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No longer taboo to ask for proof ? (Read 86578 times)

carlisle slapper

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#25 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 06:01:44 pm
Home vid: (it'll need 30mins to render)



My mate Cal saw john on the stand to walk away looking strong but not doing it, i know of quite a few anecdotes like this (but no definite i saw him do XYZ) i'm also good mates with a lot of strong Germans, none of whom believe him as he was on such bad form when in bocks presence and amazing form when not. Like i say i'm happily on the fence about it and its been inspiring to get strong enough to try these things. It'd just be nice to regrade them once they get reclimbed knowing they got done years ago rather than climbing someones positions they've claimed as a problem as many are undoubtedly still the hardest problems in the world and at the minute they are more of an enigma than a shining example of what can be done with a lot of dedication. funnily enough whether he's told porkies or not Johns still been great for pushing british bouldering. Its a case of reiterating what the others have said here too, from now on it'd be great if things can be developed based on more than belief alone as its not a problem to sort out anymore and it helps the bouldering massively in the long run. The point i was making on my blog was that for this to be fair on people who write guidebooks (as its not a popular job asking for proof) its only fair if i provide some proof if asked for it without kicking off (most obviously give it willingly prior to a guide being written) this makes it fairer on writers (or web/ news reports/databases)rather than them having to single people out which ends up looking like a witch hunt for newbies and recluses.

GCW and Johnny both hit nail on the head in those last posts.


Pantontino

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#26 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 06:11:14 pm
I am also glad that it is now more acceptable to ask for proof (although experience has taught me not to expect a reasonable response from everybody).

I look back on how accepting I used to be ten, fifteen years ago and realise that I was more than a touch gullible.

As for John Gaskins - a long time ago I wrote a fawning profile for OTE (which is on UKB somewhere I think. I did it this way partly because I was reacting to the bitching I heard from some quarters and partly because I was in awe of what he had achieved.

Obviously I would approach the subject in a more critical manner now. That doesn't mean I doubt him though, I don't, just that nowadays I would actively push to see footage or go out of my way to speak to more witnesses etc. the point being that it is not about what I think or feel, rather it is about how it might appear to the broader climbing community. If I could dial back time, I would have advised him to produce footage just to boost his credibility and silence the doubters.

For the record, I've seen John climb on quite a few occasions. For example, I saw him do all the moves on Walk Away sds (except landing the break at the top which I think might have been wet?). He always seemed really strong (the only comparable 'steel' that I had seen came from Ben and Malcolm) and I did not detect any bullshit. His recollections and descriptions of what he had done were always very specific and detailed. He just seemed credible.


Pantontino

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#27 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 06:14:40 pm
The point i was making on my blog was that for this to be fair on people who write guidebooks (as its not a popular job asking for proof) its only fair if i provide some proof if asked for it without kicking off (most obviously give it willingly prior to a guide being written) this makes it fairer on writers (or web/ news reports/databases)rather than them having to single people out which ends up looking like a witch hunt for newbies and recluses.

Tell me about it...  ::)

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#28 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 06:29:30 pm
A few years back we were at the Llanberis film festive thing a year when it snowed. Mostly the whole thing was shit but I think it was at this event where I remember seeing a Gaskins talk which was good and he had a lot of photos I've not seen published elsewhere - and unless my memory is totally failing me I have a feeling that he may have shown a video/s too, but I can't remember what of. I do remember at the time being pleasantly surprised as because of his incogito reputation I was just expecting some vague talking and a few photos we'd all seen published in OTE or whatever.

So hopefully this concrete proof puts the issue to bed.

On a more serious note, there must have been people who've seen him climbing stuff at the Tor when he was trying the BB gate project. I saw him there once and he traversed past us along the base of Sardine.

Doylo

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#29 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 07:09:50 pm
I saw him on BG, he was falling at the 2nd bolt. Dans right about his problems, they are enigmas and don't sit in with the other 8b and upwards problems in the UK from all the other protagonists. Take that thing on Pill Box, done in a sesh and graded 8a+/b. defo 8b+ compared the most other problems in the world. In the UK there's everybody else then gaskins!

a dense loner

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#30 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 08:02:40 pm
Basically this has descended into a gaskins hunt which it's obviously not supposed to be. Johnny is right again, we have to deal with the time we're in now not something that happened years ago. Chris i read from your post that you doubt johnny in the first couple of lines then worship him in the next. Dan has gone from being the biggest believer, apart from Greg, to now sounding like he has misgivings. Dave a photo doesn't mean much, a couple of people I know who went to johns talk said it was the most boring thing they've sat thro and came away less than inspired, however he's supposed to climb not talk in front of a crowd. None of our conjecture will prove anything one way or the other. Obviously the welsh guys have a few in-house issues with each other.
Which all quite obviously points to having video ascent of everything but that is not climbing, that is sport.

Doylo

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#31 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 09:16:28 pm
I don't doubt him but I can see why some people have reservations. Il Pirata is the worst 8c in the world, go G!

petejh

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#32 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 09:27:10 pm
..
Which all quite obviously points to having video ascent of everything but that is not climbing, that is sport.
Sport climbing


As long as there's kudos to be had for climbing hard (or claiming to) and an underlying attitude of honouring someone's word, it's highly likely there'll be bullshitters/people with issues who will be tempted to exaggerate the truth.
 
I think it boils down to which bit of climbing culture is the more important to preserve - the culture of honouring another's word and keeping some things unknowable; or the culture of recording accurate first ascent histories. If there was no more or less kudos shown toward an 8B boulder than to a 4+ boulderer it wouldn't be such a thorny issue. Likewise if first ascent histories didn't exist it wouldn't be an issue. Ascents would then just be rumours and folklore. And guide writers/magazine editors/news website spraylords et al would have less to justify their existence.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 09:34:36 pm by petejh »

scottygillery

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#33 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 10:16:50 pm
Johhny G was a liar
Rich was a liar
Bock's a liar
Dunning's a liar
Dunne's a fat liar
Ste Mc uses trees on routes
Si O doesn't exsist
Scott Mclenan doesn't even own a bike
Blackpool Sam is too big to be a climber
Dave Graham dabs and lies
Dai got trolled
Heason is a punter who climbs 8b
Pearson is a media toad
Malc did hubble on speed
and Ben
and Jerry (didn't help)
Jerry did Jerry's Trav the wrong way (back around)
Dawes can't remember topping out
Haston's not got better with age he's just got better at lying.
P-Rob actually was lucid dreaming
Durriff onsights things with 10 falls
Duriff's dad is a liar
Ian Dorey climbed the wheel of life
Fawcett did everything with a tight rope
Benarbe Fernandez can't even guess grades right
Skyler Weeks can't dyno
Shark grabs chains
Dense starts stuff in the wrong place
Ty can't sit down

Dan is boring

petejh

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#34 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 03, 2013, 10:26:59 pm
You forgot to mention Macleod overgrades everything he touches.

Which makes Dyer the best climber in the country.

slackline

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#35 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 12:18:12 am
I think it boils down to which bit of climbing culture is the more important to preserve - the culture of honouring another's word and keeping some things unknowable; or the culture of recording accurate first ascent histories.

Given time these will converge to the 'truth', no?  Yes you honor people's words, but if over time things don't stack up then the accuracy of the first ascent(s)/repeats is called into question and is subject to revision.

Is it not now a case that with t'internet (and in general technology) making the ability to share evidence a piece of piss that has expedited the 'community's' desire to reach this almost instantaneously with a video of said ascent?  (which is in essence what JB and GCW said below).

a dense loner

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#36 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 08:12:45 am
No, this is all bullshit.
The only thing that will suffice is an unedited vid of someone doing something, even repeats. I know a lot of people who dont sit on sit starts, miss out first moves on repeats, not bother doing the end of problems cos they're relatively easy or damp, dab like a madman n keep going. What do people think to this? Has said problem been done then? Just because someone has done x and y on video does not mean they have done z when alone. Someone has built up a reputation over time, this doesn't mean too much either, such a person could then lie content in the knowledge that they're not going to be questioned and say begin to make up one out of three of his ascents. Unlikely, of course it's unlikely but it could quite easily happen, people are after all fucking strange.
Another side of the video coin, I've spent a while in font with a yank friend over a few years, I've seen him repeat a lot of stuff, which he mostly videos. He then gets home at night and starts to edit it, a right hand close up looks better here a left foot there, til the problem almost looks surreal. His taste differs from mine. If you took one of these vids on its own you could pick flaws with every couple of moves, like people do. So watching that vid proves nothing apart from he can do a couple of moves, he's sat on the unedited version at home but he's an artist don't ya know...

shark

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#37 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 09:24:05 am
Another side of the video coin, I've spent a while in font with a yank friend over a few years, I've seen him repeat a lot of stuff, which he mostly videos. He then gets home at night and starts to edit it, a right hand close up looks better here a left foot there, til the problem almost looks surreal. His taste differs from mine. If you took one of these vids on its own you could pick flaws with every couple of moves, like people do. So watching that vid proves nothing apart from he can do a couple of moves, he's sat on the unedited version at home but he's an artist don't ya know...

...and  could provide the raw footage if asked.

Bonjoy

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#38 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 10:06:12 am
If a video is being offered as evidence of an ascent, obviously an edited version is weak evidence at best.
Everything you say above is true Dense, but what is your point? Flawed verification is still preferable to no verification.

Bonjoy

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#39 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 10:09:06 am
A lot of ostensible 'givens' in life carry a small, acceptable level of uncertainty. I don't think anyone is suggesting this will ever be eliminated in climbing.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 08:59:48 pm by Bonjoy »

Johnny Brown

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#40 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 10:46:22 am
Or we could ignore the video and just ask Dense what he saw. Cross-examining witnesses is, after all, how 'the truth' is usually established.

a dense loner

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#41 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 10:59:39 am
Fuck! I just wrote a long piece which luckily for everyone involved has not turned up. Steve fuckin Jobs has got a lot to answer for!
My point Jon is that we are climbers not machines. If a person does not want to or for some reason didnt video himself doing something he does not need to, historical significance or no, and who the fuck do guidebook writers think they are to say if its not videoed i wont put it in? You write a guidebook thats it, its not legislature. Of course it's best if its filmed but that doesn't mean that he hasn't done it if he doesn't film it. People mostly have a pretty good idea who's bullshitting anyway.
To reiterate the point johnny, video evidence is ok if it's there. Saying ask me if its not is a bit ridiculous.
What is of significance to one person may not be at all to another.

Johnny Brown

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#42 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 11:13:41 am
Quote
Saying ask me if its not is a bit ridiculous.

Well you did say you were there. It wasn't general advice, I thought that much was obvious.

I for one have put stuff in guidebooks that I have doubts about. I'm sure Panton and Bonjoy have too. That doesn't mean I don't believe it, just that I'd like to see more evidence. But the default position remains that it goes in unless the contradictory evidence is overwhelming. Over time new information comes to light, some stuff becomes easier to believe and others less so, and maybe mistakes get made. But that's life.

a dense loner

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#43 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 11:23:04 am
Exactly, what you've just described johnny is what every guidebook writer has done

And I did think you meant ask me as a general in an attempt at a funny

Johnny Brown

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#44 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 11:27:41 am
No, the general point implied was that there are more witnesses floating about than videos. Some of whom, like your own example, might even be better than the video.

Nibile

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#45 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 01:00:11 pm
Panopticon climbing. Bentham would be happy!

Nigel

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#46 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 02:07:17 pm
This is getting slightly confusing as everyone seems to be arguing different points, although as usual it has swung round to liars which lets face it is quite interesting.

I think Johnny sums it up well – the current system of peer-reviewed belief is imperfect but the best we’ve got. And history shows it usually catches people out (in the end). Of course videoing is easy now and would solve all future ills, but as Dense says you can’t enforce it. And since you can’t enforce it, then liars will just eschew it (since clearly they wouldn’t have a video). And then we are back to current system.

To me the underlying issue here is not “no video = bullshit”, as this is clearly not the case, never has been, never will. Dave’s example of Dave Graham is a good one – if he wanders back from the crag on his own and says he just did a new 8b then who the hell is going to doubt him? Most people have credibility. The real foundation is the “lone wolf” i.e. those who do all their hardest ascents on their tod. Now every “lone wolf” is not a liar, far from it, but obviously all liars are “lone wolves” (since they never have witnesses), hence there is often a whiff of suspicion of this type of character regardless of integrity – evidence of this on this thread. Anyone who fits this profile who didn’t realise that this is how it works is naïve at best. I guess the point is that there is now no need to be a “lone wolf” since anyone with £20 and a pocket can take a portable unimpeachable witness to every crag - unlike the old days. Although obviously only if you care.

Stubbs

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#47 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 02:11:49 pm
I guess the point is that there is now no need to be a “lone wolf” since anyone with £20 and a pocket can take a portable unimpeachable witness to every crag

Is that how much it costs to get Dense to spot you?  Does there have to be anything in the pocket?

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#48 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 08:40:41 pm
I'll toss an add-on into the mix.  Climbing at your limit involves considerable mental stress to drown out all of the doubts/fears/etc.  I've found on a personal level, that managing a video camera solo generally adds to the stress rather than diminishes it.  And now you're asking me to film everything as proof?  Not gonna happen.  Video is great when there's a group, but I don't like it when I'm solo.  I do it sometimes, but I don't like it....

shark

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#49 Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
January 04, 2013, 09:22:09 pm
I'll toss an add-on into the mix.  Climbing at your limit involves considerable mental stress to drown out all of the doubts/fears/etc.  I've found on a personal level, that managing a video camera solo generally adds to the stress rather than diminishes it.  And now you're asking me to film everything as proof?  Not gonna happen.  Video is great when there's a group, but I don't like it when I'm solo.  I do it sometimes, but I don't like it....


Heavy climber, likes his beer, new problems, big grades, remote locations, no witnesses.... seriously -  I'd strongly recommend you make a habit of videoing 

 

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