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Donkey line / tick mark hall of shame. (Read 482239 times)

r-man

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But we're not just talking about another route here are we - this is a significant and hard boulder problem which is well within modern standards for a high ball with lots of pads.


Look, if someone can do the bottom bit, surely they aren't going to take that long top-roping the top bit. It's hard, but it's four grades easier or something like that (8a+ and 7b+?). I don't really see how the few people that will want to try it on a top-rope are going to ruin it.

Chances are some people will try it ground-up, and well done to them, but I don't see anything wrong with a few (and it will only be a few, compared to the millions thrashing around on most problems) people who want to get the top wired on a rope.

 
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Andy Brown fell from the top and was fine so the only reason for wanting to pre-practice the moves is a lack of ability.


This of course means that everyone who falls from the top will be fine...

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And if said wouldbe ascentionist is not trying to stay at the forefront of climbing then why would they be trying to climb a route such as this


Um... Am I missing something here? Because it's an amazing line that most people would love to climb. Surely the experience of climbing it is why people want to climb it... The line, the challenge, the moves... not because they are "trying to stay at the forefront of climbing"

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Its people bringing things down to their own level which holds climbing back - people are too soft these days, wanting to take the easy route for a big number.


Holds climbing back? :shock: How exactly is someone climbing a route for their own personal satisfaction holding climbing back? And CT surely isn't an easy route for a big number. Most E6s must be technically miles easier. Or E8s. Or E10s?

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We only have so much rock in England - lets not ruin it for future generations


Right. And we can start our crusade by preserving Careless Torque. Would people stop climbing it in mucky trainers, that really annoys me. At least bring a carpet to wipe your feet on.

Johnny Brown

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The point is that the great thing about climbing, in all its forms, is that you get the same experience whatever your level of ability. If you are climbing at your limit you are getting the same experience. There are very few sports for which that is true.

Sadly grades and ego mean folk forget this and run around chasing after bigger numbers by whatever means. I'd say the majority of young climbers who leave home and move to sheffield go through a phase of this. Get ahead of the game - you get a lot more out of climbing an easier route in good style than you do by sieging a hard one. Becoming an "E7 man" by whatever means is not all that fullfilling.

I fell into the same trap; the week I got my driving licence I went to the Roaches on my own and set up a shunt line on Piece of mind. I'd never been on an E6 and wanted very much to climb hard grit routes. I warmed up and then got on it... and flashed it. Sat on top I've never felt so hollow. I knew I wasn't good enough to climb it, I felt like I'd raped the route. I've been trying to forget the moves so I can go back and enjoy it but ten years later and I haven't. Bummer.

With gritstone we have a few more factors too consider. The rock, especially on harder routes, is fragile. Beau Geste, Benign Lives and Braille trail, all now harder after pebbles were knocked off by clumsy top-ropers. And thats just the routes that start with a B. Second, the rock is running out. Apart from a few lines at Black rocks and Wimberry there really isn't much left in the future of grit new routes. They will become fewer and farther apart.

The future of grit is in style. The hard routes of the eighties and nineties will become testpieces for onsight climbing; this started years ago but has really come of age in the last two seasons with the young generation coming through. They aren't wasting their time digging out crap new headpoints on Kinder, they are out there making ascents of the classic lines in improved style. This approach really opens up gritstone - so much to go at. Get wid the programme y'all.

Huffy

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Come now, climbing is just a hobbie you guys!

Imagine if stamp collectors were to have similar debates...

Sadly rarities and watermarks mean folk forget this and run around chasing after bigger numbers by whatever means. I'd say the majority of young philatelics who leave home and move to sheffield go through a phase of this. Get ahead of the game - bulid up your collection slowly. Becoming a "penny black man" by whatever means is not all that fullfilling.

The future of stamp collecting is in style. Those rare stamps of the eighteen fourties and fifties will become testpieces for keen young philatelists; this started years ago but has really come of age in the last two seasons with the young generation coming through. They aren't wasting their time digging out crap from bin bags at oxfam, they are out there onsighting those two penny blues at high brow markets in improved style. This approach really opens up their collection - so much to go at.

After reading over this i might be convinced that they actually would. I wouldn't tho....

Don't mean to flame you here Adam (i agree with some of what you say and respect your passion for climbing) but gritstone purists are never gonna win this ethical crusade cos they dont have a birth certificate with that rocks name on it. Some folk argue that anti-top roping ethics holds back climbing, and the rationale behind this is obvious. Saying someone shouldn't toprope something like CT is as stupid as saying dwi ddim yn hoffi cig to an iranian pig farmer though!

Nibile

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my two cents, from a country where ethics are perhaps sometimes left apart.

i would like to try the moves of careless torque, or many other that have already been grounded up. i cant see any harm in it: not to the rock, nor to the climbing, nor to the ethic. i can say that a top roped ascent sits a step behind a headpoint, and that last behind the ground up, sure.

why should one be deprived of the joy of trying beautiful moves? i mean, nobodys putting bolts on the top to practice with rope.

i reckon alot depends also in the climbers attitude: making ones name big or having pics on the mags makes alot of difference from who just climbs for self pleasure, or for pleasure.

the tickmarks and chalk are ugly to see and prolly useless, of course.

al

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i have been waiting years for ground up ethics to be adopted by climbers on grit, and am excited that it is dawning on climbers that there is far more to be gained from such styles.
there has been nothing more depressing than the headpointing years - it sucks all the adventure and discovery out of climbing, and makes numbers a priority.
i think the media has played a large role in gloryfying these ascents in a bid to headline ever bigger numbers - i think we all know that the well known 'stars' of this type of climbing have never been the true talents, just climbers operating way above their standard using such techniques.
(new routes are an exception here, and it will always need the ground to be broken before the styles get better, but as far as i'm concerned every subsequent ascent should be ground up, otherwise why bother?)
thats why i like bouldering so much - ain't no ropes to pull on  :)

Johnny Brown

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Word to that Al.

Nibile, I can see its hard to understand from your viewpoint, but these routes are fragile. Top-roping, particularly by climbers who aren't really good enough, can and does damage the rock. Pebbles are especially vulnerable.

If you want to try hard 'beautiful' moves there are plenty to go at without roping CT.

Once a route has been climbed ground-up the bar has been raised. Have some ambition; if you don't feel up to it then go elsewhere until you are good enough.

Quote from: "nibile"
i reckon alot depends also in the climbers attitude: making ones name big or having pics on the mags makes alot of difference from who just climbs for self pleasure


This might not be clear if you've only been following grit climbing for a couple of years, but as Al said; the big egos who wanted to be famous went for the big numbers in bad style and fame. The guys who climbed for themselves settled for smaller numbers in better style, and obscurity.

Quote from: "huffy"
but gritstone purists are never gonna win this ethical crusade


I think you're wrong here, and past events back me up. Why don't we have bolts on grit? Pegs? Points of aid? All have been used and later eliminated by the climbing community. Headpointing will go the same way; its the only way for grit to have a relevant future. No one will have to stop anyone or lay down rules, it will just slowly become deeply unfashionable.

Nibile

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ive always been a great fan of grit climbing, dunno why. perhaps cos it has the fascination of something "more" than just pulling on small edges.
i know your ethics very well, and if you say that "bulls attitude" toproping can damage the rock i cant say anything in response.

but, again and more in general, i think that little differences in attitude can have enormous consequence in practice. its after all a matter of respect, a respect that should tell you if its time to pull off the rope and leave CT in peace, instead of slapping everywhere just relying on the rope.

i also think that the line between ethic and elitism is thin. i dont think to climbing as being an elitist sport. in fact its not even a sport, its a discipline to me.

to preserve the rock and our environment is a primary need, and even if it would have been a bummer, i would have happily respected the stanage ban, if it was up when i was there.
again, respect.

Fiend

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Quote from: "Johnny Brown"
The point is that the great thing about climbing, in all its forms, is that you get the same experience whatever your level of ability. If you are climbing at your limit you are getting the same experience. There are very few sports for which that is true.

Sadly grades and ego mean folk forget this and run around chasing after bigger numbers by whatever means. I'd say the majority of young climbers who leave home and move to sheffield go through a phase of this. Get ahead of the game - you get a lot more out of climbing an easier route in good style than you do by sieging a hard one. Becoming an "E7 man" by whatever means is not all that fullfilling.

I fell into the same trap; the week I got my driving licence I went to the Roaches on my own and set up a shunt line on Piece of mind. I'd never been on an E6 and wanted very much to climb hard grit routes. I warmed up and then got on it... and flashed it. Sat on top I've never felt so hollow. I knew I wasn't good enough to climb it, I felt like I'd raped the route. I've been trying to forget the moves so I can go back and enjoy it but ten years later and I haven't. Bummer.

With gritstone we have a few more factors too consider. The rock, especially on harder routes, is fragile. Beau Geste, Benign Lives and Braille trail, all now harder after pebbles were knocked off by clumsy top-ropers. And thats just the routes that start with a B. Second, the rock is running out. Apart from a few lines at Black rocks and Wimberry there really isn't much left in the future of grit new routes. They will become fewer and farther apart.

The future of grit is in style. The hard routes of the eighties and nineties will become testpieces for onsight climbing; this started years ago but has really come of age in the last two seasons with the young generation coming through. They aren't wasting their time digging out crap new headpoints on Kinder, they are out there making ascents of the classic lines in improved style. This approach really opens up gritstone - so much to go at. Get wid the programme y'all
.


Excellent post (Al's post is good too).

If Mick_Rockfax is going to take any post from UKB and make it into a UKC "news item", it should be that one.

Unfortunately, from repeated and bitter experience, taking a strong and principled standpoint like that tends to attract plenty of abuse and knee-jerk actions without people actually looking seriously at the nature of climbing and the nature of it's personal challenges. Thankfully not too much on here though.

Stubbs

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Apparently Marrowbone Jelly at Caley had received some similar treatment on saturday - anyone want to own up  :?:

Agree with the sentiments about ground up climbing.  With the advent of bouldering mats, and the fact that now most people own at least one I would prefer to see routes being attempted ground up with lots of mats, rather than on a toprope.

How do the ethical purists feel about padpointing?

Bonjoy

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I'm not making any judgement here, just speaking for myself.
 I've been doing bouldering, trad and sport climbing since about 1989, but with the exception of the odd new route i've never got into the headpointing thing at all. It just leaves me cold, for much the same reasons given by Al. Perhaps that's just an excuse for cowardice on my part, but it just seems a slightly boring, lonely sort of climbing. Once you decide to seige a route, it becomes an almost forgone conclusion you will climb it, bar a slim margin of risk.

andy popp

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As an ex-headpointer, I'm sat wondering whether I should be feeling a bit guilty. I was probably an early adopter of headpointing alongside people such as Seb operating (just?) behind the lead set by people such as Nick and the two JDs and I dont remember our climbing being so soul-less and ego driven (though maybe I'm in denial). I gave up headpointing quite quickly (with a late exception for new route at Helsby in 2001) because it did pall after a while. E7s that were hard to onsight could be headpointed very easily - but I can't deny it also delivered some great experiences along the way as well.

But - to get to the point - context is important and in this sense it might be possible to see headpointing as a necessary (and now hopefully finished) interlude. Progress isn't always smooth and leaps forward rare and sometimes wrong turns are taken in trying to move things on. Headpointing was probably far less detrimental than other potential paths that could have been taken - such as bolting. It is true though that it should now be recognized as having had its day

peace and love etc.

cofe

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Quote from: "r-man"
what's so wrong with practicing the top moves on a rope.  


Quote from: "r-man"
That's the spirit of bouldering isn't it?


 :lol: that's dynamite tony.

what about practicing the top moves of the following on a rope?: NTBTA, crescent arete, west side story, yellow desert scream, kaizen... the list goes on.

on a seperate note we need to make huffy more angry. grr.

Bonjoy

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Quote from: "andy popp"
As an ex-headpointer, I'm sat wondering whether I should be feeling a bit guilty. I was probably an early adopter of headpointing alongside people such as Seb operating (just?) behind the lead set by people such as Nick and the two JDs and I dont remember our climbing being so soul-less and ego driven (though maybe I'm in denial). I gave up headpointing quite quickly (with a late exception for new route at Helsby in 2001) because it did pall after a while. E7s that were hard to onsight could be headpointed very easily - but I can't deny it also delivered some great experiences along the way as well.

But - to get to the point - context is important and in this sense it might be possible to see headpointing as a necessary (and now hopefully finished) interlude. Progress isn't always smooth and leaps forward rare and sometimes wrong turns are taken in trying to move things on. Headpointing was probably far less detrimental than other potential paths that could have been taken - such as bolting. It is true though that it should now be recognized as having had its day

peace and love etc.

 Context is everything. Headpointing was breaking new ground back then, plus a lot of what you did was new routing (arguably a more justifiable reason to headpoint), plus pads hadn't taken off yet.

Johnny Brown

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As has also been pointed out elsewhere; almost without exception the repeats of these early hard grit routes were in worse style than the first. Dawes being the best example - he got to the top move of End of the Affair ground-up before resorting to inspection for the last move, Gaia's top half was not practiced cos he thought it would be easy (hence the crying described on stone monkey).

The early days were often just abseil inspection, a few moves practiced at a time. Problem was, you give the masses an inch, they take a mile. By the mid nineties it had got to the ridiculous point of Seb talking about cleanly roping a route six times in a row before he would consider a lead, or Nick Dixon talking about a 'robotic' state of mind when executing bold but wired-in moves.

All got called headpointing, with very few folk being in a position where they were able to distinguish between what was actually cutting-edge climbing and mindless grade-chasing by any means. The magazines certainly couldn't - a fact I'm sure is at least partly responsible for the current generations disaffection with the mags.

I don't want to feel like a robot on grit.

andy popp

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Thanks Bonjoy. I wasn't really thinking about myself so much as the whole scene when headpointing began. Just think some of the more dictatorial statements painting it as a mortal threat to grit climbing are exaggerated. The pad point is obvious but undoubtedly significant on some routes. And, as JB himself pointed out on the thread on Ryan flashing TEOTA, there's headpointing and there's headpointing

Johnny Brown

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Just think some of the more dictatorial statements painting it as a mortal threat to grit climbing are exaggerated


i guess that's me - hopefully the last post explained it a bit. I don't think its that big a deal, after all I've held ropes and photographed friends on their headpoints. As Bonjoy said, it was relevant at the time, but lost its way.

I do think its time to move on whilst there is some stuff left for the future, though. What does wind me up is the gormless who haven't got the vision to see thats the case  :roll:

andy popp

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Apologies for the dictatorial bit, unintentionally a bit too strong there. As ever, I think there's more agreement than disagreement here. Yes, its time to move on, which is why I so enthusiastically greeted Ryan's flash of TEOTA, but I didn't think the point about it serving a purpose at one time had been made. Its just wrong to tar all headpointing with the same brush. I would be unashamedly elitist about this though - headpointing is only valid at or near the cutting edge.

Dont accept the idea that Nick is one 'the masses' though.

Huffy

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Anyone else collect stamps? :wink:

Adam: You go strong girl!

dave

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Quote from: "Nibile"
i would like to try the moves of careless torque, or many other that have already been grounded up. i cant see any harm in it: not to the rock, nor to the climbing, nor to the ethic.


I would wager that if you did try the moves of say the top half of CT on a rope then you'd probably find them as good as any number of problems of a similar grade. I doubt they would be anything out of this world - which brings me to my point. Gritstone to me is about more than just the moves, or the setting,, the rock, or the history, or the social aspect or the danger. Gristone is one of those things which is greater than the sum of its parts. Careless Torque is not a classic simply because of the moves, its a classic due to a special combination of moves, difficulty, line, danger, history and setting. To take just one or two of those aspects in isolation (like on a toprope just to experience the moves) is to miss out on what things like this are funadmentally about, the essence of it all - hence JB's hollow feeling on the top of POM. If all you want is to experience top quality 7b+ moves or whatever in total safety then luckily the crags are full of problems that fit the bill. There is simply no need to strip CT down to the lowest common denominators. And that ignoring the oft-discusses issue of rock damage etc.....

Forgive me if this sounds all a bit pretentious, but I'm sure we all recognise that climbing is as good as it is because of the interplay of all those special aspects. If all we were bothered about was the strength then we'd just be meat heads down the gym. If all we wanted was danger we'd be out playing russian roulette. If one facet of climbing crystalises this combination of factors better than any other then it would seem to be gritstone. Thats the magic "zing", that certain je ne sais quoi. we all have felt it, and know it, yet its so hard to put a finger on, which is why only the more easily quantifiable factors get pimped in the media. The grade chasing etc. and then its easy to become blinded to what draws us to grit in the first place.

the great thing about grit of course is the variety. So if you want a safe hard boulder problem then you've got it. If you want a dangerous route with technically easy moves at any grade you've got it. If you want hard moves with gear at your feet then fill your boots. Theres enough safe quality climbing to try on grit to go at without robbing yourself of one of the great all-round challenges like CT. And so what if you save a route for the onsight and never get on it? big deal. I can't imagine many people go to their death bed wishing they'd toproped more routes. half of the best bit of grit is the mystery.

Sorry if that got a bit heavy.

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Quote from: "dave"
And so what if you save a route for the onsight and never get on it? big deal. I can't imagine many people go to their death bed wishing they'd toproped more routes. half of the best bit of grit is the mystery.


Exactly - like Grimer said in Stanage Through The Grades
Quote from: "grimer"
Some routes it would be good to climb, some routes it would be good never to climb at all

I think this encapsulates perfectly what gritstone climbing is all about. With the exception of a few, technical difficulty on most grit climbs isnt hard, by modern standards. Its the combination of all the factors, like Dave siad, which gives grit ts unique experience.

It you can master all of these parts then the personal experience is amazing. Im sure everyones made a hard onsight where you get to the top and you cant really remember what happened - everything just flowed. When you get something on a rope, it may as well just be another boulder problem.

Going back to the quote, it can sometimes be better never to have experienced something and just dream about yourself high up on moves that you think you should be able to do but arent sure, than it is to ruin that dream.

Fiend

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Good posts! This thread is starting to reaffirm one's faith in climbers...

SA Chris

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Sheer Poetry Dave, sheer poetry.

al

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the best bit of grit is the mystery.

hit the spot dave

lorentz

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I agree. This is the essence of the way of the boulderer. Let's hope that some major corporate footwear company doesn't pick up on this viewpint and cheapen it in some cheesy ad campaign!

And I thought these new posts were just gonna be photos of horrendous chalk marks!:wink:[/quote]

mark

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Quote from: "Control freak"
When you get something on a rope, it may as well just be another boulder problem.


Perhaps this is your experience, it is certainly not mine. Some of my headpoints have had me unable to sleep beforehand, too full of fear and anticipation. Then completely elated after. These have been some of my most intense climbing experiences.

 

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