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Benchmarking survey (Read 66346 times)

slackline

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#25 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 11:52:56 am
done it but dont bench/deadlift and have no idea how long i can hang edges/how much weight i can pull up.
Also not done sport for a while so mine probably looks a bit weird

It would be useful if people don't already know some of these could hold back on filling things in and find out over the coming days and then complete the form.  At the moment besides the bouldering grades the most complete field is maximum pull-up reps.

EDIT : I didn't know I was 186cm and 84kg  ;D
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 11:58:47 am by slackline »

Dexter

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#26 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 01:59:57 pm
done it but dont bench/deadlift and have no idea how long i can hang edges/how much weight i can pull up.
Also not done sport for a while so mine probably looks a bit weird

It would be useful if people don't already know some of these could hold back on filling things in and find out over the coming days and then complete the form.  At the moment besides the bouldering grades the most complete field is maximum pull-up reps.

EDIT : I didn't know I was 186cm and 84kg  ;D

Do i have to do some sport climbing too?  ;D
also how do people go about testing how small an edge they can hang? I can hang small edge bm 2000 and the slopey 2 finger pockets but not sure about smaller as ive ever tried it/had a smaller one to try on
and as far as weight stuff I dont really have any acess to any of it

abarro81

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#27 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:16:38 pm
Hence my suggestion about using BM holds instead of sizes - more people have access to a BM 2000 than will be bothered to find edges and measure them. I'm not even sure where I'd find appropriate edges. I think anyone who was bothered enough to do the survey would do it again after a modification; plus it would allow comparison between grips types, which I had kind of thought was the main useful thing which might come out of it.

andy_e

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#28 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:21:04 pm
But I can hang smaller edges than those on the beastmaker, and I'm sure a lot of people can. Plus I don't have access to a beastmaker.

Dexter

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#29 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:28:06 pm
does this not also depend on the material of the edge and its angle/level of incut?

abarro81

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#30 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:35:47 pm
But I can hang smaller edges than those on the beastmaker, and I'm sure a lot of people can. Plus I don't have access to a beastmaker.

I still think
more people have access to a BM 2000 than will be bothered to find edges and measure them

1 armed hangs should remove any issues with holds being too big, and anyone who can do multiple 1 armers on the small BM2000 edges and doesn't fill in font 8c and F9b can be excluded as they probably have no legs. There could still be a category for smallest edge for those who know. I just don't think that the current survey is detailed enough to yield any useful results, especially given how many people wont be able to answer the questions.  :sorry:

slackline

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#31 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:36:46 pm
I think anyone who was bothered enough to do the survey would do it again after a modification; plus it would allow comparison between grips types, which I had kind of thought was the main useful thing which might come out of it.

Go for it then.

I used the "Forms" under Google Docs to design the existing one, I'm sure you can do the same.

andy_e

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#32 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:41:20 pm
The beauty of beastmakers is that the holds are generally all the same size. If one person measured the beastmaker hold, then everyone could use that measurement for the "smallest edge" category. Or perhaps a "smallest hold on the fingerboard that a lot of people have therefore everyone has to have definitely been on at some point in their life unless they chose an alternative product which is likely as there are tens of different models on the market" category.

Serpico

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#33 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:43:40 pm
I think finger strength is such a biggie that it needs to be right. How about using a campus rung? they're more common than BM's, particularly for an international audience. I propose testing 3 grips on the smallest campus rung (incut edge up) - 4 finger open hand, 3 finger open hand, and 4 finger half crimp.
I'd also like to see a test for core strength, but I'm not sure which is best, possible dishes?

rodma

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#34 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:45:42 pm
I think finger strength is such a biggie that it needs to be right. How about using a campus rung? they're more common than BM's, particularly for an international audience. I propose testing 3 grips on the smallest campus rung (incut edge up) - 4 finger open hand, 3 finger open hand, and 4 finger half crimp.
I'd also like to see a test for core strength, but I'm not sure which is best, possible dishes?

 :agree:

Especially when no BM 2000's are even remotely similar in frictional qualities. There's no chance I am going to test myself on mine, maybe next time I'm in the depot I'll do it.

r-man

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#35 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:50:11 pm
The hang duration question would probably also be more useful for a standard size rung. Eg. how long can you hang a 1cm flat edge?

I assume this is two handed?

nai

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#36 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:51:51 pm
I think finger strength is such a biggie that it needs to be right. How about using a campus rung? they're more common than BM's, particularly for an international audience. I propose testing 3 grips on the smallest campus rung (incut edge up) - 4 finger open hand, 3 finger open hand, and 4 finger half crimp.

Mounted at what angle?


I'd also like to see a test for core strength, but I'm not sure which is best, possible dishes?

I was wondering this, technique can be crucial, so I was thinking something dead basic like planks?

andy_e

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#37 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:53:34 pm
Amen serps. Surely the angle doesn't matter as it's not going to be a slopey campus rung! Luckily my local has just had a campus board installed.

Stubbs

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#38 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:55:21 pm
Different campus boards are incut to different amounts and have different sized 'smallest' rungs.

Perhaps we should view this survey as the pilot and work on it after we have some results?

Serpico

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#39 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:58:28 pm
I think finger strength is such a biggie that it needs to be right. How about using a campus rung? they're more common than BM's, particularly for an international audience. I propose testing 3 grips on the smallest campus rung (incut edge up) - 4 finger open hand, 3 finger open hand, and 4 finger half crimp.

Mounted at what angle?



I was thinking most people would have access to a campus board at a wall, which I've presumed generally to have a degree of standardisation ie: 15 deg?


Quote

I'd also like to see a test for core strength, but I'm not sure which is best, possible dishes?

I was wondering this, technique can be crucial, so I was thinking something dead basic like planks?

Maybe, it's a standard core test for other sports, I think that most climbers would find it too easy though with test times being minutes long. But it's the specificity that's the key.

slackline

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#40 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 02:59:59 pm
If anyone wants to design a comprehensive study controlling all variables then these are all good ideas and would form the basis of deriving a grant proposal to a funding body (which body that would be I've no idea, would the BMC fund such research?).

Ideally you wouldn't even use BM or campus rungs you want to test everyone on the same device, but as everyone is spreadout across the country/world and there is no money to pay for travel expenses that isn't going to happen (so yes the next best thing is consistent finger board or campus rung, but there will be variation in friction/mounting/conditions).

As it is I've no money to do so and am intending on doing the summaries and analysis in what little spare time I have, so I stuck a few simple and generalisable measurements that most people can assess easily* and enter the data for and I'll do some summaries and simple statistical analysis.

The reason I stuck the survey up in the first place was because people had started posting details in the thread itself and thats a really inefficient way of collecting data as it would mean "someone" who wanted to analyse the data would have to sit down and transcribe all the individual posts into a spreadsheet/database before it can be looked at.  So when I saw that people were starting to post details I quickly knocked up the survey so that people wouldn't be wasting their time posting details in the thread and then nothing would ever get done with it.


I think I'll leave things as they are see how this goes, if it gets a decent response rate (currently upto N = 44 with varying degrees of completeness), then it might be worth running it again.  For now though consider what has been set up as a pilot that will provide useful insights for future surveys.  Its a trade-off between actually getting something vaguely interesting done or just posting what you can do to a forum thread and nothing being done with all the data.





* Really its not that hard to take a tape measure or ruler next time you use the finger board at the wall.

Serpico

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#41 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 03:00:07 pm
Different campus boards are incut to different amounts and have different sized 'smallest' rungs.


Typically the rungs are either Metolius or Woodgrips, same difference?

andy_e

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#42 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 03:01:28 pm
Typically the rungs are either Crusher Holds Metolius or Woodgrips, same difference?

How could you miss that out? Probes will be over soon to dish out a  :spank:

Stubbs

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#43 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 03:04:42 pm
Typically the rungs are either Metolius or Woodgrips, same difference?

Nope, not if you want something standardised! There's definitely variation between angles of campus board installation too.

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#44 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 03:08:50 pm
Good work slackers.

Are the "max hangs" one or two handed?

slackline

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#45 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 03:13:04 pm
I envisaged Max hangs as being two handed.

Future versions could expand on this and have two handed, left and right with associated sizes for each.

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#46 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 03:39:10 pm
can someone provide an example of how their max weighted 2 hands pullup relates to their max 1 handed weighted/unweighted pullup, and/or 1 armed lat machine?

(i tend to work one-armed taking weight off, rather than two-armed with added weight)




btw the hang is intended as one armed or two armed? if two armed i find it a dubious benchmark past a certain level, as:
1) it becomes a matter of skin/rung compliance more than finger strenght. Too dependent on room temperature and on the edge of the rung (sharp or filed down?)
2) sub-1cm rungs ain't very common

if one-armed i need to make a new entry :)

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#47 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 03:46:05 pm
I meant to say, but good effort for actually setting up the survey. The fact that everyone has different ideas about how to control the variables just shows it's a tricky experiment, but you've got people thinking, and it might lead to something useful.

 :thumbsup:

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#48 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 03:56:53 pm
I tried to fill it in but got so confused about max redpoint grade that I gave up  :blink:.



Edit: Okay I perserved with some guesswork. My results are fucked due to injury etc. File under anomaly.

slackline

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#49 Re: Benchmarking survey
October 11, 2012, 04:31:28 pm
The fact that everyone has different ideas about how to control the variables just shows it's a tricky experiment

I'm surprised no one has raised the issue of variation in the style of problem or route ascended (i.e. does it make sense to have your max boulder problem 7A on a slab comparable to a 7A roof).  Far more important than the relatively minor differences in rung size/angle/conditions/etc. of a finger board.

, but you've got people thinking, and it might lead to something useful.

Hopefully so, I just need to make sense of it.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 04:49:51 pm by slackline »

 

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