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Smalldale Quarry: Warning, Loose Bolts (Read 36773 times)

danm

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Smalldale Quarry: Warning, Loose Bolts
May 07, 2012, 01:05:03 pm
Dangerously loose bolts have been reported at Smalldale Quarry in the Peak District. Climbers are advised to avoid climbing at Smalldale until the situation can be clarified.

More on the BMC website here: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/loose-bolts-warning-at-smalldale-quarry

shark

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Thanks for the heads up. Gibson's work presumably?  ::)

danm

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A quick update regarding the two loose bolts at Smalldale Quarry can be found here: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/update-on-smalldale-quarry

Read the BMC advice on bolts to help decide whether you can trust a bolt or not. If you equip routes, make sure you follow good practice and check your work before letting others use it.

petejh

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Thanks for the heads up. Gibson's work presumably?  ::)

Are you for real Shark?
Place enough bolts and you will place some bad ones. Rolling eyes are a tosser's response. It happens more often than the punter ignorant of equipping/reequipping realises and most of the time, thankfully, nobody gets hurt.

Dangerous game climbing  - you could always get an IRATA company in to rebolt all sport crags and have the BMC pay them hey.

petejh

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That was a rush of blood but I still don't agree with the rolling eyes etc..

shark

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Thanks for the heads up. Gibson's work presumably?  ::)

Are you for real Shark?
Place enough bolts and you will place some bad ones. Rolling eyes are a tosser's response.

He's done it before and a friend decked out. Doing it once is bad enough.

I clip into bolts after placing them and jiggle around on them. I'm pretty lax and impractical but didnt need IRATA training to think of doing that.

Yes the rolling eyes was inappropriate. Should have been this  :furious:


petejh

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He's done it before and a friend decked out. Doing it once is bad enough.
..

That's unfortunate but it happens.

Old mild steel bolts snapping under bodyweight also happens - I've now snapped something like 8 of them by clip-sticking and hanging on them during re-equipping - the majority being the same first ascensionist's bolts.

Don't blindly trust bolts is the obvious conclusion.

I clip into bolts after placing them and jiggle around on them. I'm pretty lax and impractical but didnt need IRATA training to think of doing that.

You might. There are valid resons why that isn't always (or even often) done though - one is the cure time required for glue-in bolts, around an hour, and the unavoidable thing called 'life' which presses on your time. Standard practice is to do test blobs at start and finish and if these are ok it's a good indication that all the bolts in between are ok. You'd think that would be good enough but I've pulled the first bolt out of a route after re-equipping with glue-ins - the rope coming tight from the belayer whilst I was lowering off the route after climbing it being enough to pull the bolt out; both test blobs had set perfectly; go figure. I was obviously blindly trusting that it would be ok. Test blobs at every bolt is not practical nor good for the state of the route, and would use up more glue.  All the active re-equippers I know in North Wales have had glue-in bolts not properly set on them despite following a sensible procedure.

Don't blindly trust bolts unless you're a sheep.

kc

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  All the active re-equippers I know in North Wales have had glue-in bolts not properly set on them despite following a sensible procedure.

Just out of interest, what glue have you lot been using?
I'd hate to make assumptions but I have heard rumours (not necessarily in Wales) of people using the cheap shite from places like screwfix/toolstation!
http://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-polyester-resin-380ml/33554
I have always been super wary of budget resin for bolts and have always opted for the tried and tested construction brands such as Hilti and Fischer.
What is hard to understand though is how the resin did not continue to mix between test blobs. If there is a blockage in one of the compartments the applicator will just cease up as the plungers are locked together. Perhaps the glue was past its exp/date or had been used/stored below the recommended temp?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 10:53:58 pm by kc »

Bonjoy

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I've had test blobs cure while stuff in the rock is still soft. I put it down to difference in temp and moisture between test blob and glue in rock. The glue in the rock cured eventually, it just took a while longer. Also as KC said re-used resin tubes can end up with one of the outlets partially block which will affect the mix ratio. For this reason it's important to properly clean outlets before re-sealing and check for blockages after opening before re-use.
Take it from me, paying IRATA bods to re-bolt stuff, whilst a plausible/cynical way of outsourcing risk, is unlikely to improve the competence of bolt placements. Local activists are far more likely to be experienced bolters on rock (far more complex than bolting concrete) and have a greater incentive to get it right.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 09:45:13 am by Bonjoy »

Johnny Brown

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If I was going to pay anyone to do any bolting I'd want every bolt pull-testing before signing off. That's how it's done in the workplace, and the only sure way to catch the odd bolt not curing properly - which does happen. We're even required to repeat the pull-test every six months. If that's not realistic (and I'm not suggesting it is) then maybe rebolted routes should be tagged until someone has at least done a check by hand.

Bonjoy

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I've generally (but not always) abbed the route to strip the old bolts after putting new ones in and checked the new ones as I went. If this isn't done it makes a lot of sense to leave a note/tag saying when the bolts went in and that they have not been checked yet.

shark

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Old mild steel bolts snapping under bodyweight also happens - I've now snapped something like 8 of them by clip-sticking and hanging on them during re-equipping - the majority being the same first ascensionist's bolts.

Don't blindly trust bolts is the obvious conclusion.


This happened to me when I was gearing Hidden Sign on abseil. Mild steel bolts corroded by sea air and snapping is to be expected. You can (or should be able to) tell those sort of old bolts are untrustworthy. The corrosion is often visibly evident in pitting on the hangers and you could make that sort of assessment when climbing the route.

In contrast there's no physical reason for a modern recently placed bolt not to be trusted. The only reason you would  believe it was untrustworthy was if you believed that shoddy practices are prevalent in the placing and subsequent testing of the bolts.

petejh

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  All the active re-equippers I know in North Wales have had glue-in bolts not properly set on them despite following a sensible procedure.

Just out of interest, what glue have you lot been using?
I'd hate to make assumptions but I have heard rumours (not necessarily in Wales) of people using the cheap shite from places like screwfix/toolstation!
http://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-polyester-resin-380ml/33554
I have always been super wary of budget resin for bolts and have always opted for the tried and tested construction brands such as Hilti and Fischer.
...

There's some annecdotal stuff in N.Wales that the bolts to keep an eye on are the ecos with red resin. Probably a cheapo hardware store polyester epoxy like in your link. Not many of them around though - think there was one on the single bolt lower-off of Pink Pinkie Snuffs It, which I pulled out by hand with a claw hammer a few years ago.

NWBF uses Masonmate epoxy acrylate: http://www.masonmate.com/pdf/datasheets/Data%20Information%20-%20Epoxy%20Acrylate%20-%20Styrene%20Free%20Resin%20-%20Masonmate.pdf

... and have also used the masonmate glass capsules containing epoxy acrylate for a few bolts on the ormes in the past although they're a pain in the arse and more trouble than they're worth (to smash bolt in you need a rubber mallet or you damage the bolt/induce corrosion, the rubber mallet doesn't last very long, they're tyring to place, the fixe bolts we used welds' are different enough to the rest of the bolt to induce galvanic corrosion)

kc

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I've generally (but not always) abbed the route to strip the old bolts after putting new ones in and checked the new ones as I went. If this isn't done it makes a lot of sense to leave a note/tag saying when the bolts went in and that they have not been checked yet.
I will always haul back up the route not just to strip my gear out but tidy up. On every bolt I will clean of excess glue, brush it smooth and pat it with a chalk ball whilst being very careful not to disturb the placement. This way I can be sure that all the visible glue has set. This is really the least and at the same time the most you can do. It is best not to load test the bolt for a few hours by which time it's dark.

kc

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We use this jizz in the Peak. Good stuff, a bit sloppy though and a shite applicator.
It is also alkaline resistant which can be an issue apparently on wet lime so I'm told.
http://www.uksealants.co.uk/product.asp?idproduct=57

Bonjoy

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Just to be clear, when I said not always I can only think of not doing it once, on Thormen's and I went back and stripped later.

kc

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Didn't think you put resins in that did you? If you did then well done and I wouldn't blame you for not hauling back up that beast again.

Bonjoy

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No I didn't. Think I've always checked/stripped any routes I've put resins in (not that it amounts to a huge number)

petejh

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Shark - Look you're just wrong on this (imo) :chair:

This happened to me when I was gearing Hidden Sign on abseil. Mild steel bolts corroded by sea air and snapping is to be expected. You can (or should be able to) tell those sort of old bolts are untrustworthy. The corrosion is often visibly evident in pitting on the hangers and you could make that sort of assessment when climbing the route.
You're completely missing the point. What you said is true but it isn't the whole story, which is this - a dangerously corroded mild steel bolt that could snap under body weight looks the same as a perfectly safe stainless bolt - once that stainless bolt has had a long enough time to have acquired all over, but superficial, surface corrosion. That is one of the reasons that lots of perfectly ok stainless expansion bolts have been replaced with glue-ins on N.Wales lime. (Its also the reason I turn away when seeing someone clipstick or climb up the old bolts on the diamond! 2 snapped there on me and Tommy last year or year before - you couldn't easily tell the difference between the mild steel and stainless ones, yet you want to try to make that call on the lead???). In short - you can't make a foolproof assessment of an expansion bolts integrity once it acquires surface corrosion. You can't with a glue-in either, but you can at least know it's made of stainless if it's an Eco, Petzl glue-in, Fixe or Titt bolt.

In contrast there's no physical reason for a modern recently placed bolt not to be trusted. The only reason you would believe it was untrustworthy was if you believed that shoddy practices are prevalent in the placing and subsequent testing of the bolts.
Yes there is!  :rtfm:
Firstly - Shoddy practices and the taking of short cuts have been a hallmark of our species since we crawled out of the swamp (on a short cut to the savannha?). You have no reason (other than direct experience) to believe that the person driving the car in front of you is going to do something stuipid and unexpected resulting in your death on the way to work but it happens everyday.
Secondly - As I illustrated earlier, you don't even need to be following particularly shoddy bolting practices for something to get missed. The people doing it aren't flawless machines. And some people placing bolts will be shoddy - that's an unaviodable fact of life in the real world, not some perfect world.

For these resaons you should not be trusting somebody else's skill or lack of in placing bolts where your own safety is at stake.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 06:07:48 pm by petejh »

Johnny Brown

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Quote
...and subsequent testing of the bolts

And I think we've established no one tests the bolts either. They just place them as best they can, and then leave.

jcm

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For these resaons you should not be trusting somebody else's skill or lack of in placing bolts where your own safety is at stake


I think this is foolish cant, certainly as an argument to justify leaving unglued bolts behind you.

It doesn't matter what you think climbers should do. The reality is that the vast majority of climbers simply assume bolts are safe unless there's some visual clue otherwise, and equippers need to work within that reality because otherwise they're going to kill someone sooner or later.

I don't really understand the rest of what you're saying. You say that in spite of checking every equipper sometimes finds the glue hasn't worked - I don't doubt it - and then you go on to say that no-one actually bothers to abseil down and check the bolts afterwards. I would have thought that if everyone knows the glue doesn't always work that made it even more obvious that abseiling down to check the bolts was mandatory.

I have the impression the BMC guidelines just assume the equipper's going to abseil down once the glue should have set and test the bolts - they say it's a 'good idea' to leave a note if this hasn't been done.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 06:07:01 am by thesiger, Reason: fix quote »

shark

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petejh

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For these resaons you should not be trusting somebody else's skill or lack of in placing bolts where your own safety is at stake

I think this is foolish cant, certainly as an argument to justify leaving unglued bolts behind you.

 ::) It's really not rocket surgery you silly cant.

Depite agreeing with the BMC procedure you mention, direct experience - not theoretical 'armchair' argument -  has proven that even experienced people make errors. You would be wise to realise this / you would be unwise to treat fixed gear, placed by persons unknown, as 100% trustworthy until you have checked it yourself.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 11:21:04 am by petejh »

jcm

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I'm quite sure it's sensible for the punters to bear in mind that mistakes can happen. However, that doesn't alter the fact that if equippers leave behind unglued bolts they are making a fatality distinctly possible and it will be largely their fault.

I'm pretty shocked to hear that some, maybe even most, equippers think it's OK to walk away from the cliff without having tested the bolts they've left, which is the impression I'm getting.

petejh

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I'm quite sure it's sensible for the punters to bear in mind that mistakes can happen. However, that doesn't alter the fact that if equippers leave behind unglued bolts they are making a fatality distinctly possible and it will be largely their fault.

No argument from me that the bolter would be found largely at fault in that situation but who cares, blame is no consolation to somebody with a broken body from decking out. I'm sure you'd just rather not have an accident given the choice no? And treating bolts as if we live in a perfect world where mistakes aren't made i.e. with a mindset of: 'they're stainless glue-ins therefore they should be 100% reliable and the glue must be set because bolters always place them properly', which appears to be what you and Shark are saying, is an unbelievably stuipid mindset to adopt and goes against my beliefs of self-reliance. Can't really believe you and Shark are trying to argue the point.

Let me ask you this - do you have the same beliefs about in-situ pegs or threads on trad routes? Should they be tested for integrity by the person who placed them? It's all climbing after all, isn't it...

 

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