved the same upper level anyway, probably ticked the same few routes in less sessions and done a whole lot of other enjoyable climbing along the way. I don’t think failing on the same set of moves over and over again makes for great training. By trying to be the hare the sieger ends up being the tortoise, or the other way round  .

[petejh]

  Personally I enjoy a pyramid type progression for getting lots of good routes done at less than your top level, in a build up to one route at a personal top level. Followed by dropping back down to start building up once again at a slightly harder level. Each to their own though obviously. There's a certain obsessive comfort to be gained from having a long term proj, also works well for the time-constrained.

[rodma]

I think the key is not to spend all of the time spent outside trying the same thing to the exclusivity of everything else. my 12 year siege has not really gotten in the way of getting up other things, visiting other venues etc.

agree that hangdogging the same bloody sport route year in year out, is a complete and utter waste of time. projecting when sport climbing is so time intensive anyway compared to bouldering.

[rodma]

  Personally I enjoy a pyramid type progression for getting lots of good routes done at less than your top level, in a build up to one route at a personal top level. Followed by dropping back down to start building up once again at a slightly harder level. Each to their own though obviously. There's a certain obsessive comfort to be gained from having a long term proj, also works well for the time-constrained.

my problem with calculating the correct pyramid is not knowing how many more 8a+s do i need to do in order to manage my 7c project? maybe i need to be climbing 8b first, i just don't know

[andy_e]

I never thought of it like that before, good thoughts Bonjoy.

I had ten sessions on Demon Wall Roof and probably eight on the Keel before I did either of them (to break into a new grade). I always wanted to climb them but I didn't apply myself religiously to them. If I wasn't feeling great when arriving at the crag, I'd go and get some mileage in elsewhere. My current long-term projects are on hold this weekend (even though I could spend both days on them if I wanted) because I'm keen to finally get a dry session in at Guisecliff (and could probably pop in on the way back to dispatch if conditions allow...). Don't get too drawn into trying it every session in other words.

[Fiend]

Hare with a tortoises head or vice versa?

[Nibile]

What's it like long-term projecteering?
How do you manage the repeated failure / backwards days?
What sort of motivation do you have to sustain it? (I'm assuming some sort of awesomeness-of-problem motivation, I'm not interested in grade-chasing toss)
What do you consider really long-term projecteering? Is there such a thing as too long?

Long time projecting for me has always been easy, the lack of talent made me immediately realize I had to fight hard for my goals. If you put that together with a grade chasing attitude, there you go!
Sometimes it's been the line, but most time just the difficulty.
As long as you enjoy the hell that long time projecting is, there's no thing as too long.

The longest I've been on a project is probably more than 40 sessions (I stopped counting) and 150+ tries in every possible condition to maintain the feel. Despite getting to the last hold, still no topout!
Tried it again last Saturday, never felt so strong on it, up to the penultimate hold on every go despite skin, age, and basically having quit.

[SA Chris]

I don't think I've ever seiged a problem. I've had problems I've worked on an off for years, but as part of a circuit, have a few goes on them, make some progress or not, move on. I think I did pebble wall after trying it on and off for 2 1/2 after seeing Streaky do it on my first ever visit to Almscliff. I have seiged a couple of sport routes in the past, and while I enjoyed doing it I found it not as satisfying as doing a larger volume of routes at a lower grade, but taking less time on them; either flash, quick redpoint or a few redpoint attempts/

I think Bonjoy is on the money; I have tried to convince some friends of this, but they seem to like focussing all their energy and time on a single route until they succeed, and then chooisng another a couple of grades harder and moving on. Each to their own I guess.

[Fiend]

* pick a route YOU like. Be picky about the holds and movement, you'll be doing them a lot.

This is interesting, it's the main thing that got me into the two long term projects that I did. It's also one of the main things that makes it hard for me to find projects, because they need to have some key features to feel worth the effort and like progress is possible, i.e. realistically doable at some point, not morpho, not dependent on massive cranks, complex enough to be able to refine beta, not skin trashing, reliable conditions, not dependent on a spotter, oh and inspiring and interesting too...

Can people mention how long they project stuff like andi_e did, it puts it in perspective, andi I like your "on/off" occasional trying concept.

[andy_e]

Currently 3 years in to one long-term problem and still falling off the same move. Another long-term problem I haven't been on for well over a year. Don't do this. I'll have to have a lengthy re-acquaintance session now.

[Luke Owens]

I find failure a little hard to deal with sometimes but also hard to define, for example I had a local sport project that took 10 redpoints over about 6 sessions to complete. The feeling of sending it was amazing and well worth the effort in the end. While I was working it I found the failure of doing the route pretty easy to deal with as it was at a very local crag.

On the other hand if I go further away for the day and try redpointing something hard in a session and don't manage it I then start thinking "I should of tried something else" "I've wasted my time on that" probably due to the fact I don't get to visit further away crags as often.

On the other hand I've never had a boulder project and always found I'll try something a few times and if it feels out of reach I'll try something else and don't get hung up on it. I get the buzz from dropping my grade and doing a load of problems at an area I've never been too.

So for me, projecting locally I can handle. Going further afield I prefer climbing stuff I can do in a session.

[petejh]

my problem with calculating the correct pyramid is not knowing how many more 8a+s do i need to do in order to manage my 7c project? maybe i need to be climbing 8b first, i just don't know

Yeah because the pyramid approach is obviously an exact scientific calculation so you need to get it right   

Or, maybe climbing lots of slightly easier routes/probs in the same or similar style to your proj and slowly buidling the difficulty would be sensible, allow for lots of motivation-enhancing mileage/stave off stagnation and produce a quicker success on the long-term goal. Call me crazy.

[rodma]

my problem with calculating the correct pyramid is not knowing how many more 8a+s do i need to do in order to manage my 7c project? maybe i need to be climbing 8b first, i just don't know

Yeah because the pyramid approach is obviously an exact scientific calculation so you need to get it right   

Or, maybe climbing lots of slightly easier routes/probs in the same or similar style to your proj and slowly buidling the difficulty would be sensible, allow for lots of motivation-enhancing mileage/stave off stagnation and produce a quicker success on the long-term goal. Call me crazy.

You're Crazy 

my siege is La Balance at Cuvier and to be honest, the failure is almost all head based now. I've even managed to fail with one hand on top of the boulder whilst stepping up to top out. On paper, most people who know me would expect that I'd have no real issues with it (due to having done so much in a similar style), but it still eludes me and is the last problem on that boulder, that I haven't done (I do not count the link ups and sit starts as problems). It still remains at the top of my tick list, cos I'm a sad completist and I don't really mind failing. I'll probably :cry: if/when i top it out, which i certainly haven't ever done on anything else.

[petejh]

I guess I'm thinking more about 'local' routes/probs rather than things you try on trips (unless you're local to font?). Although it hasn't happened to me yet I can fully imagine getting hooked on something I've tried abroad and trying it occasionally along with other stuff on trips over a number of years. Not quite the same thing as projecting something at the local crag though.

[tc]

The day I finally did Out of My Tree, after about four weeks of attempts and God knows how much money spent on petrol for the commute from Sheffield, I met up with a couple of mates at Stoney afterwards for a celebratory bag of chips (rock & roll lifestyle, eh?). That day they had driven over from Merseyside and done Dead Banana Crack, Bitter Fingers, Wee Doris and Scoop Wall. I reckon they had the better day, in fact I'm sure they did.

[rodma]

I guess I'm thinking more about 'local' routes/probs rather than things you try on trips (unless you're local to font?). Although it hasn't happened to me yet I can fully imagine getting hooked on something I've tried abroad and trying it occasionally along with other stuff on trips over a number of years. Not quite the same thing as projecting something at the local crag though.

I live in edinburgh so have no local projects.

Seriously though, i must have had at least 30 good days on that problem, none of them spent as just a few tries either.

[Pitcairn]

  Personally I enjoy a pyramid type progression for getting lots of good routes done at less than your top level, in a build up to one route at a personal top level. Followed by dropping back down to start building up once again at a slightly harder level. Each to their own though obviously. There's a certain obsessive comfort to be gained from having a long term proj, also works well for the time-constrained.

I agree with this approach.  Ive had route projects in the past that took 10+ visits over a year or 2 but I always did other routes along the way to keep up the variety.  It makes sense for your long term project to be hard and most likely at a higher grade than youve climbed before.  This doesnt have to mean grade chasing its just pushing your personal level.  And anyway, to remain motivated over a very long period the route or problem has to be fun to work on and climb.  I havent had a huge amount of time to climb in the last 2 years and my level has dropped from what it was 3-4 years ago but I still have long-term projects that I know I will get back to when the time is right.  For me this provides focus, motivation and purpose which is good to have.

[tj]

I seiged the Keel to get it done (at least 15 sessions, possibily up 20), and whilst it was massively satisfying at the time, I couldn't/wouldn't do that again now. At the time, it was 2-3 grades harder than anything else I'd done, and for whatever reason, I was just really inspired to climb it. I could take satisfaction out of the smallest amount of progress (which was just as well...).

And whilst I managed a couple of 7B+s that season also, as others have pointed out, it doesn't do much for your ability as a climber overall. The ego can have a hard time flailing on 'easy' problems because your skill-set isn't well-rounded.

I get little satisfaction out of protracted projects now- more than 5 sessions (certainly once approaching double figures) and I find the overwhelming feeling on topping out is one of relief, rather than satisfaction. This could be more if it's something I only get to try infrequently, though.

At the end of the day it's all personal, different strokes for different folks n'all...

[tomtom]

Topic for the likes of tomtom and shark and other fans of repeated failure eventually leading to success...

What's it like long-term projecteering?
How do you manage the repeated failure / backwards days?
What sort of motivation do you have to sustain it? (I'm assuming some sort of awesomeness-of-problem motivation, I'm not interested in grade-chasing toss)
What do you consider really long-term projecteering? Is there such a thing as too long?

This I find really interesting. I have the attention span of a hyperactive goldfish. I expect I'll go and look at several web pages whilst composing this reply TommyZtone commented at the Cliff the other day that my bouldering strategy was a bit like the nightclub pulling strategy - where you go round trying as many as possible and eventually someone says yes So I'm always surprised at how I can get stuck into projects (cant figure out how I managed to maintain interest to do a PhD!).

My main sieges have been: (in chronological order) - numbers of sessions are where I have gone specifically to try that problem - rather than just having a tickle while doing other stuff..

Dolphin Belly Slap (c.5-8 sessions)
Demon Wall Roof (c.5-8 sessions)
Deliverance (c.6 or more sessions maybe 10 - Given up now..)
Underhand (c.10 sessions)
That V6 (I think V7) low traverse at Helsby - name eludes me.. (5-8 sessions)
The Keel... 20?
West Side Story... probably 10 ish and ongoing

I think AndY_e mentioned that it has to be the right project - for me this is vital and there are several criteria.

1. It has to be a line, or set of movements and possibly a grade (though this is secondary) that inspires me - something that I WANT to get done.
2. It has to be attainable.. All of the above problems have drawn me in.. I've tried them - or part of them - and thought "Damn, that feels like it would go". Some problems have a nasty tiny bastard crimp - or a mono - or the need to lock off on one arm etc.. and I think to myself - thats something I just wont be able to do. In effect there have to be no obvious stone walls to progress (of course these may emerge!). Most of the above problems are probably more down to technique and general climbing strength rather than what I might call specialist strenght (mono - one armer etc..).
3. Steady progress. Most of these (like the Keel and Underhand) gave me steady - almost linear progress on each session. There were times when I went backwards - but this was generally due to conditions, strength, skin etc.. I gave up on Deliverance as it became clear I just needed to be able to jump higher (despite my lank I'm at the base of the curve when it comes to relative height I can jump) and I got bored to training to jump higher (I didnt think it would really help any of my other climbing!).

What's it like long-term projecteering?

Its good. There are several aspects I like about it. These include the disappointment funnily enough.. sometimes it feels like a good leveller to get flattened by a problem - reminds me of what a mere ant in the world I am.. Success is cool - as for me the satisfaction is much more long lasting and slow release (if you like) than a quick and unexpected send.. It can be lonely - boring - feel a bit like going to the gym at times! But as Moose said, you have to tell yourself that its all mileage - all practice under the belt. Trying the Keel in the snow was in some ways daft - as I was never going to be able to top the problem out should I do it, but it did give me extra exercise/muscle memory for the problem - as well as experience of doing it in bad conditions which gave me confidence to pull on in better conditions (i.e. marginal moves/holds became less marginal).

How do you manage the repeated failure / backwards days?

There are some visits when you wonder why you are bothering. Most of the backwards days you can feel are for a reason e.g. tired, ill, just not pulling as hard. Whats really interesting to me is if you do the same warm up and problem 5-10 sessions in a row, you realise just how variable your personal performance is. Some days the flow is there, other days its snatch snatch snatch at everything. Sometimes (for me) the core is just like a rock - others its weak as anything. This is all good, and you have to learn to recognise when you're not on form and to maybe give up going for the big attempt that day, but get some mileage in on the sections you can do... in effect practice whats working for you that day. Only once on the Keel did I warm up, pull on and was utter utter shite. I just packed up and went home.

What sort of motivation do you have to sustain it? (I'm assuming some sort of awesomeness-of-problem motivation, I'm not interested in grade-chasing toss)

Ultimately its about the movement - or the awesomeness of it as you put it.. but this also involves grade chasing to a degree - as the harder problems will usually have a higher grade! Grades - like reputations are usually there for some reason.. The grade can also be motivation to keep trying things and thats not always a bad thing.. Though I didnt know I'd done my first 7 until a couple of months later when I checked in the guide! The motivation for me is really quite personal and hard to define - it is about the look of the problem, how it climbs, what sort of relationship I establish with it..

What do you consider really long-term projecteering? Is there such a thing as too long?

I dont know! Until I give up I guess

  Personally I enjoy a pyramid type progression for getting lots of good routes done at less than your top level, in a build up to one route at a personal top level. Followed by dropping back down to start building up once again at a slightly harder level.

This is interesting.. I agree that makes sense - but I dont do this! Looking at my grades, my pyramid has distinctly concave sides   1 7C, 2 7B+, 2 7B, 8-10 7A+, 10+ 7A... Maybe this is more the case for routes than for problems? (possibly down to an endurance issue?)

I also have 'project days' and 'non project days'... I can get obsessed by projects - and want to session them again and again and again... but there are also days when I want to go somewhere else and try something new. This is also important to refresh your confidence (in climbing in general!) when you're bogged down in a problem. Climbing is about having fun and getting the satisfaction from acheiving goals and I guess this reflects that..

[Kingy]

Here are the words on ondrawad on the matter, from a 9b interview (full interview here: http://novebi.ning.com/profiles/blogs/two-friends-for-a-9b-adam-ondra-la-dura-dura-interview)

What have you learned by climbing La Dura Dura that you think you could share with any climber trying to redpoint an important project and maybe progressing to their next grade?
That after two weeks of working the same route, it is very difficult to make further progress. That was quite suprising to me. The 3rd and 4th weeks on La Dura Dura were completely pointless, I was climbing one level below and no matter how efficiently I climbed, I couldn’t and didn’t progress. If you don’t feel close after two or three weeks, better to give up for a while, train specifically for it and get back on it. Body will forget how to move in the route, but in a couple of days it is back.  Climbing a certain grade within 10 days of work doesn’t mean that you would climb another level if you worked for a year.

Seems like after 2/3 weeks of effort, your best bet is to sack it back to training and get stronger