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Donkey line / tick mark hall of shame. (Read 483631 times)

mark

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I quite like headpointing sometimes. So there.

[Edited because I can't be bothered getting into a convoluted debate.]

al

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thats cos you're a bad man mark

saltbeef

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i can smell those joss stiks from here. see you all at yoga.

Fiend

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I read your post mark, and, fair enough, some people are going to make headpointing a less sterile experience than others.

I think people are referring to this sort of thing:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=174252&v=1#2502892

...some kid thinking top-roping Psycho @ Caley is the way forward  :roll:

andy popp

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No, Fiend, I don't think so. Al talked about the 'headpointing years' (dates?) and JB named specific, well-known climbers from the 80s/90s. There's a whiff of revisionism about this that threatens downgrade a very important decade on grit from about 84 onwards. Jesus, it was better than the 60s when they toproped and pegged. Maybe things got worse from the late 90s with people headpointing with no track record in onsights, I don't know. I'd be genuinely interested to know what the state of play is now and not just at very top. Is the Peak now rammed with climbers regularly onsighting grit E6 or even E5?

Fiend

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Well, I was referring to trains of thought like this...

Quote
Sadly grades and ego mean folk forget this and run around chasing after bigger numbers by whatever means. I'd say the majority of young climbers who leave home and move to sheffield go through a phase of this. Get ahead of the game - you get a lot more out of climbing an easier route in good style than you do by sieging a hard one.


The impression I get from the last few pages is that the pre-Hard Grit headpointing era had it's role to play and was fine at the time, but things need to move on from that era, and with modern protection, modern training etc etc, improving style is the way forward.

andy popp

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OK fair enough, its partly about that, trying to run before you can walk. But some of its been meant more broadly - if not, why name Seb or Nick? Otherwise I think we're in agreement pretty much - of course, improving style is the way forward, always has been

a dense loner

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i think he named them names cos everybody will have heard of them

andy popp

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Except that's not a very good reason when your real target is meant to be barely competent E4 leaders who want to claim they lead E7

Johnny Brown

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If there is a whiff of revisionism about this, it isn't intended. I, and I'm sure the others, have plenty of respect for the likes of yourself who pushed standards at the time.

In many ways I think the need for a new, purer ethic is because headpointing has proved too effective. There really isn't the plethora of lines and gaps that existed in '86. That isn't just a jaded, blinkered view - ther are loads at Wimberry and a couple at Black Rocks, plus a few scattered over yorkshire but we really are running out of rock. 'Last great lines' like elder arete at curbar have turned out to be non-lines - the groove at cratcliffe will be the same - a couple of hard moves in fifteen metres. The change in style is needed to keep grit alive and relevant.

I think also the headpointing style was adopted in an effort to help trad keep up with the sudden push in standards on lime as a result of the discovery of sport climbing. Along with that then came the 'anything goes' attitude, and we went form the likes of Dawes checking moves on abseil for routes he had already tried ground-up, to Seb and his siege ascents. The headpoint did evolve into something that involved less and less real risk, and then its influence filtered down and led to a lot of E3, E4 headpointing. I don't see them as a problem though - they are just copying the guys at the top. The hypocrisy of saying 'oh you can't do that until you're as good as us' is obvious and, to me, unacceptable.

I think now there is an acceptance that grit has a difficulty of its own - no matter that the supposed french-grade is so low to be irrelevant. Hence we can take it on its own terms rather than trying to create hard routes by any means. Plus, of course, the bouldering and highballing boom that has changed the way we view routes.

Second, as has been said earlier - these routes are fragile and are getting worn. I've seen people kick pebbles on toprope to make sure they're solid enough to trust for the headpoint. That, to me, is disrespectful to the rock. Accept the risk or go clip bolts.

Quote from: "andy popp"
Maybe things got worse from the late 90s with people headpointing with no track record in onsights, I don't know. I'd be genuinely interested to know what the state of play is now and not just at very top. Is the Peak now rammed with climbers regularly onsighting grit E6 or even E5?


Yeah I think they did. There were a few folk who were only interested in 'Hard grit', and just went round headpointing E6-E8 routes. I don't think they even tried to on-sight E5s - not 'Hard' enough. There were also a lot who jumped straight from bouldering to headpointing - James Pearson for example climbed E10 before he'd onsighted E6.

There are a lot of climbers who regularly on-sight E5s - though I think there always have been.. There are a lot of E6s which are now ground-upped with pads all the time. What has been kept quiet is a select bunch who are onsighting E6s and E7s regularly, and now E8 is being broken into . For some reason they aren't interested in the mags and the mags don't seem to be interested in them.

andy popp

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Dear Johnny. Thanks for that post. I never wanted an argument about this, and certainly not to shore up some spurious rep, but just to get some balance that was originally missing - and I think we've achieved that now. If things changed a lot in the late 90s then that would explain the differences in our perspectives as by then I wasn't climbing in the Peak. Three cheers for a good debate. Its a shame the really exciting sounding stuff going on is missing from the news, I'd love to hear it all because I love grit and the poople who like to climb on it

al

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Quote
Al talked about the 'headpointing years' (dates?)

here's my moral high ground:
i suppose i was thinking from the mid 80's to late 90's, when it was really in vogue, and although i get the drift re. 'context', headpointing always seemed like a con to me, and speaking personally always fealt like an expression of need (as opposed to climbing skills).

i agree though andy, the best thing about it is that it doesn't physically alter the rock, although with regard to this thread, it does mean the routes get a bigger kicking/ticking! (although having made guidebooks, i can't justifiably winge about increased traffic)

also think that pads, and the influence of bouldering, have made 'ground up' on grit totally viable, both of which weren't around during that era.

andy popp

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But aren't we all expressing some sort of need every time we climb

al

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But aren't we all expressing some sort of need every time we climb

yep, for sure, i just think the rock needs a bigger chance than headpointing gives it, thats my opinion

however AP, the last thing i mean to do is take anything away from your climbing legacy, having personally witnessed some of your feats

respect

james

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One thing that grates on me is the way that some people seem to  label what, in their opinion, is the right and wrong way to climb, and then scorn anyone that does different.  I may have got the wrong end of the stick but that is what comes accross, to me, when reading a few of the previous posts.  
So, being careful not to do what I have just passed comment on, here is my opinion.
Climbing is really good fun!  It can be frustrating, stressfull, scarey annoying...etc...etc but most of all, it is fun.  Looking back through history, you can see that at different points in time, different "disciplines" have been in vouge but just because "everybody" is doing it, doesnt mean you have to.  To me there is no right or wrong, it is afterall just climbing.  I get vastly different feelings and emotions from headpointing as I do from onsighting, just like I get a different buzz out of bouldering than I do sport climbing.  This year I have hardly tied on at all, but that doesent mean that bouldering is the thing to do, and that routes are evil, just that I wanted to go bouldering when I woke up each morning.  During my shortish life, I have developed my own set of ethics and ideas, they may not be the same as someone elses, but does that make them any less worthy and vice versa.  Do what makes you happy, enjoy yourself, be considerate.

BTW I had onsighted a few E6's before I did Equilibrium
 :wink:

al

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i think it is fine that there are strong opinions on this matter - its a bit of passion - as to the scorn maybe not so nice  :?

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Do what makes you happy, enjoy yourself, be considerate.

again agree, especially with regard consideration, which was the original point of this thread, and the relevant lack of said consideration on careless torque

andy popp

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Al, I've pm'd you

Andy

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Time to dig this up:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=37276&v=1

A lot of ranting on this very subject between errrr, myself, and various other people including but not limited to Keen Youth, Unclemullet, nik at church, Stu 8a Littlefair, Bubba....crikey it's good I don't post like that any more   :shock:  :roll:  :?

james

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It makes me cringe reading old posts, I had some silly ideas and said some silly things, my favourite quote from that thread has to be Feind to Bubba:

Quote
F*ck you too you mindless retard.....


A little harsh, things getting a bit to much :wink:   I know that feeling on CT re the recent threads about "the liar"  Feels like you are banging your head against a wall, the punters just dont see the truth!

Bubba

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Lordy  :shock:

andy popp

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Am grateful for but rather embarrassed by the expressions of respect etc. from Al and JB. Honestly, guys, theres no need - I know nothing was aimed at me and haven't taken anything as though it were. Everyone enjoy themselves

Fiend

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Quote from: "Bubba"
Lordy  :shock:


I know. Sorry, I obviously got carried away.

AndyR

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Quote from: "gruff"
Quote from: "Fiend"
Quote from: "Bubba"
Lordy  :shock:


I know. Sorry, I obviously got carried away.


If that isn't fishing for an apology, then my name is Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi.


Is that a welsh name?

SA Chris

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Aye, commonly shortened to Gruff.

Fiend

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I think that whole thread is a bit  :shock: really.


Anyway, http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=174812&v=1#2508671

Kids, again. Running before they can walk?

 

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