[chummer]

Following a brief but strong warning to climbers on Gresham's Facebook page he followed it up with this on his Master Class Coaching Acadamy Facebook page. Makes for interesting reading though forgive me if I'm preaching to the converted. Interestingly all my own finger injuries in the last 15 years, of which I've had about 3 bad ones all happened whilst using an open handed grip. I love dirty boney crimps and sexy slopey slopers in equal measure by the ways...anyways, here's what Neil says:

MORE INFO ON CORRECT USE OF GRIPS FOR CAMPUS & FINGERBOARDS:

There still seems to be much confusion on this topic so please find some more detail below. It is common knowledge that 'full crimping' is a dangerous grip to use repeatedly for campus & fingerboards. Full crimping is when the fingers are bent acutely closed at the joint nearest to the hand and hyper-extended (bent back) at the joint n
earest to the tip. The thumb is then locked over the tip of the index finger. This grip intensifies the strains on the pulleys which hold the tendons flush to the bones and hence pulley injuries are common. Additionally, repeated full crimping places a lot of strain on the joint capsules and can lead to painful swelling. It is fair to say that this grip has been 'phased out' by many modern elite climbers.

However, half-crimping is completely different - this is when the fingers maintain a 90 degree angle at the joint nearest the hand and stay straight at the joint nearest the tip, with the thumb resting next to the index finger. This grip spreads the load more evenly between the tendons and pulleys and hence, not only is safer for general training (in comparison to full-crimping AND open-handing) but it trains both the tendons and pulleys the same time.

The open-handed grip is the grip used for pockets, or when 'dragging' on edges. It is a more passive form of grip because it relies on friction as well as resistance to tension in the tendons. HOWEVER, when open-handing (in comparison to half-crimping) it is much easier to apply a load to the tendons that is too harsh as the effect of friction may cause you to hang on, whereas with the half crimp you will be more likely to let go. Additionally, the open-handed places minimal load on the pulleys and hence if you don't train it then you run the risk of them becoming dangerously weak. It is clearly unwise to avoid half-crimping in training, and then to be forced to use it on the crag.

Another consideration is that the half-crimp is a more active grip, meaning that it relies more on strength (to resist leverage) and less on friction, so in an overall sense it will get you 'stronger' than the open-hand grip. The half-crimp will build strength for open-handing and full-crimping (to a limited degree) whereas the other grips are exclusive to themselves. In other words, the half-crimp is virtually a one-stop shop for grip training. This is supported further by a key theory of isometric / static training which states that strength gains are limited to a narrow radius around the chosen joint angle.

Whilst I may not have physically collected data here, I can honestly vouch that in 15 years of coaching full time, I have never seen anyone blow a finger tendon or pulley using the half-crimp grip whereas I've seen countless major injuries both full-crimping and using the open-hand grip. This is also true of my own climbing and virtually all my friends who climb hard. The only injuries I have heard of or encountered from half-crimping have been relatively minor - the sort which can usually be 'climbed through'.

It's a fact that every strong climber uses the half-crimp grip regularly in training (although many do not use the full crimp). It is completely untrue to say that modern elite climbers open-hand everything. Whilst they may 'try' to open-hand certain holds to save energy, they still have to half-crimp when the chips go down! Here's a quote from Dan Varian from Beastmaker: "If you avoid crimps you will be at a loss on 90% of the world's hard routes and boulder problems". To me, this says it all. To tell climbers not to half-crimp is like telling sprinters they're not allowed to run fast.

Another person to support this is Rob Russell, the head coach at Westway who has coached more juniors to a podium position than any other coach in the UK. Here's a quote from him: "Of course you shouldn't tell juniors to open-hand everything! Get them to half crimp but do it slowly and gradually". And here lies the message, to be a strong climber you need to be good at both grips, but the smart advice is to use the half-crimp as the utility grip for most training sets and to do a small and strategic amount of open-handing. It's up to you if you want to trust a study which didn't even test the key grip that all the pros use!! Additionally, you'll note that some of the fingerboard manufacturers tell you to open-hand everything in their instructions, and this is presumably because they are paranoid about giving the wrong advice. Trust the Beastmaker crew, MCA and any good climber worth their weight!

Nice one Neil for sharing the knowledge. A physio mate of mine often bangs on about injuries being more likely to happen at both extreme ends of range, ie, full crimp and open handed as these put the most strain on your tendons, this apparently applies to all your limbs

[shark]

I'm a big fan of the half crimp for training so I'm on the same page as Neil there in regarding it as the "utility grip for most training" . It's interesting what he says about being able to carry more load through dragging - but isn't it the skin itself that is carrying that small extra load rather than the tendons? And even if it doesn't arent we looking for intense high loads to produce a training response, ie higher potential risk/ higher potential rewards. Also we probably arent comparing like with like. Open handing is often pocket training using less digits whereas no one (I know) half crimps using two or one finger   

Also the queen of half-crimping Eva Lopez has this to say about her own training:

"Yes, you are right! I am using the open grip in that picture It's my favorite position on small holds instead of the half-crimp. Personal taste aside, it's less harmful for pulleys and tendons.

Personally, I started to use this grip type just after I completely torn my ring finger's A2 pulley (no functional trace of it was left! :-/). I had been climbing only for 2 years by that time, so I got really scared, and I made a decision:
to work the slope grip for almost every type of hold in order to prevent more injuries. I love to climb...you know.

Because of that, when I pull on small holds, I intuitively apply the open grip.

If you read carefully the poster, you will notice that in the 1st line, 3rd column, I recommend the following:

"Grip type used: starting with the half crimp or open crimp position and proceeding to training with the open hand crimp"

So...half crimp is correct on small edges, but depending on the relative length of your fingers, specially of your pinkie (I think this fact affects the choice or tendency to use one grip type or other) and your objectives, you can train the half crimp or the open grip. But I strongly recommend you to try to get used to the open grip."

[andy_e]

I've no idea when I'm crimping if I'm half- or full-crimping. I could google image search but I'm pretty sure all I'd get would be pasties and pies. Anyone got any links to any decent half crimp info?

[shark]

I've no idea when I'm crimping if I'm half- or full-crimping. I could google image search but I'm pretty sure all I'd get would be pasties and pies. Anyone got any links to any decent half crimp info?

http://www.beastmaker.co.uk/pages/training

Scroll down to "Weird grip terminology"

[andy_e]

Ta. Also found http://www.moonclimbing.com/blog/school/campus-boarding/ which will also help me work out a good routine.

[Drew]

I could google image search but I'm pretty sure all I'd get would be pasties and pies.

You'd be surprised

[abarro81]

1. Whilst I agree that half-crimping is safer a lot of the time than dragging or crimping, I think the main reason it's safer than open is that you generally do it with 4 fingers, which is inherently safer than dropping fingers off. For me, half-crimp back 3 (the only way I can hold small things back 3 - my fingers wont fit on an edge in any other way) is the most tweaky of all grips, except perhaps index/pinky monos. Half crimp is also more tweaky than open on slopers IMO. Half-crimping front 3, or any 2 finger combos is also way more tweaky for me than dragging them. So actually I disagree with Neil that half-crimp is safer than open, for me it's more dangerous, it's just that 4 fingers is less dangerous than splitting fingers.

2. I still think that what grips you 'should' train in directed exercises is predominantly going to be determined by what grips you're using in your other training and what your objectives are. If you're bouldering on crimpy peak lime everyday but planning on a trip to Buoux you're going to want all of your directed exercises to be done on pockets.

[Will Hunt]

This comes as something of a revelation as just about every "official" source says that when you train you should go open handed. Esp on campus boards and finger boards. I have tried to stick to this when using fingerboards and campus boards (which is rare) but find I'm even weaker when using this grip, partly because it makes it impossible to get full contact with the hold from your shorter fingers. Looking forward to getting on a campus board without the irrational fear of getting injured if I half crimp!

[abarro81]

no one (I know) half crimps using two or one finger   

A lot of people back 2 on a half crimp (at least the ring finger is half crimped). For me it's the only way I can fit back 2 on a small hold, Stu does it out of choice 'cos he's a freak.

[shark]

no one (I know) half crimps using two or one finger   

A lot of people back 2 on a half crimp (at least the ring finger is half crimped). For me it's the only way I can fit back 2 on a small hold, Stu does it out of choice 'cos he's a freak.

Actually when I think about I was half-crimped when I back2'ed the Beastmaker messing around with Steve. He couldn't do it.  Go me. Obv it had to have more to do with finger morphology than strength which is of course another thing that influences choice of grip for training or in the real world.

[rodma]

Looking forward to getting on a campus board without the irrational rational fear of getting injured if I half crimp!

Fixed that for you

I'm sure he said to build up slowly to it and that is the most imporant thing (slowly as in months/years, rather than weeks)

when open-handing (in comparison to half-crimping) it is much easier to apply a load to the tendons that is too harsh as the effect of friction may cause you to hang on, whereas with the half crimp you will be more likely to let go.

I'm all for training half crimped, it is essential imho, but doubt that anyone has the reaction time to let go halfway through hearing a pulley explode.

to counter his anecdotal injury evidence, all of my injuries (and hand for that matter) have been done with fingers in half crimp, or being forced from half crimp to open position, the worst of which have been full rupture of A2 and broken hook of hamate, but i'm not a wad, so probably wouldn't figure in his scale of things

[TobyD]

I'd say there is a strong case for doing some (limited, and very controlled) full crimp in training, if this is something you will resort to when the chips are down when it counts. Progressive stress proofing or whatever you want to call it, but surely injury is more likely when doing something your body is totally unused to.

I agree with barrows re the 4 / 3 finger issue. When you drop a finger, it puts the collateral ligaments on the lateral side of the 3rd finger at much greater risk, whatever grip you are using.

[Probes]

Not 100% sure if this was touched on above. When i hang a flat edge/campus my index finger is open as is my little but the middle two go into a half crimp... the morph of my fingers make this happen.. i also find/found that after prolonged campus training that my index seemed to be the one at risk of injury, in the open position. It seemed to be that the lateral lingaments were stretching thus the knuckle joint was opening up. In a half crimop position the overall tension exerted down the finger seems to stabalise everything thus doesnt seem to be as susseptable to injury. When open handed especially pockets you stick a bit of twist in there and the open knuckle in its weaker position is def more likely to injure. Thats my take/ramblings on it.

Ive also had two pretty bad injuries both open handed... dropping the little finger and the linkage ligament bit to the ring went... and hanging a duo pocket and the colaterals on the knuckles took a right hammering. Of all the years crimping, and being a longridge local, crimps dont get too much fiercer there to be fair.. ive never done myself any damage boneing  away.

[jwi]

Intresting! I can't campus, or basically hold any flat hold, in any other way than open. I have not suffered any finger injuries since the late 90s. OTOH my pinky is thicker than most climbers thumb, so what do I know?

[abarro81]

If I hang a campus rung I naturally am open on all but my mid finger which is half crimped, for me this always feels like the one 'at risk', but then i guess I've had more pulley injuries than open handed issues. Goes to show how individual some of this stuff is I guess.

[tomtom]

Should we call it 'imping'?

[douglas]

I'd like to know which grip is fundamentally stronger, in terms of biomechanics. It seems to me that there is an inherent drawback to using half crimp because there is a greater moment about the hand. Is that true? Plus, full crimping engages the thumb, so it's a five finger grip. I certainly think crimping has the greatest potential and I train it on my fingerboard.

[abarro81]

I'm not sure it matters does it?

[douglas]

It matters when I want to pull hard. If I train half crimps more than full crimps I will never be able to fully utilise (what I think is) the stronger grip because my forearms are only adept at holding the half crimp position. If I risk injury and train full crimps, my muscles are able to hold the crimp grip to their greatest potential plus the crimp is intrinsically stronger? I don't know.

[TobyD]

I'd like to know which grip is fundamentally stronger, in terms of biomechanics.

I would guess that isn't a satisfactorily answerable question. There are too many variables in angle of hold, wrist position, individual morphology. Position of the elbow / shoulder may come into play with mechanical advantage on tendons, as would the position of your body in relation to the hold. Basically,  Just try and pull as hard as you can, as long as it's not too hard eh.

[shark]

I'd like to know which grip is fundamentally stronger, in terms of biomechanics.

For me it's easier to hang beneath a hold open handed than crimped. When it comes to moving off a hold I find it doesn't make too much difference if I'm moving dynamically, but if I have to lock deep then I have to crimp. When open handing your palm is parallel to the rock, when you're locking lower than shoulder height the wrist angle makes this difficult to maintain.
When the going gets tough a crimp for me always feels the most secure, probably because I've wrapped my thumb over.

[abarro81]

I think youll get a lot of transfer half crimp to crimp. As for it being harder to hold than a crimp - that's partlywhy gresham was saying its better training.

 If you want to be able to climb well outside of British lime then you'll need to train all grip types anyway. Even in Britain, land of the crimp, its occasionally necessary to half crimp (think slots, pinches etc) so well worth training.

For me I tend to think that I do plenty of crimping and half crimping outside and on the wave so most of my fingerboarding is open. I campus with a 'natural' grip, which is open except for my mid finger

I still don't think it matters which is 'fundamentally stronger'. It sounds to me like you  just want an excuse to crimp all the time 

[Sasquatch]

I'd like to know which grip is fundamentally stronger, in terms of biomechanics.

The one that suits the hold and move you are using/doing. 

Every hold and every move is slightly different, so expecting perfect transference from the board is unrealistic.  A half-crimp has the most transference across both open hand and closed crimp and is least likely to injure, hence the recommendation for training using a half-crimp.

Any other questions....

[account_inactive]

I've been injured both both with crimped/half crimped and open handed. The injuries were all different. Fancy that!

[rodma]

I've been injured both both with crimped/half crimped and open handed. The injuries were all different. Fancy that!

That's just ridiculous, you should have taken the opportunity to let go when using the other grip types, unless of course you injured yourself hitting the ground