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Eva Lopez Training plans (Read 214961 times)

Sasquatch

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#50 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 28, 2012, 10:13:25 pm
Running is an interesting example.  If you look at classic 5-10K training, you build easy/steady volume up until you're consistantly running 50-70 miles per week, then add a small amount of "fast running".  But in a given week, your "high intensity running" only accounts for about 5% of your total running.  How many climbers do you know who do that?  A few of the pros, but that's about it.... 
As you get to shorter and shorter running distances, you see a higher percentage of "high intensity" at maybe 10-15%, but still nothing like what you see climbers doing.

Lots of (most?) climbers do it. All the ones who are happily out cruising easy trad, with the occasional shot at something a bit harder. Ok, I'm exaggerating, but seriously if doing lots of easy mileage worked for climbing, then the top climbers would be different people. I have a couple of friends who are training for big walls - they've been quite disciplined about doing sets of 45min non stop climbing at lower levels, gradually building up to around f7a sport climbing. I'll let you know if they start sprinting up 8C's! 

Running's probably not a great analogy. Legs are well equipped to carry bodyweight, but fingers are slightly smaller! The big difficulty with climbing isn't getting stronger muscles, it's getting stronger tendons.

Now we can get off topic again!!!!

I agree lots of climbers log easy mileage, but at the wrong level for this type of training.  Someone who's currently running a 4:30 mile and who's goal is a 4 minute mile isn't going to get ANY benefit from going out and running a bunch of 9-10 minute miles.  The same as a guy who's currently climbing 7c and who's goal is to climb 8b isn't going to get any benefit from going out and doing a bunch of 6a's.  Training has to be deliberate and strike just the right level. 

You're right about the guys training to do big walls not getting to 8C, but that'd be like taking a marathoner and asking him to run a 10sec 100M.  Just not gonna happen. 

Have you ever seen the Pro WC guys training plans?  The amount they do in a day is more than most people do in a week.  I think it's a pretty fair comparison....

shark

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#51 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 28, 2012, 11:18:42 pm
Sorry but you've still missed the point of the picture. The picture is to illustrate the fact that the 'shape' of the fingers, referring specifically the amount of 'pulp' as she calls it at the end of the fingers is a large determinant of the ability to hang small holds, she also quotes previous studies to this effect, and also her own study which shows that training on small edges doesn't transfer to grip strength to the same degree as training on larger edges with added weight. This is the reason she recommends training strict half crimped throughout.

Rob Barker's famed ability on shallow pockets is down to the flexibility of his first joints which turns them into skyhooks, alledgedly.

rodma

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#52 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 09:01:25 am
You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.

Fair dos, didn't really have the time. Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commments

It's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.

If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.

The point Eva was making that training on small holds has certain limitations because of skin and conditions and  having the right shaped fingers.

I'm not sure what point you are making but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that   

my non-point was that you can train on small holds if you're not attempting to drag them, which has very little to do with shape of fingers. if, for instance when you crimp, you can have all of your tips beautifully lined up on a small edge, that open-handed you could not, then the only reason that you would not be able to hold it half-crimped would be down to weakness, nothing else, just weakness, and that is easily addressed


Sorry but you've still missed the point of the picture. The picture is to illustrate the fact that the 'shape' of the fingers, referring specifically the amount of 'pulp' as she calls it at the end of the fingers is a large determinant of the ability to hang small holds, she also quotes previous studies to this effect, and also her own study which shows that training on small edges doesn't transfer to grip strength to the same degree as training on larger edges with added weight. This is the reason she recommends training strict half crimped throughout.

I'm definitely missing the point, since the picture is not half-crimped so does not demonstrate a difference between different climbers abilities to hold small holds half-crimped. Half-crimped does not necessarily mean the fingers parallel to the surface of the hold, you can jack the fingers higher up to burrow your tips further in, or do people hsometimes have a lot of pulp on the top (nail side) of their finger.

 :sorry: I hadn't read far enough down to her other posts about training half-crimped and I'm glad that is what is recommended.

gme

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#53 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 11:37:55 am
Sorry if this sounds basic but i just want to clear something up. Is this a supplementary training program that you do as well as climbing loads or do you really just need to train for 30-40 mins once every three days for 9 weeks with a whole week of rest in the middle to get really strong fingers??? If so its ideal for my busy lifestyle.

However either i must have understood it wrong, people are not describing it right or she has no idea ! If its true great i will be strong again in 6 months time.

We went through a period in the 90s of training 1 day on two off under a scientific approach dreamt up by Matt "smythe" Smith and it really didn't work. The big difference i see with climbers today is the volume that they do compared to us and can see where we went wrong with our approach.

I understand how training has moved from the old approach of trying to climb at our limits until exhausted then resting a lot to the more common and probably better method of training at 80-90% max and stopping before failure but restricting rest. but this method seems to have the two easy bits of this (80% effort and lots of rest) so how does that work.

Maybe Smythe was just a genius and we should have listened. ( I stopped when he started warming up his hands under a grill between hangs.)

rodma

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#54 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 11:54:08 am
If I have a hard fingerboard or campus session, this is instead of a hard bouldering session.

When I used to campus at the wall, I would warm up sufficiently to campus, then do my routines on that using all grip types, then boulder afterwards, but my grip would be so worked that I was reduced to doing exceptionally easy problems (well easy on the grip anyway), but I still believe that there is a benefit in bouldering after training, just as long as you are not expecting to do anything hard.

If you are only interested in getting strong fingers and not working anything else, then I think your assumption is correct, but the 30-40 mins is presumably following warm up, not the total time taken out of your daily routine.

If i had the energy to do so, i would have less intense, more frequent sessions, ideally campusing/fingerboarding every day, but never going for pb's during these sessions.

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#55 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 12:35:53 pm
Good point from Rodma that if your only goal is stronger fingers ... then these protocols work. If you want to become a better climber ... oops, sorry, that might be  :off:

So back to bone idle musing on the subject of stronger fingers:

Taking a week off after strength work is not how it works (surprise, surprise).

Doing lots and lots of strength work is how it works. Intense effort, recovery, intense effort, recovery. After a while you will recognize what your body is telling you. How hard you need to go without injury is one of the things the training teaches you. Top weightlifters will be pumping iron hard, morning, afternoon, evening, night. They will go for proper increased single rep max what, once or twice a month? At the top of the game, they might only go for true single rep max in an important competition. Let's face it, on your own on a rainy afternoon you are unlikely to get the performance that you might when there is a gold medal at the Olympics at stake, eh, even if you think you are trying really fucking hard.

Using weights as a transition technique to smaller holds and the new fingerboard ... sounds a bit like NICROS/HIT strips to me? Or is there more to it?

shark

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#56 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 12:43:04 pm
Sorry if this sounds basic but i just want to clear something up. Is this a supplementary training program that you do as well as climbing loads or do you really just need to train for 30-40 mins once every three days for 9 weeks with a whole week of rest in the middle to get really strong fingers??? If so its ideal for my busy lifestyle.

Whilst she is advocating prioritising this sort of training so you rest and recover properly she isnt saying to do it and exclude everything else (though it might make an interesting experiment)

Things she has covered in her blog in her blog include that "You can't reap and sow at the same time" as in there are periods you should be foccussing on training and periods when you should be crushing and you can't get the best of both at the same time.

In answer to someone who wanted to combine finger training and go bouldering she suggested:
•   Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday: Rock Bouldering
•   Monday and Thursday: rest
•   Tuesday and Friday: fingerboard training

What I have been doing is after the max hangs is a selection of non-fingery bodyweight and free weight exercises after. Similarly I reckon aerocap/stamina circuits after would be OK too.


gme

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#57 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 01:06:25 pm
Shark

That makes more sense. Its complimentary to climbing and not not a substitute for climbing. That makes more sense.

However it makes a bit of a mess of Sasquatchs training program. To me that looks like he is going to end up being good at running.

I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.

Compare that to her regime where i would only be doing 120 secs, does not add up.

rodma

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#58 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 01:17:03 pm
I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.

Excellent, you have found what works for you, no reason to tinker with what you are doing at all, until/unless you stop seeing any gains.


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#59 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 01:51:08 pm


I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.

Compare that to her regime where i would only be doing 120 secs, does not add up.

Studies into isometric training protocols have shown that 60-120 secs total work time give the best strength gains. If taking 2 Paracetamol is good for you it doesn't follow that taking 20 must be better.

abarro81

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#60 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 01:54:54 pm
So my 1kg a day protein powder addiction might not be working? Tell that to my guns.  :strongbench:

Serpico

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#61 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 01:57:04 pm
This Link might not work, it's to Google books.

Nibile

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#62 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 02:09:09 pm
Shark

That makes more sense. Its complimentary to climbing and not not a substitute for climbing. That makes more sense.

However it makes a bit of a mess of Sasquatchs training program. To me that looks like he is going to end up being good at running.

I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.

Compare that to her regime where i would only be doing 120 secs, does not add up.

I used to have similar sessions, doing 6 sets of 10 secs hangs on each hold, for many holds. It's good for building a strong base, but it has to be seen as a foundation for proper strength training. As I've said here before, now I am down to 3 sets of max hangs (sub 10 secs on certain holds), and I went from using bodyweight to adding 6 to 10 kg on all hangs, including monos, 45 and shallow pockets (on a BM).
On certain grips (ring finger monos, back2 on small pockets and 45), the 3 hangs are so strenuous that  can take up to 1 week to have another strong session.

abarro81

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#63 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 02:12:32 pm
How warmed up would you be before stating to 'count' hangs towards your 60-120s? I usually find it very hard to draw a line between warming up and starting to hang at my limit. Would the fairly hard hangs at the end of a warm up - just a bit below the hard ones that definitely 'count' - be included in that? Also 60-120s per muscle group presumably? So if I just do front 2 and back2, should I do 60-120s on each since they're presumably different muscles to some extent?
(RE half-crimping: I don't do much crimping or half-crimping on a fingerboard, my logic being that most of my time indoors uses half-crimp holds and most of my time outdoors is crimping since it's usually on British lime)

Nibile

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#64 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 02:20:46 pm
Fully warmed up.
Anyway in a typical session, I'm constantly alternating max and sub max hangs, because on certain holds I am a lot stronger and I can't add too much weight, because it's a hassle, I keep the same weight and hang for longer. Also a lot longer.
So, to target the stronger prehensions at their max, I prefer to switch to one handed hangs, with or without assistance.
And the circle is complete: from one handed, to Lopez, to one handed!
Ringkomposition!

Dr T

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#65 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 02:31:17 pm
Could a similar style of progression tactics be used on sloper - increasing the angle of the sloper after each weighted cycle rather then decreasing the depth of the crimp?
Thought's oh great gestalt entity that is ukb...
 :-\

Nibile

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#66 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 02:36:20 pm
Probably!
The problem is friction. I don't think I'll be touching the 45's before October!!!

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#67 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 02:38:46 pm
Serpico

But is her training program on advocating between 30 and 50 secs (3-5 hangs) per session. Therefore not in line with your 60-120.

The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.

abarro81

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#68 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 02:39:06 pm
I find the BM slopers too dependent on temps, conditions etc - some days they feel easy others they're nails. Would make it very hard to track progress.

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#69 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 03:24:57 pm
Serpico

But is her training program on advocating between 30 and 50 secs (3-5 hangs) per session. Therefore not in line with your 60-120.

The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.

It's a much smaller muscle mass in the forearms so I don't see an issue with less hang time, especially when you factor in the warm ups as well. If you look at the chart I linked to previously you can see that the smaller muscle groups seemed to respond with less total contraction time than the larger groups. It's not a switch where 59 secs will do nothing and 60secs will, it varies between muscle groups, as well as individuals, depending on their genetics and previous training experience. What makes the Lopez work interesting is that she's done this study with climbers who have substantial previous training history and she's seen good gains (within the context of the exercise).

gme

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#70 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 03:58:25 pm
I will try to read it later when my head is in a better place, been looking at text all day.

I am not saying it does not work but i thought it seems very similar to what was being done in the early to mid 90s. Malc used to do a lot of max deadhangs for rediculously short periods of time, to the point where it didnt appear that you were doing anything.(deep breath pull on with two hands, let go with one, fall to the ground) and we generally worked on 6-8 secs max.

However i thought that the general consensis now was that volume is the key, hence repeaters, encores, 10 days on 1 day off stuff.

Matt Smith did a lot of research into pretty much what she is saying and followed the idea for a good period of time but without enough improvement for us to take too much notice, perhaps he was the wrong man to judge it on. Most of us couldnt stand the rest periods. When your on the dole with loads of time climbing for 1 or 2 hours every three days was pretty brain meltingly boring even with Richard and Judy to watch.

Sasquatch

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#71 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
June 29, 2012, 04:39:22 pm
This is getting to be some really good discussion now. 

However it makes a bit of a mess of Sasquatchs training program. To me that looks like he is going to end up being good at running.

Understand how it could look like that, but there are a couple of considerations:
My two ARC session involve over 120 minutes of actual climbing time
The outside day is generally doing between 20-30 different boulder problems, 8-10 hrs, no idea on total attempts
I've been climbing for 17 years, so I have alot of volume in my background
This is the amount of climbing done at this stage in my training, other stages (periods) have far more volume
A limiting factor for me in climbing harder is body composition, hence the running.

The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.

I haven't tested a 1-2 sec max hang yet, but my 10(3) sec hangs were about 10% heavier (total weight-BW+addedwt) than my BM repeaters when I started, which seems quite a bit closer to max. 

@Serpico - Any other good recommendations for training books?  Always on the lookout.

lmarenzi

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#72 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
July 02, 2012, 08:50:23 pm
Serpico

But is her training program on advocating between 30 and 50 secs (3-5 hangs) per session. Therefore not in line with your 60-120.

The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.

It's a much smaller muscle mass in the forearms so I don't see an issue with less hang time, especially when you factor in the warm ups as well. If you look at the chart I linked to previously you can see that the smaller muscle groups seemed to respond with less total contraction time than the larger groups. It's not a switch where 59 secs will do nothing and 60secs will, it varies between muscle groups, as well as individuals, depending on their genetics and previous training experience. What makes the Lopez work interesting is that she's done this study with climbers who have substantial previous training history and she's seen good gains (within the context of the exercise).

If you are bouldering for strength would you also recommend the 60 to 120 seconds? I am thinking good holds (for fingers) so probably quite steep, if you have a 4-6 regular moves at your limit that might take you 20 seconds to complete before falling off ... Should I be limiting myself to 3 to 6 tries before warming down and going home?

I read somewhere that Adam Ondra was working on this problem in Italy that he could only try once a day, in the video it looked like it might have taken him 45s odd?

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#73 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
July 02, 2012, 09:03:06 pm

The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.

Don't know about that.

If you can do 7 on 3 off for a minute you are doing a 6 rep exercise. The first three reps are piss. But if you fall off 5 seconds into the last rep, you have obviously exceeded your six rep max capability. In other words, BM style 6 rep max exercises ARE maximal hangs, just the maximal part comes at the end of the minute, not in the first three seconds. Only works if it really is at your limit though, which is where all the weight and smaller holds and whatnot come in.

I agree doing several sets of different repeaters at an intensity well below your 6 rep max for hours on end with limited recovery is unlikely to build strength.

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#74 Re: Eva Lopez Training plans
July 02, 2012, 09:57:41 pm
I think what's important to remember is that either approach will reward you with gains. You could spend hours and hours debating the benefits of either system, but in reality this is only fruitful if you're extremely close to your potential or on very, very limited time.

I've tried both systems and had good gains from both. My training partner has tried yet another system and he's had almost equal gains from that... so there it is!

No need to rewrite the rule book quite yet IMO.


 

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