[Three Nine]

No i don't i'm just a poodle

[Johnny Brown]

Mark used the toe. Ben used the toe shortly afterwards. I don't know which visionary climber first used the heel.

Darren Stevenson

Credit where it due, it was Chris Sharma. Not that it got him anywhere, though I think Darren was watching. I guess Darren was the first to do it with the heel though. No doubt Dawes also chucked a heel on during early attempts to settle his bet with Jerry, but it wasn't so influential.

[Tom de Gay]

I remember Steve doing it with the heel, winter of '98/99 I think, when the toe was very much the approved sequence. Of course it's possible that a talented but modest dark horse (such as Chris Sharma) got in there first.

[tomtom]

I think the original topic is pointless. Glad its stopped.

But, I'm loving the insight into Cave politics! You guys could start a soap opera.... Caveside?

Following these insights, instead of "the cave of justice", I shall now know it as "the damp, quarried, drilled, chipped hovel of wet tampons"

[SA Chris]

Following these insights, instead of "the cave of justice", I shall now know it as "the damp, quarried, drilled, chipped hovel of wet tampons, knee related jessiery and grade arguments"

[nodder]

Any one got any dynamite?  We could stop it all then.

[Fiend]

No we don't (as many already know, do a bit of searching and you'll find some info on him, no need for Pete to blow his own trumpet).

Exactly, what...

Its just that Barrows said he thought that PeteJH probably wasn't very good at climbing, like pretty much everyone else that climbs on the Orme, and that basically his posts were motivated by jealousy. That's why I puntered Pete (earning the 'poodle' smear). As pretty much the best (strongest and most technically proficent) climber in the Cave I think Barrows' arguments count for a bit more than Pete's, that's all.

...fucking drivel. Does it look like Pete's arguments are knee-jerk reactionary jealousy?? He might be wrong but he's got reasoning, coherency, analogies etc. The best climber's arguments count for more my arse, more like the best reasoned and most logical arguments count for more.

[Three Nine]

Are you jealous of his prodigious talent too?

[tomtom]

Any one got any dynamite?  We could stop it all then.

Good idea, shove it in the wet pockets to soak up the moisture

Spraycrete would work too!

[AJM]

No i don't i'm just a poodle

Settling into the role well - you haven't called him a fat punter, a fucker or a cunt in at least 4 posts now 

And as for this:

As pretty much the best (strongest and most technically proficent) climber in the Cave I think Barrows' arguments count for a bit more than Pete's, that's all.

Well that's practically a compliment! Amidst the shit stirring obviously....

[SA Chris]

knee-jerk reactionary jealousy

very good.

[tomtom]

I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees 

The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.

Ahem....

[slackline]

Enough of this nonce sense.

[masonwoods101]

 

[tomtom]

[Stu Littlefair]

Does it look like Pete's arguments are knee-jerk reactionary jealousy?? He might be wrong but he's got reasoning, coherency, analogies etc. The best climber's arguments count for more my arse, more like the best reasoned and most logical arguments count for more.

"Coherence - a logical and orderly and consistent relation of parts"

PeteJH - "Is it really very controversial for me to say that ‘bouldering’, when played in its best guise, generally means ... working seemingly impossible moves until they become just about possible? "

Like for example, finding a better sequence involving a kneebar?

PeteJH - "You can pick holes in my argument all night long because it's as full of them as a padless trouser leg."

PeteJH - "It says a lot about the style of climbing in the cave that kneepads are so useful there - i.e. they're basically power-endurance problems, a route grade would be appropriate for the longer links."

(emphasis mine)

to compare with

PeteJH - "Routes aren't bouldering and aren't relevant to the point I'm making."

That's about as coherent as my shit after a vindaloo and three special brews.

[Three Nine]

  yuck!

[a dense loner]

Putting a knee bar in is far different from using a knee pad. People have spoke at length about how is it different from using chalk or wearing climbing shoes. U need chalk to climb, everyone knows that, I don't really care about people doing big routes without it. U need climbing shoes to climb, everyone knows that, I don't really care about people doing the same moves over n over with trainers on. For nearly all of the climbing public at large this is a given. A knee pad is an addition that 99 out of 100 climbers will never use. Any time u put a knee bar in with a knee pad the move is easier, or the rest is possible or better than without, otherwise no one would willingly look so ridiculous. Problems aren't graded for knee pad ascents, it's not remotely the same as saying people didn't use to climb on heels. U always had heels on shoes, which is how most humans get around. Knees haven't always needed the addition of a pad. Granted most of DG's ascents have come about because of a knee pad, but problems should be graded as they have been and still are for the average person who will strangely turn up with a bag of chalk and a pair of climbing shoes. If a knee pad is used this should be noted, the rock is still the same but the challenge has become different, and everybody knows this.

[Stu Littlefair]

Lee. I'm disappointed in you.

"U need chalk to climb, everyone knows that"

This ain't climbing then? http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=17798

"U need climbing shoes to climb, everyone knows that"

http://www.8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread.aspx?ObjectId=7863&ObjectClass=CLS_UserNewsComment&CountryCode=GLOBAL

"A knee pad is an addition that 99 out of 100 climbers will never use"

A straw poll of climbers at Raven Tor this weekend showed that 75% of climbers had kneepads. Can't argue with facts.

[Pantontino]

Apologies to those who want to discuss this in more general terms, but I’m just here to talk about the Cave (and a bit about North Wales).

I’m currently writing/producing the next North Wales Bouldering guide. I’ve already published four guides to the Cave (1998: Northern Soul fanzine, 1999: Coastal Crags fanzine, 2004: North Wales Bouldering, 2009: Parisella’s Cave). And I’ve run a website that reports first ascents and important repeats in North Wales since 2004 (admittedly less vital on Ormes stuff since the advent of Doylo’s excellent blog).

I suppose it goes without saying that I have deep emotional connection to the place. Sometimes I’ve just gone there and picked up rubbish to make it nicer for everyone (and myself of course) and to make sure that the wardens don’t get the wrong idea about us climbers.

The cave has always been an important place for Welsh bouldering, and the last 10 years have seen some incredible climbing feats in there. You do get haters, but usually this is a product of them getting their arses kicked on stuff that their egos tell them should be well within their grasp. I still hear people bitching about the goat shit – but the goats haven’t been in the cave since the early noughties (too many people for their liking).

Cutting to the chase though: seeing a classic benchmark problem like Director’s Cut broken down in this way is gutting. It just seems wrong on so many levels. (Remember when that tall German bloke did the sds to Brad Pit – he was immediately disregarded by the Peak cognoscenti) All that being said, what Alex has done doesn’t really change anything – he is too tall for his methods to be applicable to a general grade consensus.

There are no essential knee bars in the cave, all of the moves or rests can be achieved, and have been done without. Also the cave knee bars only really work with proper rubber pads, and some of the popular ones like the one on Trigger Cut are only do-able if you are a 6 footer. (e.g. Pete Robins is 5.10 and he can’t get the Trigger Cut knee bar to work) [Although I'm sure some short arse will pop up now and say it does work for them.]

In the new guide (due out next year) certain cave problems will be described with two grades: one for a traditional ascent and one for those who are wearing rubber kneepads, and can get them to work (a 6ft tall climber has this option). On the page these two snippets of info will be tiny – I see no reason not to mention the differing grade assessments, especially when the knee-padded climbing experience is not available to the many shorter or medium build climbers.

That seems to fit where we are at this particular point in time. Guidebooks are historical records; they are not meant to predict the future (maybe in 2020 we'll all be climbing in magnetic rubber suits with augmented reality sequence providers), although they can influence it.

I can see that rubber kneepads are here to stay, but how we fit them into the game is up to us. There will be a few problems (but not that many) outside of the Cave that have critical knee bars. I’ll consider those on a case by case basis.

[nodder]

So which grade do you take if you use the kneebars but no rubber?

[slackline]

U need chalk to climb, everyone knows that, I don't really care about people doing big routes without it.

Nor this (although I expect it will be dismissed as "big routes", but how else are they ascended if its not climbing, certainly not levitation!)

So which grade do you take if you use the kneebars but no rubber?

Split grade obviously!

[SA Chris]

I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees 

The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.

Ahem....

Don't break your arm patting your own back.

[a dense loner]

I'd agree with your post Si, seems the only sensible option open.

I'm sorry to disappoint stu, I knew someone would come back at me with sense. I'm also sorry to hear about the queuing time on Mecca getting even longer now. On the plus side people wil have more time to discuss their various diets and how they're not feeling too well at the moment 

[Pantontino]

So which grade do you take if you use the kneebars but no rubber?

Very unlikely to happen - that person (should they exist) can take whatever grade they like.