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Vehicle control services parking ticket (Read 38107 times)

psychomansam

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I'm currently ignoring letters about a private parking ticket, not for the first time since 2012 either. I really don't see why, reading this thread, I should change tactic? What do you think Sloper?

Have heard nothing more on this currently.
Also currently heard nothing about the bus lane ticket I appealed a couple of months ago.

lagerstarfish

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for fuck's sake man, promoting paediatricians is one thing, but abusing bus lanes is unforgivable

you sicken me

 :spank:

Sloper

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Indeed, it's not like there'll be another pedallo along in a minute is it?

Mike Tyson

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 :sorry

Sorry for dragging this topic back up. I got a ticket from UKCPS back in November last year. Overstayed my welcome in a car park on a retail park in sunny Whitehaven. I approached carparkingticketappeals.org as suggested by JB. They took my £16 payment and I've had a few emails from them but it all went quiet. I was driving my parents car so the nasty letters have been going to them. They have started panicking, as I'm sure lots of people would, so I chased the appeals lot up. Got an email from them saying the company has ceased trading, and to apply for a refund from PayPal for my £16. Any recommendations for next course of action? My folks don't know about the latest development, I'd rather not tell them and cause more panic if possible.

tomtom

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turnipturned

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Don't do anything, and the last thing you want to do is reply to them.

I had one from Private parking eye or some bollocks, I opened the first one and then didn't even open the following letters. Apparently they get more and more aggressive, then threaten with a small courts claim, but in reality I think the only thing they can feasibly do you for is 'trespassing' which they will never do.

Just sit it out.


turnipturned

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p.s. they stopped sending letters after a couple of months, I was a bit gutted, I never get any post anymore!

Sloper

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The law changed a couple of years ago to make these tickets enforceable, whether of course they actualyl do seek enfocement is another matter.

tomtom

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The law changed a couple of years ago to make these tickets enforceable, whether of course they actualyl do seek enfocement is another matter.

Yes - the link I posted above is about the appeals process - which apparently is quite sucessful... the post isnt super easy to understand (to me anyway) but does seem to contain a path of action...

Tom

adamb

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I got a private parking ticket last year, so went through the hassle of trying to understand what's best to do...

Some of this is from memory, so don't hold me to account over it...

As Sloper said, the law changed a couple of years ago and now some companies do indeed chase you down and press ahead with court proceedings. They even sometimes win, apparently. It seems like most companies still only do this in a small minority of cases. So the "just ignore" strategy often works. But sometimes it doesn't. Some companies are a bit keener than others, and I think you can find out who does and who doesn't chase you with a bit of googling.

As Tomtom said, there is a f&ckton of info out there. Most useful sites are moneysavingexpert as linked by Tomtom (where it is reasonably well signposted but still takes a good hour of pottering around on it to understand the processes/issues) and this one: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

On that latter forum there seem to be plenty of retired lawyer types who just have an axe to grind with the private parking companies and are happy to offer free legal advice if you message them. Which is nice.

From what I remember of my case, here's the sequence of events:

1. Received parking ticket in post.

2. Decided to go for the "don't ignore" approach. First step was (and I think always is) an appeal to the private company themselves. They should all have a very clear appeals process. This had to be done within 30 days iirc. I don't have the wording of this stage of my appeal, sadly (I think I just copied and pasted a slightly adapted pro forma from the internet). Important thing was that you must not give them any extra ammo - so don't admit liability in any way (i.e. don't say "I was there but the ticket fell off the window"; or "I only overstayed by 1 minute"). Also, don't provide info on who the driver was. They can only chase the registered keeper, and the fact this may be a different person to the driver on that day is something you can rely on at a later appeal.

3. Company rejected my appeal. This is standard, it seems. They include a huge load of legal documents which explain why they are going to win, ruin your life, own your soul etc. This documentation makes good firelighting material. Importantly, the company have to issue you a code to appeal to the independent body, POPLA. So then you get on the case and appeal to POPLA, and this is the stage where if you get it right then you should be successful. Make sure you appeal before the deadline using the code you've been given. Copied at the bottom of this post is the wording I used in my appeal which I mostly got from an online pro forma and adapted it to my circumstances. If you have a good read of that, then you'll see some of the legal arguments that you can rely on. For info, my vehicle was in a "free" car park that had a time limit on it. If your case is different from mine, you might need to go on the forums linked above to find some other legal arguments, but there are plenty out there.

4. I won at that stage but apparently even if you mess up and lose the appeal to POPLA you can keep fighting. POPLA decisions are binding on the operators but not on you. You'll need to do your own research on the above forums etc.

Hope that's not too confusing. Feel free to msg me if you want any more info...

Adam


POPLA appeal:

On [date] [parking company name here] issued a parking charge notice because the above vehicle
was allegedly recorded on their automatic number plate recognition system as having stayed
in [name of carpark] for 2 hours 43 minutes on [date].
 
My Appeal is on multiple grounds.

1. The amount of the charge is disproportionate to any possible loss incurred by [company] (for an overstay of 43 minutes in a car park which is free to use for up to two hours). I also consider the PCN to be a penalty because [company] have alleged a breach of contract but have not quantified their alleged loss (which cannot include business running costs nor the POPLA fee). Furthermore, the charge is punitive, contravening the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997.

2.  I do not believe that the Operator has demonstrated a proprietary interest in the land, because they have no legal possession which would give [company] any right to offer parking spaces, let alone allege a contract with third party customers of the lawful owner/occupiers. In addition, [company]'s lack of title in this land means they have no legal standing to allege trespass or loss. If that is the basis of their charge, I require [company] to demonstrate their legal ownership of the land to POPLA.

3. I contend that [company]are only an agent working for the owner, and that their signs do not form a contract without any consideration capable of being offered. VCS – v - HMRC 2012 is the binding decision in the Upper Chamber which covers this issue with compelling statements of fact about this sort of business model.

4. I believe there is no contract with the landowner/occupier that entitles [company] to levy these charges and [company] therefore has no authority to issue parking charge notices (PCNs). This being the case, the burden of proof shifts to [company] to prove otherwise so I require that [company] produce a copy of their contract with the owner/occupier and request that the POPLA adjudicator scrutinises it.

5. Even if a basic contract is produced and mentions PCNs, the lack of ownership or assignment of title or interest in the land reduces any contract to one that exists simply on an agency basis between [company] and the owner/occupier, containing nothing that [company] can lawfully use in their own name as a mere agent, that could impact on a third party customer.

6. The notice to keeper is not compliant with paragraph 9 (2)(h) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 in that it does not identify the creditor. The operator is required to specifically "identify" the creditor not simply name them on it .This would require words to the effect of "The creditor is ..... " . The keeper is entitled to know the party with whom any purported contract was made. This [company] has failed to do and thus they have not fulfilled all the requirements necessary under POFA to allow them to attempt recovery of any charge from the keeper. In short, [company] has not met the keeper liability requirements and therefore keeper liability does not apply. As [company] have neither named the driver nor provided any evidence as to who the driver was, I submit I am not liable to any charge.

7. The BPA code of practice contains (Section 21.1 to 21.5) contains detailed guidance on the manner in which Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) can be used.  I have had no evidence that [company] have complied with these BPA Code requirements for ANPR issued tickets so require them to evidence their compliance to POPLA.

I submit, therefore, that this purported charge is not legal and [company] should cease harassing me
forthwith.

Should you require further information, please let me know

gme

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I have had 5 or 6 of these over the years and there is only one answer.

Ignore them. It works.

Its a bit awkward if its in your wifes/parents/friends car as they get the mail. But that the only way to go. As soon as you start correspondence they have got you. I dont even think its a person at the end just a machine sending out standard letters so they wont read any of your correspondence if you send it.

IGNORE

Sloper

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I'm not sure if UCTA applies given the legislation/delegated/secondary legislation to allow for the enforcability of these tickets: I'd suggest that the better source would be the recent consumer distance selling contract regulations which are so inpenetrable in some regards even some of the leading (junior) barristers can't quite be sure what they mean. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf

(warning this is so fucking tedious)

As for the grounds of appeal, epic fail I'm afraid. (this is a very short response as I actually ahve some work to do, clients to abuse and disabuse etc)

1. Missing the point.

2. Misocnceived. The parking company doesn't have to establish a propriety interest in the land: rather that the land owner has assigned / contracted properly for them to exercise the rights of the occupier.

3. Wrong, subject to the regs above, consideration is deemed executory consideration.

4. fair enough, the parking company has to establish both locus standi and their right to issue

5. Seems like bollocks to me.

6. Looks like total bollocks

7. looks like complete bollocks

If you're going to appeal i. deny its you / your vehicle or that you were in breach of the time limits etc

psychomansam

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I'm currently ignoring letters about a private parking ticket, not for the first time since 2012 either. I really don't see why, reading this thread, I should change tactic? What do you think Sloper?

Have heard nothing more on this currently.
Also currently heard nothing about the bus lane ticket I appealed a couple of months ago.
The parking ticket disappeared as always.

My bus lane appeal was rejected. I've appealed to the independent wotsit, who will probably decide against me, even though the signage really is bullshite. They've had the stuff for ages.

adamb

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Interesting professional opinion on the strength of my appeal letter, Sloper! I'm happy to take your word for it, as I have no clue.

I guess that I either won on point 4 or else POPLA just take a pretty sympathetic stance to appellants! From vague memory, they said that the appeal was successful because the company couldn't provide some particular documentation to prove stuff - so perhaps consistent with point 4 being the only valid one!

Anyway, good luck with this one, Mike!

Adam

Sloper

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It's true, Graham White Solicitors and Roxbergh Debt Collection are indeed one and the same person - Michael Sobell.

It was a great wall though back in the day.

Sloper

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Interesting professional opinion on the strength of my appeal letter, Sloper! I'm happy to take your word for it, as I have no clue.

I guess that I either won on point 4 or else POPLA just take a pretty sympathetic stance to appellants! From vague memory, they said that the appeal was successful because the company couldn't provide some particular documentation to prove stuff - so perhaps consistent with point 4 being the only valid one!

Anyway, good luck with this one, Mike!

Adam

I imagine it wasn't your drafting rather Cntrl + C etc, I must admit I didn't do a lot of research into the text but it has all the hallmarks of 24 Ct cock drafted but a committee of morons.

But at least I have a new qualification after two weeks I am now an almost fully trained Obs & Gyne practitioner.

gingerninja

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is there a thing where the ticket is with the driver of the car and not the owner, and the owner is under not legal obligation to tell them who was driving, unlike speeding tickets. sure i did this with a ticket a year or so ago. i got one last year and went down the ignore route and they left me alone after 3 or 4 letters.

 

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