[Jack.G]

Suppose someone had to bring it up.

Doylo's recent blog entries have rattled my cage, wondering if it is just me.

I am keeping my immediate reactions to one side until some other opinons are put forward.


Disclaimer: Posting while pissed (first draft was a full on rant)

[abarro81]

I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees 

[tomtom]

I wouldn't go out on a limb to do it though

[Wood FT]

I wouldn't go out on a limb to do it though

I agree, no kneed for the this post

[Serpico]

I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees 

The first draft was probably just a knee-jerk reaction.

[Stenno]

I wouldn't go out on a limb to do it though

I agree, no kneed for the this post

Bar one valid point, we knee to cap this topic before it escalates as a lot hinges on it.

Seriously though, I would never dispute that barrows deserved the tick of the problem and fair dues for some very impressive technical skill, but personally I'd always have more respect for someone who powers through the moves knee barless. The upside down hands free rest doesn't really match up to the concept of maximum physical effort that I thought were central to bouldering. Well at least overhanging limestone powerfest style bouldering.

[moose]

I want to see your first draft. It makes me so happy when people get pissed off about knees 

Whenever I see threads like this I imagine the poster wandering their house in a stiff-legged rage; boiling over after their non-flexing knees have stopped them from, say, picking up a dropped Werther's Original....

That said, whilst there's obviously nought wrong with a knee bar, I have mixed feelings about knee-pads.... seems a little "aidy" - what's next taping sky-hooks to fingers?  Still, you can't get toothpaste back in the tube.

[neilpearsons]

We're letting the word 'faggot' through though are we? I can't see that happening it it were a racist term. Is homophobia OK?

[Stu Littlefair]

Yes. Yes it is.

At least, faggot is the least offensive word in that title

[Bonjoy]

Shame you didn't leave the rant Jack. Suspect I might have agreed and it would have saved me some typing.
I'll have to have a rant instead.

Get a grip people. Using knees is as valid as using hands, feet, beards or bollocks, get over it. Anyone would think you were a bunch of mentally deficient gym monkey's in a sulk because you might have to think a bit harder from now on. So someone has taken the shine off some of your trophies. It's your own fault for missing a trick. Before anyone says "Ah but we never used to have 5.10 pads", it's no excuse I've used homemade pads for years which have been functionally just as good, just a bit less comfortable.
As for regrading stuff, no new principles apply. Grades are for the average of stature using the best of kit. If morphological outliers can get in extra kneebars it has no bearing on the grade for the average man, ergo the grade stays the same. It's no different from other forms of lank advantage. Life isn't fair, neither is climbing, there's no fixing it.

Seriously though, I would never dispute that barrows deserved the tick of the problem and fair dues for some very impressive technical skill, but personally I'd always have more respect for someone who powers through the moves knee barless.

I'm the other way. I have more respect for people with the skill to do things the easiest way possible. If you can climb an 8a a pointlessly nontechnical hard way you should be using some braincells and applying yourself on an 8a+.
I may be 'impressed' by sickening feats of power, but ultimately displaying a poor power to skill ratio is not something to be proud of.

The upside down hands free rest doesn't really match up to the concept of maximum physical effort that I thought were central to bouldering. Well at least overhanging limestone powerfest style bouldering.

That is one weird parallel version of the climbing game to the one I know. The concept as I understand it is to apply minimum physical effort and therefore get up the hardest possible lines.




Definately feel better for getting that off my chest. 

[Stubbs]

We're letting the word 'faggot' through though are we?

I assumed the OP was talking about stuffing kneepads with faggots (like Brains) to make the knees bigger and allow wider kneebars to be used.  Such behaviour often leaves greasy pork mince on holds, which is no good for anyone.

Edit: I agree with Bonjoy; I'd also like to see anyone who thinks it's 'easy' get into the upside down double knee position Barrows used and then 'rest' in it. 

[dave]

We're letting the word 'faggot' through though are we? I can't see that happening it it were a racist term. Is homophobia OK?

I'm prepared to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume the thread title was somehow a reference to the blackcountry meatball delicacy.

Obviously it would be unnacceptabe to us it in a gayist sense.

[Fiend]

DOWNGRADE.

[moose]

I thought "faggotry" was being used in the sense of kindling / sticks; a metaphorical reference to kneepads fueling his fiery rage against all that's wrong in modern climbing. 

This needs resolving.  OP, would you like to burn or eat faggots?...... actually.... maybe not we're best off not knowing that .....

[abarro81]

What Bonjoy said.
Technology improves, sometimes in small increments (a slight tweak of the heel design here or there that allows your heel to stick on your project), sometimes in larger steps (sticky rubber, cams, kneepads). Actually pads are probably also the former since homemade ones have been around for decades (just ask Seb Grieve), the Americans have used ever improving rubber ones for years etc. etc.

It's not like I claimed Director's and Greenheart were the same grade after I found that rest. Maybe I should have, that would  really have pissed a few people off.

[Doylo]

The kneepads certainly are a game changer on certain climbs and i can see why some people would say "whats next?". In my view a bit of rubber stuck to your knee is in the realm of acceptable.  When i saw the footage of Barrows on Directors and the no hands rest i thought it was a shame but on the other hand it's pretty damn impressive.  Give most people a kneepad and they wouldn't be able to do that.  Pete Harrison was telling me about a similar thing in dry tooling when heel spurs came out and people started resting up the routes.  Will Gadd wrote an article listing grades for ascents with heel spurs and ascents without and everyone stopped using them because they wanted the grade.  I think in climbing as long as you're honest about the difficulty it's not an issue.  You're still climbing the same line it's just easier so take a lower grade.  8a.nu 'personal' grades all the way baby! 

[tomtom]

For some problems, the grade generally given can be using a specific technique... So if you do it with knee bars or even heels for some problems then your different way may require a different grade - or not.

After trying one problem at Carrock last week I'd like a stealth rubber calf pad

[Jack.G]

Apologies for the use of Faggorty in the title, it wan't related in any way homophobia, just tounge in cheek climbing related term for "trickery" that I generally was not happy with.

Sorry Bonjoy, would have made good counter rant, as I said may be its just me but thinking about it the main instigating factors were;

fashioning a hand-off rest on a boulder problem, I just cant agree with / see the point,

I totally agree that there is a place for a kneepad, as a "pad" for protection / comfort and not an aid, which these Five Ten pads are. Much like taping fingers to save skin getting slashed by a particulary sharp hold, but there is a vauge line where the tape could become aid.

Lastly, I was stomping round the house raging  over the comment (which I now hope was just in jest) that Kneepads are game-on for FAs.

It is all up to the individual at the end of the day, as long as they are comfortable with their ascent.

[Stenno]

The upside down hands free rest doesn't really match up to the concept of maximum physical effort that I thought were central to bouldering. Well at least overhanging limestone powerfest style bouldering.

That is one weird parallel version of the climbing game to the one I know. The concept as I understand it is to apply minimum physical effort and therefore get up the hardest possible lines.

You are absolutely correct, I expressed my point there arseways. What I meant to say was:

The thing which attracted me most to bouldering over other climbing disciplines is the concept of trying moves at your physical limit, pulling through a crux where your body is screaming and nothing but sheer determination holds you on. One of the best feelings I've ever experienced. Kneebaring the fuck out of a boulder problem at every opportunity makes it seem like you are trying to avoid that feeling completely. Of course this is purely my opinion and anyone feel free to disagree. Its a different style of ascent with and without kneepads but both are very impressive in different respects.

[Doylo]

I totally agree that there is a place for a kneepad, as a "pad" for protection / comfort and not an aid, which these Five Ten pads are. Much like taping fingers to save skin getting slashed by a particulary sharp hold, but there is a vauge line where the tape could become aid.

Lastly, I was stomping round the house raging  over the comment (which I now hope was just in jest) that Kneepads are game-on for FAs.

It was tongue in cheek- it's the same as using as them for any climb.  At least on FAs though you're not changing a classic sequence and making it massively easier.

[Danny]

The upside down hands free rest doesn't really match up to the concept of maximum physical effort that I thought were central to bouldering. Well at least overhanging limestone powerfest style bouldering.

That is one weird parallel version of the climbing game to the one I know. The concept as I understand it is to apply minimum physical effort and therefore get up the hardest possible lines.

You are absolutely correct, I expressed my point there arseways. What I meant to say was:

The thing which attracted me most to bouldering over other climbing disciplines is the concept of trying moves at your physical limit, pulling through a crux where your body is screaming and nothing but sheer determination holds you on. One of the best feelings I've ever experienced. Kneebaring the fuck out of a boulder problem at every opportunity makes it seem like you are trying to avoid that feeling completely. Of course this is purely my opinion and anyone feel free to disagree. Its a different style of ascent with and without kneepads but both are very impressive in different respects.

Kneepads just change the goalposts of the climbable and, possibly, make the game more interesting, just like chalk, sticky rubber, bouldering pads and the rest. Historically, there's always been some tumult when things like this come along, which always seems silly with a good bit of hindsight. Having said that, being able to climb up harder stuff with more ease isn't always regarded as progress, and this isn't always a bad thing with hindsight. See the Czech sandstone for evidence of that.

Whenever debate erupts over, for example, bolting on grit, rap bolting in the states, onsighting...what's common is the preservation of some form of "the game" that we're all involved in. It's all pretty artificial.

So, if it suddenly transpires that there's 50 amazing no hands rests all over a classic hard bouldering venue it's only natural that some people would want to embrace that fully, and that others would want to draw a different line in the sand. I think neither is any more or less valid.

I fucking love my kneepad, by the way. And, I wonder if this is doable sans pad?

!

[Doylo]

Shame on you Dave Macleod, tut tut...

[Bonjoy]

It occurred to me later, given the thread title, that you might be ranting for the other side on this Jack.
Seeing as you wrote the OP i'll see what holes I can pick in your argument.

fashioning a hand-off rest on a boulder problem, I just cant agree with / see the point,

Nobody 'fashions' a kneebar on a problem. The bar was there all along, other people just didn't see/use it for whatever reason.
You can't see the point? It's the same point as any other climbing (unless you subscribe to the idea that bouldering is just training for bigger things). I.e. finding the easiest way up a bit of rock and/or dragging your carcass up the most inhospitable collection of rock features you are able.
 

I totally agree that there is a place for a kneepad, as a "pad" for protection / comfort and not an aid, which these Five Ten pads are.

It is utterly arbitrary to hold this standard for a bit of rubber on your thigh when you hold another (intuitively sensible) standard for rubber on your feet. It just sounds like straw clutching to me. I can understand folk being peeved that the goal posts have moved, rendering old sequences (and their grades) historical eliminates, just admit it and be done. I'd be peeved if any type of new beta was found on a route/prob of mine, which dropped the grade. It's happen plenty of times. I'm never pissed off with the person who climbed it better than me, I'm just pissed off with myself for missing a trick.
I mean really, who and how the fuck could/would you arbitrate the line between comfort padding and padding to assist climbing? They totally blend into one another.
There is no practical middle ground, either you try (and fail miserably) to prevent people using pads on boulder probs at all, or you accept their use totally, even if this changes some grades. It's like saying you accept chalk use to dry up sweat but not to improve friction, the two aspects are indivisible.

Much like taping fingers to save skin getting slashed by a particularly sharp hold, but there is a vague line where the tape could become aid.

I can only think you mean tape gloves. Again I can't see a problem. So long as you don't tape an ice axe onto your hand.

Lastly, I was stomping round the house raging  over the comment (which I now hope was just in jest) that Kneepads are game-on for FAs.

Not using a kneepad on an FA, if you spot kneebar potential, is ridiculous and asking for later disappointment. Unless you happen to like putting up (needless) eliminates and having your stuff downgraded that is.

It is all up to the individual at the end of the day, as long as they are comfortable with their ascent.

This seems to contradict your notion implied above that FAs using kneepads are somehow of lesser validity. And whilst what you say of individual comfort is true, it doesn't change the fact that if the use of a kneebar (and whatever form of pad you prefer) is clearly the easiest way to climb something, then this is what it should be graded for and the non-kneebar way is an eliminate.

[MJC]

Kneebaring the fuck out of a boulder problem at every opportunity makes it seem like you are trying to avoid that feeling completely. Of course this is purely my opinion and anyone feel free to disagree.

I think where they are used, the problems are probably still as difficult as you describe, and the difference is that without a kneepad they might not be possible at all (for the person trying).

[abarro81]

Saved me some effort Bonjoy.
Tape = aid? Guess Salathe must still be waiting for a free ascent.
Personally I can't see the point in NOT using knees. If I'm bouldering outside I'm doing it 1. for fun, 2. to train for sport routes.
1: Knees are fun, I fucking love spinny-kneebar-toehook-invert stuff, it's rad.
2: Training includes getting better at climbing, not just getting stronger. If you want something which is purely a physical challenge then go to the gym 

pulling through a crux where your body is screaming and nothing but sheer determination holds you on. One of the best feelings I've ever experienced. Kneebaring the fuck out of a boulder problem at every opportunity makes it seem like you are trying to avoid that feeling completely

You should try sport climbing on enduro routes, you'll get that feeling a lot more than you will bouldering. In fact, if you really want that feeling you should try climbing routes with upside-down kneebar rests, so that your legs/abbs/head get pumped too - it's awesome. Your point applies equally to slabs, tenuous heels and anything else with an aspect of technical skill too by the way.