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No longer taboo to ask for proof ? (Read 86611 times)

Stubbs

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#50 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 09:38:35 pm
Did you forget the winky smiley face Shark?

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#51 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 09:49:02 pm
Did you forget the winky smiley face Shark?

Whoops ! Good point...

Sorry Sasquatch  ;)




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#52 No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 10:24:18 pm
Did you forget the winky smiley face Shark?

I thought it was self referential ;)

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#53 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 11:41:49 pm
My point Jon is that we are climbers not machines. If a person does not want to or for some reason didnt video himself doing something he does not need to, historical significance or no, and who the fuck do guidebook writers think they are to say if its not videoed i wont put it in? You write a guidebook thats it, its not legislature. Of course it's best if its filmed but that doesn't mean that he hasn't done it if he doesn't film it. People mostly have a pretty good idea who's bullshitting anyway.

I feel like I've got to pick up on that. That kind of comment belies a belief that guide writers must think they're somehow more important or some authority on what's legitimate and what's not. This is bullshit. In my experience of it it isn't that at all, it's just a shit long hard slog of a job with close to zero support, akin to trying to herd cats for information and photos. Everyone wants good guidebooks. Nobody except for a few obsessive perverts want to write them, especially for free.
All guide writers do is collate info from as many sources as possible and present it accurately and in an attractive format. Do you want to see information about what climbing is available in an area or don't you? If so, what's your solution for how information is presented - should it be researched or should everything just be thrown on the page as is?  Do you think guides should be an accurate record or not? Personally I'm starting to think that climbing would be actually be better off without any records of first ascents because they've started to mean too much to people. First equipper or first person to negotiate access sure, first ascent? - fuck 'em half of them are just glory-hunting pricks anyway  ;)

'Who the fuck do guide writers think they are..'  -  Who the fuck do egotistical, lying pricks think they are, especially ones blagging free gear and other perks while making themselves out to be great leading figures of climbing and receiving plaudits for their claims. Your ire could be better directed.
If any guide writer demanded video proof of one ascent by a climber who's got a track-record of legit history , they'd should quite rightly be told to do one. Likewise if any climber thinks they can build up a reputation using unsubstantiated claims of a cataloque of ascents and expect people to take them seriously they're living in fantasy land - unfortunately that's exactly what's happened in climbing. I find it almost offensive to my intellect to be expected to automatically believe someone doing something if they were doing it for anything more than just the pure love of the activity - i.e. as soon as the slightest bit of self-publicity or sponsorship are involved. Especially in the narcissist-filled world of climbing.

Quote
People mostly have a pretty good idea who's bullshitting anyway.
They do don't they. And 100% of the time they turn out to be the ones who don't have any video evidence. See a way to help with the filtering-out process here?  :-\

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#54 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 05, 2013, 11:52:08 am
Amen to that, well put.

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#55 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 05, 2013, 12:37:17 pm
Well, a huge amount of testosterone flying around, and a few egotistical comments.

Video should be a personal choice, although the way that modern media had changed over the last handful of years might dictate other wise.  For me this isn't proof based - its just more interesting that looking at pictures on the Internet (that's what magazines and galleries are for).

I've recently  'got into' making videos of problems and areas, and on the whole it's quite good fun although my laptop doesn't think so.  It does distract from the act of ascending to an extent, or attempting to ascend but in the upper grades it seems that this is something you have to now put up with, which is a bit of a shame.

Having been on the receiving end a couple of months back, I thought long and hard about video etc.  I've never been concerend about it, but now quite liking watching the end result.  There is a place for it, although we really shouldn't let media/need for proof /appeasing guidbook writers dictate what we do all of the time.  Unless you are super keen to film, just now and again should be enough, otherwise we'll all be bouldering in a rather clinical manner.







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#56 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 05, 2013, 12:47:23 pm
BTW, aptly, I only came on to sell my camera - check out the for sale bit.

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#57 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 05, 2013, 09:09:46 pm
Well, a huge amount of testosterone flying around, and a few egotistical comments.
I don't see them?

Quote
Video should be a personal choice, although the way that modern media had changed over the last handful of years might dictate other wise.  For me this isn't proof based - its just more interesting that looking at pictures on the Internet (that's what magazines and galleries are for).
Don't quite follow your second sentence but regards your first: Video 'is' a personal choice, not 'should be a personal choice' - who's forcing you to video anything..? In fact, who's forcing you to report anything?
But as soon as that dreaded word 'significance' enters the equation video is a must if you're: a lone wolf, with no credible track record of proof, and who wants to be believed. Even more so if you're trying to sell yourself as some sort of sponsored climber. To think anything else is to think that other people are idiots who should believe anything they're told without questioning it. Do you think I should automatically believe everything you say? If so why? If you don't care that's fine but why, in that case, would you publicise anything if you don't care? I'd suggest nearly all of us appreciate respect from other people, but most people aren't auto-believing idiots. At least not for ever.

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I've recently  'got into' making videos of problems and areas, and on the whole it's quite good fun although my laptop doesn't think so.  It does distract from the act of ascending to an extent, or attempting to ascend but in the upper grades it seems that this is something you have to now put up with, which is a bit of a shame.
You don't have to put up with it, see above. Unless you don't have a track record and care about being believed by others. In which case you have to put up with it. What could be simpler than pressing play on a DSLR or compact?

Quote
There is a place for it, although we really shouldn't let media/need for proof /appeasing guidbook writers dictate what we do all of the time.  Unless you are super keen to film, just now and again should be enough, otherwise we'll all be bouldering in a rather clinical manner.
That's exactly what is being suggested - a few unedited vids of hard ascents is all that's required. Robins, Caff, Dyer the list goes on etc. don't require it because everyone's seen them climb hard shit. And finally - it's not about appeasing guide writers, that's just a straw man to attempt to deflect the focus onto guide-writers instead of where it belongs - on bullshitting climbers. If anything it's about appeasing your own need for recognition isn't it - otherwise why not just go out and boulder and not report anything, or report back and don't care when no-one believes you. Guide writers are in the difficult position of trying to be neutral reporters of facts, which can be hard when all the alarm bells ring that someone has been bullshitting.

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#58 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 06, 2013, 09:23:22 am
Not quite sure who you are Pete, but you seem to have a bee in your bonnet?

That was my view - you seem to have over analysed it.


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#59 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 06, 2013, 09:41:00 am
It doesn't matter who I am, my points are valid ones in many people's opinion.

No bee. And I don't wear a bonnet.

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#60 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 06, 2013, 10:47:31 am
No worries Mr Harrison.  Just thought you might put a name forward to justify your views. 

See you at the crag with my camcorder no doubt.

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#61 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 06, 2013, 09:32:34 pm
You now have my name, which anyone who could be arsed can easily find out. But opinions stand up or fall down on their own merit, not on who posted them. So I don't understand your urge to know my name and use it in the thread?

Getting back to the topic of the thread title - you appear to believe that it should be taboo for people to ask you for proof though? I mean, going off this message that you sent to a mutual friend: 'Hey .... - you might want to tell Pete Harrison to reel it in. At the moment I'm vying for a kick in the teeth for the cunt. I think he's trying to call me a bullshitter.'
You're not Lance Armstrong in disguise are you? That's quite an over-reaction to, at most, implied criticism. Re-read my posts above and you'll not find me calling you a bullshitter anywhere, my points were all aimed at nobody in particular. Threatening to 'kick the teeth in' of someone - who hasn't even said anything directly about you - is pathetic and makes you look dubious.

...Most people have credibility. The real foundation is the “lone wolf” i.e. those who do all their hardest ascents on their tod. Now every “lone wolf” is not a liar, far from it, but obviously all liars are “lone wolves” (since they never have witnesses), hence there is often a whiff of suspicion of this type of character regardless of integrity – evidence of this on this thread. Anyone who fits this profile who didn’t realise that this is how it works is naïve at best. I guess the point is that there is now no need to be a “lone wolf” since anyone with £20 and a pocket can take a portable unimpeachable witness to every crag - unlike the old days. Although obviously only if you care.
Couldn't agree more. It's not rocket science - if you care about what people think and you don't have a track record of witness or vids, then it's obvious that you need to film yourself doing 8B's. If you don't care, expect people to have doubts about claims of 8B ascents; which is ok because you don't care right. It isn't a bouldering-specific vendetta, there are liars in all sports who get weeded out eventually.

No worries Mr Harrison.  Just thought you might put a name forward to justify your views. 
See you at the crag with my camcorder no doubt.
I wonder, were you planning on videoing yourself kicking my teeth in to prove you did it?   :)


Log pile?

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#62 No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 06, 2013, 10:05:32 pm
Due to the missus insisting on watching "Dancing on ice" on the Freeview +, I finally got around to ploughing through this thread...

Oh boy.

Tad personal there lads, for a public forum.

Seems unnecessary.

There also seems to be a lot of crossed threads and missunderstandings, at least, I read it that way.

Being a punter, who's only first ascent was the loft ladder I installed in my last house, I can honestly say I've never given a thought to who made the first ascent anyway.

Normally, I'd have just ignored the thread (probably should have done so), but; it's a shame to see this on UKB.

Rant over.

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#63 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 06, 2013, 10:26:56 pm
Finally something controversial enough to make me want to post again. Matt this is serious stuff on here now mate we can't have any joviality. Now lets have it out of you....... have you got video evidence of you climbing that loft ladder or any credible witnesses   :popcorn:

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#64 No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 06, 2013, 10:46:30 pm
Daughter number one was there.

But , she was only three at the time...

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#65 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 06, 2013, 10:56:32 pm
Well i'm calling you out then mate sorry but i'm doing a guidebook to your old house and I don't feel it can go to print on the thin shred of evidence you have provided so far. I've got no background on you doing any DIY or utilising said construction thereafter.

this post is satirical

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#66 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 06, 2013, 11:27:58 pm
Peter you seem to have shortened my statement to "who the fuck do guidebook writers think they are". Nice one, that wasn't what I wrote, it was a part of what I wrote that was written around further mumblings of a guidebook writer asking for video evidence. Nowhere did i say or imply that guidebook writing was easy, that they made bags of cash etc so please dont go on a lengthy treatise about nothing at my expense. My only problem with all this is the video statements made by people, I don't climb at anywhere near a significant level to be affected, so I'm giving my two penneth as a normal guy who for one doesn't like to be videoed except maybe in the bedroom. People seem to be saying a lot that it's fine all you do is take a camera out and press record. I'm sure it is as easy as that but it's the demand that makes me uncomfortable. Everything else everyone seems to be in agreement with.
For what it's wurth Peter I don't think yours and Chris' mutual friend is very mutual if he shows you texts like that, or even a friend to one of the party. I also think you could have dealt with that out of the all seeing eye of the Internet but horses for courses.
Feel free to quote my entire last paragraph as "but horses"

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#67 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 07, 2013, 12:43:21 am
I don't think I misrepresented what you wrote about guide authors. I might have pointed out some flaws in what you said and made some relevant points of my own, no big deal.

Umm... it was obvious that his message was intended to be passed on to me  :shrug:. The phrase 'you might want to tell pete harrsion' gave it away. I don't think the messenger needs shooting here.
The point being who the hell sends out private messages threatening to kick someone's teeth in if they don't 'reel it in', off the back of an imagined slight about his bouldering claims??

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#69 No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 07, 2013, 08:46:27 am
Daughter number one was there.

But , she was only three at the time...

She told me you dabbed and used a French start. Back around...

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#70 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 07, 2013, 09:48:14 am
I don't think I misrepresented what you wrote about guide authors. I might have pointed out some flaws in what you said and made some relevant points of my own, no big deal.

Umm... it was obvious that his message was intended to be passed on to me  :shrug:. The phrase 'you might want to tell pete harrsion' gave it away. I don't think the messenger needs shooting here.
The point being who the hell sends out private messages threatening to kick someone's teeth in if they don't 'reel it in', off the back of an imagined slight about his bouldering claims??

Just to be a neutral third party, Dense, when I read what you put you did come across as a bit negative towards the guidebook writers.  So I can see why pete responded like that.  Someone misinterpreted what you said on the internet it seems.  No harm done though I think.

As to the other part... well.  As we should all know, threatening messages sent via electronic media are a belle de jour of the crown prosecution service at the moment.  That aside, I for one now don't care what he thinks, what's climbed, or whether he dabbed or not, whether he video'd himself on the crag or in the bedroom with an animal.  Clearly he's a cock.  Or you libelled him.  Can we file it for later, punter him, then ignore it and get back on topic?

I wanna know who else should have video'd themselves.  I only knew about Rich S and now Gaskins, both from here.  Who else is under suspicion?  I have seen Johnny Dawes climb indoors.  He looked rubbish.

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#71 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 07, 2013, 10:32:42 am


!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 10:44:00 am by c.j.d. »

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#72 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 07, 2013, 11:05:37 am
Quote
Just to be a neutral third party, Dense, when I read what you put you did come across as a bit negative

I think Dense should have this as his signature.

Chris, I'm not up on the North Wales scene but any 'testosterone flying around' seems to be mainly yours; understandable if you feel slighted but I'm not convinced that was anyone's intention. I think your track record would be enough evidence for most.

My take on this thread from the start has been that it is all general comment about creating a scene in which bullshitters do not flourish. That has not been the case over the last decade - Simpson was probably the highest profile liar British climbing has seen, and made a good few quid out of it. Not healthy.

Having been involved in 'maintaining the historical record', one thing I've learnt is that the mists of time tend to get thicker as the years go on. If the truth isn't established at the time it's highly unlikely to get cleared up later. Look at Si O and Johnny G - ten years down the line and they don't look dissimilar - strings of impossible problems with next to no evidence. At the time it was easy to say who to believe, but if when these problems finally get repeated Si O's are all vaguely the right grade and Johnny's are not, history could get revisionist. Better if there is no doubt in the first place.


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#73 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 07, 2013, 11:31:53 am
Just to be an aggrieved first party Lund, I did expect the comment to be taken in context with the entire thread, vis a vis video evidence and not as one snippet.

Yes Peter the message was obviously meant to be passed on to you, not to you to us. You could keep that stuff to yourself and not tell the entire world on a public forum.

Johnny the last bit drawing parallels with johnny g and Si o' saying history could get revisionist if si's grades seem right and johnnys are out means next to nothing. As I have pointed out since I started climbing anybody can guess a grade pretty accurately, ok if not anybody then I and most people I know have a gift.
Yes it is better if there's no doubt but that's not the world we live in

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#74 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 07, 2013, 12:51:58 pm
I didn't realise that there was no evidence whatsoever of any of John's hard ascents until now. No video is one thing but nobody having ever seen him climb anything really hard puts a completely different complexion on things. To me anyway.

 

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