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Re Nige's post how would you like the Peak Limestone guides split?

Geograhically i.e. North and South
33 (50%)
By type i.e. Natural(ish)Crags and Bolted Quarries
20 (30.3%)
Pink anasazi
7 (10.6%)
Another type of split - please specify
6 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 65

BMC Peak Limestone guide(s) (Read 22583 times)

dave

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#25 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
November 30, 2011, 10:45:07 pm
Bottom line for me is it will be ridiculous if I can buy a selected guide that includes both Stoney and Horseshoe next to each other, but the definitive alternative doesn't.

You're going climbing at Horseshoe? Where's your self recockingspect?

Nigel

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#26 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 01, 2011, 12:06:28 am
Why haven't you polished the brass moustache?

Bury the beds.

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#27 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 01, 2011, 06:33:10 pm
I agree with what Dave said.  Moreover, rather than it being a choice between buying one rockfax or two BMC guides if you want to cover all the natural lime crags, what we should recognise is that in practice most people who want one will already have the rockfax before the BMC guides are released, so they are even less likely to then shell out £50 for two new guides.  I think by far the best option if it is practicable is one guide, if not then I'd prefer the split-by-type approach.

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#28 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 01, 2011, 07:04:52 pm
If places like Dovedale, Beeston Tor etc. end up in a book that no-one buys it'll be a damn shame as there are quality routes at these sort of crags that are suffering from a lack of traffic. Looseness on natural Peak limestone seems to correlate with vegetation so I think maintaining interest in these places should be a priority for the BMC.

As I understand it the bolted hell-hole quarries are the most popular crags in the Peak and can therefore be left to fend for themselves, particularly as I imagine their main users are Rockfax fans rather than definitive guide enthusiasts. By doing this maybe a single volume could be produced?

Maybe a super-deluxe sport quarries book could be produced (complete with a sheet of orange rock-scar stickers so the owners could keep the topos up-to-date thamselves?) as a profit centre to offset an exhaustive natural crags guide!

Duncan Disorderly

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#29 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 02, 2011, 11:09:19 am
you produce two books but sold as one title, a bit like the carneddau/ogwen guide from a few years back that had two softbacks that slotted neatly into a hard cover. 

I've been monitoring this thread with interest (and was hoping to attend the meeting too but number one daughter had other ideas) and I can't see how it'd be commercially viable to have the 2 guides split either by area or any other demarcation. As I wasn't at the meeting I'm not sure the reasons for not going for the epic tome but to me the potential size of this doesn't seem like a barrier really, I take a rope and rack in a sack so a large paperback wouldn't be a problem to me.

If there's an issue with this that I missed then I vote for nai's idea (above), 2 books split (probably by geography) that are bought as one.

From my point of view there are times that I want to go to the Dale or Tor (most of the time) but other times when a bit of accessible quarry clip-ups at say Masson Lees or Horseshit fit the bill (if I'm going out with someone who climbs below 7a for instance). I also want to have a guide that covers Dovedale etc. as there's loads I've not been on down there. One guide (either split or one volume) done in the format of the new BMC guides (albiet looking a bit like War and Peace) would do all this justice IMO.

I personally would much rather buy this than the Rockfax but I really think most people will buy the selective guide if it's a toss up between this and 2 definitive guides that don't contain the crags that they want to frequent.  :shrug:

:D

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#30 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 02, 2011, 11:22:45 am
Quote
2 definitive guides that don't contain the crags that they want to frequent.

Eh? They'd contain all the crags.

Duncan Disorderly

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#31 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 02, 2011, 11:50:07 am
Ooops missed a bit out there, trying to be too quick and getting sidetracked by work....

"2 definitive guides or just one that doesn't contain all the crags they want to frequent"

:D

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#32 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 02, 2011, 12:00:21 pm
Just to say thanks for the input everyone, all very useful to see what people think, and all informed stuff (I've not joined in as it's better to see what you think)

Niall

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#33 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 02, 2011, 12:15:25 pm
Personally, I'd probably only buy either of the guides if one had all the 'good' stuff in. I know all the stuff at my usual haunts well enough for it to not quite be worth buying a stoney/tor/chee dale etc guide, and wouldn't get to dovedale/beestone etc enough to justify a whole guide on the southern peak. (At the moment I just have the old rockfax.) I suspect, however, that I would buy a guide with all those in (at the expense of horseshoe and the like being ditched to another guide or pdfs).
I'm not saying that's necessarily how it should be split, it doesn't really bother me - if it's split so it feels worth buying a guide I will, if not I wont - just my take on what a stingy local lime-lover would/wouldn't buy.

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#34 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 03, 2011, 12:31:08 pm
I remain to be convinced that two guides are needed. The new format has a very much higher formation density. Froggatt mixed what was effectively three old style guides: all of Chatsworth, most of Froggatt, lots of new stuff, all the bouldering (for every two routes listed there was one problem listed). By the time you have included all the limestone worth climbing or bouldering (and put the really obscure or overgrown stuff in webguides) I think it will easily fit in 600 pages. Sometimes I do think I must be going a bit mad to be one of the few people pointing this out.

Jim

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#35 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 03, 2011, 05:23:37 pm
why not go with the old lancashire guide format, 1 enormous encyclopedia that you need an extra rucksack to carry around?

dave

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#36 Re: Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 03, 2011, 06:00:20 pm
why not go with the old lancashire guide format, 1 enormous encyclopedia that you need an extra rucksack to carry around?

+1

People should be memorizing the guide on the bog, not taking em to the crag.

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#37 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 03, 2011, 07:46:52 pm
+ another 1

petejh

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#38 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 03, 2011, 09:58:59 pm
As I wasn't at the meeting I'm not sure the reasons for not going for the epic tome but to me the potential size of this doesn't seem like a barrier really, I take a rope and rack in a sack so a large paperback wouldn't be a problem to me.

If there's an issue with this that I missed then I vote for nai's idea (above), 2 books split (probably by geography) that are bought as one.

 :goodidea:
As an outsider to the peak this makes most sense to me, I'd be well up for buying either one big tome or a split book bought as one (what a lovely thing that would be, old school cool). I can't imagine I'd ever shell out for two seperate guides to Peak limestone sorry - and it seems like commercial suicide to me.

nai

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#39 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 04, 2011, 09:49:22 am
Don't forget that people like to carry their guide up High Tor, Wildcat, Beeston, etc so keeping it sub Lancs brick size would be desirable, I'd hate to think of someone getting hurt by a falling guidebook.

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#40 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 05, 2011, 06:45:56 am
why not go with the old lancashire guide format, 1 enormous encyclopedia that you need an extra rucksack to carry around?

Yet the recent Lancashire reprint was normal sized. Format changes and different paper thickness make a huge difference. I just dont see the new limestone guide as a single volume being a monster. Although I may be underestimating what is out there being more focussed on grit guidebook work I struggle to  believe I'm that much out. I said the same about Moorland fitting easily as a single volume and am being proved right despite lots of new deevlopment.

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#41 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 05, 2011, 07:58:39 am
Yet the recent Lancashire reprint was normal sized. Format changes and different paper thickness make a huge difference. I just dont see the new limestone guide as a single volume being a monster.
But the did ommit several crags i the reprint or at least gave less coverage (reason I never bought it)
I said the same about Moorland fitting easily as a single volume and am being proved right despite lots of new deevlopment.
However Martin did say a decent amount of the less important areas would be online at a chew cragsman meeting about 2 years ago as the design of book would not allow it to be any thicker than the froggatt guide (or something like that it was two years ago).
Not sure how much of that is true now they have it all set out and ready to print

Bonjoy

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#42 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 05, 2011, 11:24:55 am
why not go with the old lancashire guide format, 1 enormous encyclopedia that you need an extra rucksack to carry around?

Yet the recent Lancashire reprint was normal sized. Format changes and different paper thickness make a huge difference. I just dont see the new limestone guide as a single volume being a monster. Although I may be underestimating what is out there being more focussed on grit guidebook work I struggle to  believe I'm that much out. I said the same about Moorland fitting easily as a single volume and am being proved right despite lots of new deevlopment.
You might be surprised, there’s a whole lot of random quarry climbing out there. I had reason to look into this a while back and I reckoned it to be about 1100 routes at about 19 venues. I dare say those numbers have grown since. Even as bare bones topos that's quite a lot of paper!

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#43 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 05, 2011, 04:16:44 pm
I was assuming somewhere between 500 and 1000 so was underestimating. I thought there were roughly 3000 trad routes in the area of the old three limestone guides (with a small overlap on the sport quarries). I also assumed about 500 problems. Then much heavier reduction to account for quality compared to the grit guides hence a lot of minor sections and quarries being heavily reduced or topoed in the main guide with web guides for the really keen. Froggatt had 2200 listed routes and 1100 listed problems and several hundred unlisted ones.

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#44 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 10, 2011, 11:19:57 pm
I have been given the High Tor script to deal with. If anyone has been especially active there the last couple of years on the more esoteric stuff and would like to lend a hand can you drop me a PM.

Cheers

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#45 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 26, 2011, 10:42:41 pm
HI

Strongly favour the 2 guide North/South option.

Inevitably the BMC will publish after rockfax so the sales will likely come from people who will buy both books. It would seem to be easier to have one book to every crag in the area your visiting.

If an area has become rubbish best probably to give it a quick paragraph where, what was there, current state and then move on. Route checkers feel free to replace manky/broken/missing pegs.

Should have some time in the summer so keen get involved see you at (my first) area meeting.

regards
Alasdair

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#46 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
December 26, 2011, 10:56:12 pm
Also more than happy for the guide team to make a quality judgement and remove a chossy buttress/venue entirely though probably a brief mention should be included. the southern peak trad needs all the traffic it can get so if a 2 volume split will leave it in obscurity go for one volume

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#47 Re: BMC Peak Limestone guide(s)
February 09, 2012, 01:46:22 pm
,oh and if you fancy a route at high tor you'll have to buy this other guide containing 70% toilet gridbolted gibson sportquarries that you wouldn't be seen dead at, at a cost of another £25".
More like "if you fancy a route at the grid-bolted rubbleheap that people find so irresistable these days, you'll have to buy this other guide containing high tor and other such outdated nonsense that only PaulB and a few old timers can be bothered to visit" ;)

The reason that H2H didn't sell is because Rockfax contained the best quarried bollox already. I have H2H but 90% of the time I'd be using Rockfax for the relevant bollox, not least because it also covered natural crags right next door in case I fancied climbing on them.

Anyway, geographical please.

 

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