[douglas]

I haven't heard of many (any?) strong climbers training on gymnastic rings. I'm looking to supplement my powerlifting with some pure upper body after gaining a stone in a couple of months. What advice is there regarding ring training for make benefit great climber? Thanks! Who trains on rings?

[iwasmexican]

cant really say much for them other than you will hurt all over for days after even an hour session of 5-6 exercises, which can only be a good thing.


plus you ll be able to do an iron cross eventually, and that cant be a bad thing either...

[saltbeef]

look at your original post, i don't know if you are hoping that power lifting is going to benefit your climbing, but you've gained a stone of presumably excess muscle mass that your fingers are now going to support. Are rings going to offset this? no they are likely to compound it. Try climbing with a 7kg weight belt and see if you notice a difference.
(danger anecdote ahoy! this comes from someone who has done rings in the past, i don't think they benefited me much at all, far less than climbing steep stuff or going on a fingerboard. even then this is questionable benefit as I would improve more from time on rock)

[tomtom]

The best training for climbing is.....

[Paul B]

(danger anecdote ahoy! this comes from someone who has done rings in the past, i don't think they benefited me much at all, far less than climbing steep stuff or going on a fingerboard. even then this is questionable benefit as I would improve more from time on rock)

It sounds like you'll have more in common with Saltbeef regarding muscle mass than compared to me (meat loaf vs. a twiglet) but I found rings extremely beneficial in sorting out weak and unstable shoulders. Incidentally at the time steepness was certainly my forte but I could barely hold static L-sits etc. on the rings.

[slackline]

The best training for climbing is.....

To be found here

[tomtom]

The best training for climbing is.....

To be found here

Noo.. not graphs...

The best training is climbing!

[Muenchener]

I haven't heard of many (any?) strong climbers training on gymnastic rings.

Er, John Gill?

[dobbin]

I could barely hold static L-sits etc. on the rings.

Much to our combined amusement eh Salty? Burnt off by the Barrett

[abarro81]

Are you lot spending your time and energy powerlifting etc on crack, living a long way from any rock/walls or can take the most phenomenal training load that using this stuff as a supplement doesn't negatively affect your more important sessions?

[Paul B]

I could barely hold static L-sits etc. on the rings.

Much to our combined amusement eh Salty? Burnt off by the Barrett

Burnt off and then laughed at by the Barrett

[saltbeef]

I could barely hold static L-sits etc. on the rings.

Much to our combined amusement eh Salty? Burnt off by the Barrett

VERY FUNNY! Its almost as good as this video

[saltbeef]

I think Barrows is incredibly talking sense.
Paul I think L sits get progressively harder as your hamstring/back flexibility decreases. Paul you can't touch your toes. I would've thought banging out a couple of sets of press ups will give you sufficiently strong shoulders and won't negatively impact on your core climbing sessions where you will reap the most reward in imprvement in terms of climbing as Barrows suggests. (of course I will still just go to the wall and fuck about - hence 7b 4 life!)

[Paul B]

I think Barrows is incredibly talking sense.

I'll start listening to Barrows on strength training advice when he actually does a hard move instead of avoiding them through choice or through knees... (Edit: I missed out 'Lank')

Joking aside I (partially) agree. I'm not wholly convinced by the benefits of powerlifting (or weights in general) for climbing. For me personally, rings really helped sort out my shoulders at the time (they were a ticking time bomb of instability), I also think they helped a lot with my core although I did start doing them mainly as I was getting bored of the board(s). However, this is purely anecdotal and Mason, who I was doing ring sessions with at the time went on to dislocate his shoulder not long after.

[slackline]

Joking aside I (partially) agree. I'm not wholly convinced by the benefits of powerlifting (or weights in general) for climbing. For me personally, rings really helped sort out my shoulders at the time (they were a ticking time bomb of instability), I also think they helped a lot with my core although I did start doing them mainly as I was getting bored of the board(s). However, this is purely anecdotal and Mason, who I was doing ring sessions with at the time went on to dislocate his shoulder not long after.

I don't really train, but in reading around for writing the benchmarking thing I came across this in MacLeods 9 out of 10 climbers (pp76-77)

In general, weight training is not really the most efficient form of training for the vast majority of climbers. Nearly all climbers need to climb more. So they should spend any spare time they have for training just doing the climbing related stu. Weight training is a powerful but rather blunt instrument, even when done correctly. For climbers who have other things in their lives besides climbing (so their time for training is limited), some other form of real climbing is always a more ecient way to make gains. It's possible to target specifc muscle groups or areas of weakness in climbing in just the same way as weight training, but still be learning technique and tactics at the same time. Time spent pumping iron is time not learning any climbing skills.

There is more text on page 77 saying that there are a handful of pro climbers who use it, but that amounts to only weak anecdotal evidence and that many other pro climbers perform at a similar level without recourse to weights.

[Nibile]

 :icon_beerchug:I don't think that rings are specifically good for core, unless you become able to perform routines that warrant you a 9,00 at the Olympics.
The kind of core needed in climbing is a lot more complex than holding an L-seat, in my opinion. But I could easily be wrong.
I think that rings are awesome to develop a particular kind of upper body power that can then trained again specifically for climbing.
We must remember that a ring session can also give a very different stimulus to the body while resting fingers for example. Not everyone has the luxury of endless time or enormous climbing walls or close rocks, as to avoid anything else than climbing itself in its various forms.
I consider lifting - and if I were to do rings I'd consider rings as well - as an active rest day, climbing wise, in which I can potentiate the climbing specific training of the days before and after with a full body recruitment. Lifting increases testosterone production also and this is crucial for strength training.
I've only tried rings once at The Works, and they felt good.
Just my opinion, no science, punter level, etc...

[Nibile]

Also, many people could avoid rings also because they could train in a more specific way the same weaknesses, or firstly address more important weaknesses.

[douglas]

Wow, I'm incredibly grateful for the replies. There is a lot to digest here.

First of all, I don't live near a wall, the Cave, Tor etc, so Saturday and Sunday are the only days I can do moves. Tuesday and Thursday I train on the fingerboard, one hour sessions. So am I lazy on the fingers front.

Monday, Wednesday, Friday are currently powerlifting days, again one hour sessions (ish). These sessions are targeted directly at developing climbing muscles in the body; back, sides, shoulders, arms but by their nature they involve legs and thus some muscle gain is dead weight. I was considering replacing some powerlifting sessions with ring work for two reasons; they involve no leg, and front core can more easily be trained than by lifting weights.

I would be interested in hearing opinions on what else I could do? More or longer fingerboard sessions? Other than that I don't know. I'm 78 kgs, 6 foot 4, can't hang an edge one handed or do a one armer, but can almost front lever.

Not on crack, just want to get better steep bouldering.

[abarro81]

I suspect I'd fingerboard more in that situation - Tues, Weds and Thurs. 1hr including warm up or after warm up? If the former then add on 30min for sure. Arm and core work on bar. Core work on floor.

Only training for bouldering or routes too?

[iwasmexican]

second that get on the fingerboard more. reckon you re that rings would do more good than lifting though, but in your case fingers are probably holding you back more?

[douglas]

Thank you. I was unsure that a fingerboard session third day on would do any good at all..? Currently one hour including warm up.

Routes vs. bouldering, I'd love to do both but I honestly don't have the motivation to train endurance on a fingerboard and don't want to spend the weekend lapping stuff to get fit. The PE end of bouldering I can just about get motivated for.

The thing is, on a fingerboard I'm sure I need stronger fingers to get better but going climbing I feel like if I could just lock harder or hold the swing easier or stick the foothold I could climb it and that makes me believe I need a stronger body... tricky one.

[kingholmesy]

Is there any scope for you to build a woody?

[abarro81]

If you can't do 3 1 hr fingerboard sessions on consecutive days I can't see you ability to tolerate training load being high enough that the power lifting wont be negatively affecting your climbing on the weekend. Or your fingerboarding for that matter. Could be wrong though.

1hr inc warm-up seems like very little, do you warm up really quick? It takes me 30min before I'm pulling near my max. That only leaves 30min training time - not very much.

I'd probably do something like
T - max 1 arm hangs
W - Lopez style hangs, 4 hang repeaters/encores, core
T - repeaters/encores, core

[douglas]

Okay, brilliant. Currently my sessions are 20 mins warm up. 20 mins 3-hang repeaters, 20 mins open to crimp switches. So aimed at finger flexor hypertrophy.

I appreciate the advice.

A woody, I dream!

[richdraws]

Sack rings, don't go anywhere near them. I blame them and false grip for my Duputryens. Also, unless you have no ego whatsoever you will attempt an iron cross. At best you will hold it for ten seconds and ruin your shoulders for ever.
They're shit.

[Pebblespanker]

Sack rings, don't go anywhere near them. I blame them and false grip for my Duputryens. Also, unless you have no ego whatsoever you will attempt an iron cross. At best you will hold it for ten seconds and ruin your shoulders for ever.
They're shit.

  too tempting by half for those of us with no ring technique or training to have a play on ...

they had a set at Notts wall  for a while and like you do we mucked about on them occasionally for fun failing utterly to do muscle ups or much else to be honest. Then one day we noticed they weren't there so we asked why ... apparently someone tore a bicep using them so they were removed, bullet dodged I reckon

[Krank]

if used properly rings are superb for overall body strength, but conditioning exercises must be included. if you jump on them with no experience and try to do an iron cross then your a fool and you will soon be an injured fool.

[mrjonathanr]

Bump on this.

Does anybody use them? What do you do? Do you think it helps?

Conversely, has anybody specifically rejected them as unhelpful or damaging?

FWIW I am thinking of very specific exercises, not just random flailing  ie front and back lever progressions.

Thanks.

[csl]

Not personal experience - but Megos mentions antagonist training on rings as his single best climbing tip... I'm sure gimme kraft has a load of good ring exercises.

http://www.epictv.com/media/podcast/-alex-megos-single-best-training-tip-%7C-epictv-climbing-daily-ep-377/600686

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks. I'll look at Gimme Kraft then.

[Oldmanmatt]

Thanks. I'll look at Gimme Kraft then.

Meet the "Angry Midget"...

Post

"Judge me by my size, do you, Skywalker?"

Edit...

That's my eldest Son...

[jakk]

I find them great for doing flyes and rollouts as its really easy to progress, you can just gradually move them down/move the feet out. Also have started doing dips on them after getting alright at dips on parallel bars and also working at just sort of holding in the support position while my muscles got used to it. Otherwise you can do things like 1-arm inverted rows, and most stuff you could use a trx for in terms of random core exercises. Also definitely Gimme Kraft, looots of exercises in that book.

I think as long as you are mindful of what you're doing you should be fine avoiding injury. Don't try to casually iron cross, don't worry about doing muscle ups with false grips, just think about what you're doing and if there is a way to progress to it and you'll be fine.

[TobyD]

Bump on this.

Does anybody use them? What do you do? Do you think it helps?

Conversely, has anybody specifically rejected them as unhelpful or damaging?

FWIW I am thinking of very specific exercises, not just random flailing  ie front and back lever progressions.

Thanks.

I use them occasionally. I think their specificity is poor, its open rather than closed chain exercise; and subjectively I've noticed little carry over into climbing. Other than that i have a really tired core / shoulders after using them for about 24 hours, and hence do not use them unless end of climbing session and have sore skin, a tweaky finger etc, and don't want to pull on holds.

[Muenchener]

I agree regarding the doubtful relevance to climbing, but I had a set at home for a while and found them good for general shoulder health if used carefully. I did skin the cats, supports and equal amounts of pull ups and deep - armpits to hands - dips. (Didn't try anything over ambitious such as actual gymnastics, in other words)

Also good for things like bodyweight rows with heels on the ground (closed chain climbing-relevant movement), press ups and Y-T-W-L style shoulder exercises. Sling trainers seem to be the apparatus du jour for those at the moment: basically the same thing as adjustable rings.

[turnipturned]

I think they are really good, much better than weights. Mainly stick to flys and roll outs and variations of these which I have progressed to doing on my toes, but started on my knees then out in front.

I think they are good because they work everything at once, especially lower abs. I have also looked into doing specific ab exercises in them but I think TRX straps would be more suitable.

Just be careful, really easy to over do it without realising.

[chris j]

Just started using them as part of my strengthening of my dodgy shoulders. Started with really simple support holds and inverted rows, progressing to dips and archer rows (keep one arm straight out to the side as you pull up with the other).Also just moved L-sits off the floor onto the rings. Taking it all slowly slowly though. The other exercise I do is holding a handstand position - the gymnastics progression book I picked up (Overcoming Gravity) specifically recommended this and L-sits to counteract all the pulling exercises.

[rodma]

Just started using them as part of my strengthening of my dodgy shoulders. Started with really simple support holds and inverted rows, progressing to dips and archer rows (keep one arm straight out to the side as you pull up with the other).Also just moved L-sits off the floor onto the rings. Taking it all slowly slowly though. The other exercise I do is holding a handstand position - the gymnastics progression book I picked up (Overcoming Gravity) specifically recommended this and L-sits to counteract all the pulling exercises.

do L-sits not use your pecs and lats, as does climbing? 

[csl]

Thanks. I'll look at Gimme Kraft then.

Some of these look good.

[chris j]

do L-sits not use your pecs and lats, as does climbing? 

I wouldn't say my pecs feel especially worked after them (on the mat or the rings). The book emphasises the importance pushing your shoulders down and back (and arms turned out with fingers pointing back when on the mat) which for me seems to put a lot of it at the back of my shoulders.

[rodma]

do L-sits not use your pecs and lats, as does climbing? 

I wouldn't say my pecs feel especially worked after them (on the mat or the rings). The book emphasises the importance pushing your shoulders down and back (and arms turned out with fingers pointing back when on the mat) which for me seems to put a lot of it at the back of my shoulders.

And you presumably don't use those muscles for climbing either then???

[chris j]

And you presumably don't use those muscles for climbing either then???

I would think I don't use the stabilizing muscles in anything like the same way when climbing. I'm not an expert - the author of the book is presumably a sight more informed and recommended this combination for healthy shoulders for gymnasts.

Going back to the book since I'm at home, the L-sit/V-sit progression is recommended because it's a pulling exercise where the shoulder is in extension (behind the body) rather than in front of the body like pull-ups and presumably most climbing movements. So it uses primarily scapular retractors, posterior deltoids and external rotators.

For me I included it in my non-climbing workouts as the author had the exercise as an essential in his chapter on structural balance in shoulders (and the importance of balance for injury prevention) and as that's what I'm looking to achieve it made sense for me. YMMV.

[mrjonathanr]

Is ghat Gimme Kraft?

I have Building Thd Gymnastic Body. Have you -or anyone else- used that?

[Paul B]

Polish Dave. nuff said. 

[rodma]

I understand why you ar doing it, i just find some of the simplistic statements written in books troubling.

if these are weak muscles on you that you are trying to engage by using your bodyweight, it's far to easy to use your larger muscles to manipulate your shoulders into the same position, say mid-traps to pull your shoulders back and either your lats and/or pecs to pull your shoulders down.

I'm not saying for one second that you are not performing the exercise correctly, it's just that it is very easy to think that because your one's shoulders are moving back and down during an exercise, that you one must be doing it right.

i started doing deep pullups with my hands touching each other in front of my face, with palms away, whilst concentrating on using my lower traps to keep my shoulders back and down. at first i could only do assisted pullups without my shoulders moving forward or upwards, but have slowly built up to bodyweight. i found this more successful for working my lower traps, since it is hard to cheat with your hands together. tense your pecs and your shoulders move forward, but if you are already in a position where your shoulders cannot easily move forward it is really easy to cheat. i am a cheat, cos i climb and climbing generally involves tensing whatever is necessary to perform the move, not what is the best muscle group to perform a move.

I'm sure when

[Krank]

hello Jon,

I think the rings are excellent, i would use them for all normal exercise like press ups ect, as they are good for stabilisers.

then look into the static strength elements like german hangs, vertical support, front/back levers.

i always really enjoyed basic ring strength 1-3
1,
2,
3,

loads of good stuff in BTGB.

[LB]

Knee injury means I haven't climbed for a while. Training is mainly fingerboarding (v similar to what Barrows describes), pull ups and ring work.

Ring Work: Push Ups (rev grip), Roll aways, Flyes, Dips (Bulgarian and Standard), Icecreamakers, Rows (in Half Lever), L-Sits, Archer Pull Ups.

Also, Back Lever Progression, which I imagine works a lot of the same muscles as deadlifting.

My shoulders are in a better state than a while. However, this will be partly not climbing.

I've been told not to climb. I'm still not lifting.

 
 

[chris j]

i am a cheat, cos i climb

I'm trying to be good because I got fed up of the constant impingement I had at the front of my shoulders for longer than I can remember. Spent maybe 10 years doing the classic rotator cuff exercises religiously and then a physio I saw in October pointed out that because I was not starting with my shoulders in a neutral position I was cheating and not engaging the rotators at all...

We'll see how it goes, I've only been doing these new exercises since Xmas.

[Oldmanmatt]

I'm working my way back after a Rotator Cuff injury (read, agonising fuck up) and in conjunction with a lot of Theraband work and free weights; the rings (basic, as described several times above) have been instrumental in rebuilding shoulder stability.

Ironically, I injured my shoulder attempting to do an Iron Cross (which I had been working upto for many months) when, simply, too tired (just had to squeeze in an extra set).

I'm almost ready to start climbing again, after a year. I even managed our V1 circuit today with a 6kg weight belt.

Now, just need to lose 15kg and I might be pushing 7C by autumn.


Probably not...


But if I can get back to projecting 7C by next summer, at 45, I shall be able to hold my head up again.

[mrjonathanr]

loads of good stuff in BTGB.

Hi John, how are you doing?

Thanks for the links, I'll have a play with those later. That first gymnast - minibeast!

Actully it's the Chapel copy of BTGB I'm currently reading. Is it yours??

[TheTwig]

:icon_beerchug:I don't think that rings are specifically good for core, unless you become able to perform routines that warrant you a 9,00 at the Olympics.
The kind of core needed in climbing is a lot more complex than holding an L-seat, in my opinion. But I could easily be wrong.
I think that rings are awesome to develop a particular kind of upper body power that can then trained again specifically for climbing.
We must remember that a ring session can also give a very different stimulus to the body while resting fingers for example. Not everyone has the luxury of endless time or enormous climbing walls or close rocks, as to avoid anything else than climbing itself in its various forms.
I consider lifting - and if I were to do rings I'd consider rings as well - as an active rest day, climbing wise, in which I can potentiate the climbing specific training of the days before and after with a full body recruitment. Lifting increases testosterone production also and this is crucial for strength training.
I've only tried rings once at The Works, and they felt good.
Just my opinion, no science, punter level, etc...

If rings are an active rest day you aren't trying hard enough Muscle ups / levers are damn good for the core. I highly recommend Overcoming Gravity (gymnastics book) for gymnastics training advice. It's very well written and accessible to mortals. I managed to get hold of it in ebook online if anyone would like I could probably share it.

[chris j]

I highly recommend Overcoming Gravity (gymnastics book) for gymnastics training advice. It's very well written and accessible to mortals. I managed to get hold of it in ebook online if anyone would like I could probably share it.

+1 It's quite a weighty tome in paper form. Needs a good read to get the best out of it, not really a book to skim through.

[Dexter]

:icon_beerchug:I don't think that rings are specifically good for core, unless you become able to perform routines that warrant you a 9,00 at the Olympics.
The kind of core needed in climbing is a lot more complex than holding an L-seat, in my opinion. But I could easily be wrong.
I think that rings are awesome to develop a particular kind of upper body power that can then trained again specifically for climbing.
We must remember that a ring session can also give a very different stimulus to the body while resting fingers for example. Not everyone has the luxury of endless time or enormous climbing walls or close rocks, as to avoid anything else than climbing itself in its various forms.
I consider lifting - and if I were to do rings I'd consider rings as well - as an active rest day, climbing wise, in which I can potentiate the climbing specific training of the days before and after with a full body recruitment. Lifting increases testosterone production also and this is crucial for strength training.
I've only tried rings once at The Works, and they felt good.
Just my opinion, no science, punter level, etc...

If rings are an active rest day you aren't trying hard enough Muscle ups / levers are damn good for the core. I highly recommend Overcoming Gravity (gymnastics book) for gymnastics training advice. It's very well written and accessible to mortals. I managed to get hold of it in ebook online if anyone would like I could probably share it.

I think that nibile is just a machine so doesn't require muh rest just some wd40 and he's good to go
On a serious note, I think it depends what you do in a session, for example a session doing fingery boardwork will leave my forearms dead but core and stuff mostly ok whereas a cave session leaves my core ruined but fingers fine, as such I aim my active rest to whats ok eg core and stuff if I've been on the board, fingerboard if I've been in the cave.

[Nibile]

I think that nibile is just a machine so doesn't require muh rest just some wd40 and he's good to go

Ahahahahahah! I would need cans and cans of that!

[Nibile]

If rings are an active rest day you aren't trying hard enough

I'm not trying at all. I don't have rings.
 

[ghisino]

just wondering if opinions on rings are changed since 2015...

more specifically i'm interested in:

-rings and shoulder health. It is not obvious if they are good or dangerous, or rather how to use them well in this regard.

-rings as groundwork for anything that isn't forearms. I'm looking at a couple of projects for next spring that are challenging my whole body much (much!) more than my fingers...big moves, controllings wild swings, hard lockoffs in a roof etc... Hard to replicate that specifically with my current local resources (even gyms somehow lack the required steepness!).