[StillTryingForTheTop]

Hi there,

Been climbing for 1 year now and with my Birthday / Christmas approaching it is about time to start dropping hints.

Please can people recommend to me an ideal trad rack, both what equipment / brands are currently the highly rated and also where is the best place to buy them from.

So far I have only climbed outdoors in the Peak district, but plan on going further afield next year.

With regards to grade, indoor I climb at about a 6b level, claimed a couple of 6c's, outdoor I have led (using someone elses gear as I have none) vDiff, this was the first and only time leading outdoors a couple of weekends ago whilst at Big Shakeout, I have seconded HVS 5a/b.

Any other information that would help to put together a good trad rack then let me know

Thanks in advance,

Gary

[tomtom]

Basics in order of importance... IMHO..

Rope.. I'd start with a 50m single..

Set of rocks/nuts 1-9
Min 5 quickdraws
Couple of long slings & two screw gates
2-3 hexs on rope/tape
Friend 2
Friend 3
Friend 1
(or friend equivalents)
Nut key...

There's folk on here who know better but aboves probably a good starting point...

[moose]

I'd add a few quickdraws - for longer routes and to open up going to sport crags.  You really don't want to find yourself forgoing placing pro' because you're worried about running out of QDs! 

If climbing on a single rope, make sure some of the QDs are long (20cm) to avoid rope drag.  Making your own "slingdraws" from tripled 60cm slings might also be useful.  I find them very handy for meandering pitches or those with small overhangs.  There's a "how to" here (I don't bother with the elastic retainers myself):

http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Making_The_Ultimate_Trad_Quickdraw_264.html

Brands-wise, you really can't go too far wrong with any of the major ones - anything by Wild Country, DMM or Black Diamond will generally be well designed and tested.  Peoples' preferences for particular high-end brands are often more to do with loyalty / habit / perception of brand values than the minor differences in their gear quality.  I personally tend to buy DMM stufff, I suspect more because of a vague feeling that they have a firm trad ethos than anything (also I like that they manufacture in Wales).  The exception for me being wired pro': I much prefer WC Rocks to DMM Walnuts (which I always get stuck in situations where they aren't actually providing protection but I can't remove them).

Also, try looking on "the other channel" (ukclimbing) and the planet fear website - I'd be very surprised if they don't have loads of beginers rack articles.

[mrjonathanr]

I'd add a few quickdraws - make sure some of the QDs are long (20cm) to avoid rope drag.  I much prefer WC Rocks to DMM Walnuts (which I always get stuck - but I can't remove them).

Ditto -you can climb most routes perfectly well with 2 sets of rocks and 8+ draws. Cams are nice but expensive to start.  You could probably get some cheap 2nd hand hex's on UKC to cover bigger grit cracks initially.

[Grubes]

heres a link to an article on the other channel ... (actually something useful on there other than the logbook  )
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=840

Prices are from 2008 so it might be a bit on the low side.

SO look at the short routs list but I would add medium size cams to that list

[moose]

I guess details of what'll be best depend on the rock the OP will be climbing.   As he mentioned climbing in the Peak (presumably grit), I reckon saving up for a set of cams would be a better investment than an extra set of nuts.  Trying to protect the frequent horizontal cracks without cams is a bit tricky and possibly best avoided for beginners.  Tomtom's advice of a 1, 2, 3 set (or 0.5, 1.5, 2.5) is pretty good (especially if there are any offers for sets of three).   

On the other hand, if the OP will be climbing lime, a second set of wires would likely be more useful.  At least from my own experience -  I never seem place cams on limestone or "mountain" routes but often end up running out of small/medium nuts.

[tomtom]

What moose said regarding nuts/wired pro.. It's strange, but rocks seem to slip perfectly into most placements on trade routes.. Walnuts.. Ok for the odd place but I wouldn't..

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Thanks everyone, some good advice

yes, so far it has mainly been Grit climbing in the Peak, although I would like to do some Welsh Slate next year as the photo's I have seen of that look awesome.  (and maybe a sea-stack if I can find one within my grade although not done any research on that yet.)

We already have 10 QD's as did some sport climbing earlier the year at Horseshoe, good tip for making the long QD and the article on UKC seems to compliment the one I have in my Guide book.

I will put a list together and see what people think,

[Paul B]

What moose said regarding nuts/wired pro.. It's strange, but rocks seem to slip perfectly into most placements on trade routes.. Walnuts.. Ok for the odd place but I wouldn't..

I disagree entirely on this. I always reach for the Wallnuts in preference to the rocks.  The scalloped dish seems to allow them to bite in places like pembroke where you have that knobbly rock (others just rattle alarmingly) and they just sit really well on the limestone IMO.
 
With cams, if you're going to have a limited number, a double axle design such as the Dragons will allow you to cover a greater range with fewer. You still won't have many though.

Are we all right in assuming you're likely to be heading to the Peak as it will dictate what a starter rack should really entail?

I seem to remember a few shops actually selling starter racks (Needlesports perhaps?).

[gruffalo]

I find doubling up on small cams is fairly essential for lime stone cragging I use the metolius tcu's in sizes 0 to 4. There light and easy to use.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Yes, the Peaks are the closest climbing to me, so likely where most of it will continue to happen.

Are we all right in assuming you're likely to be heading to the Peak as it will dictate what a starter rack should really entail?

[tomtom]

What moose said regarding nuts/wired pro.. It's strange, but rocks seem to slip perfectly into most placements on trade routes.. Walnuts.. Ok for the odd place but I wouldn't..

I disagree entirely on this. I always reach for the Wallnuts in preference to the rocks.  The scalloped dish seems to allow them to bite in places like pembroke where you have that knobbly rock (others just rattle alarmingly) and they just sit really well on the limestone IMO.

Fair enough - horses for courses etc.. I've trad climbed about 3 times on lime (3 times too many!) so can't comment on that but find rocks just seem to work better for me on most of the Grit VS/HVS trad I've done in Yorks, Peak and other rock types in 't Lakes..

[StillTryingForTheTop]

With regards to Cams, any preferences between the Dragon cams and Helium cams?

For information, one of the people I climb with has some Dragon cams, so I was thinking the Helium cams might complement those as being slightly different, so might be slightly more suitable in places the Dragons as slightly less suitable????

Cheers
Gary

[SA Chris]

I've climbed on most rock types in the UK, and prefer WC rocks overall.

When starting out I would go for whatever (decent*)cams you can get cheapest. Being able to afford more cams on your rack is going to benefit you a lot more than having one super duper lightweight cam. And try to stick with one make and range as the sizes are designed to cover the spectrum of sizes. Plus it satisfies any OCD issues you may have.

(*by decent I mean can be bought from UK shops and are properly rated, not Russian knock-offs made from old MIG bits)

[Johnny Brown]

Fair enough - horses for courses etc.. I've trad climbed about 3 times on lime (3 times too many!) so can't comment on that but find rocks just seem to work better for me on most of the Grit VS/HVS trad I've done in Yorks, Peak and other rock types in 't Lakes..

This sums up the Wallnut vs Rocks debate I think. I reckon Rocks are better generally, until you get into the mid-extremes, particularly on Lime, where Wallnuts are better. Not sure why, I guess in experienced hands they give more possibilities in fiddly placements.

If I was starting a rack now I'd buy Dragon cams for fat fingers > fists (1 - 4), then add a couple of DMM 4CUs/ 3CUs for fingers, (0.5-1.5) and a couple of BD TCUs for tinies (0-000).

[Paul B]

With regards to Cams, any preferences between the Dragon cams and Helium cams?

For information, one of the people I climb with has some Dragon cams, so I was thinking the Helium cams might complement those as being slightly different, so might be slightly more suitable in places the Dragons as slightly less suitable????

Cheers
Gary

as I said above, Dragon cams have two axle's therefore one cam covers a larger range. If you can only afford a few then buying these is going to give you greater coverage out of the same number of cams. It doesn't mean you have to carry less in the end as once you've used them they're still gone but initially it should be a little better. The one downside I find with the dragons is seconding, the extension sling leaves them bouncing around your knees and you can't do much about it.

A friend has thrust his set of Heliums on me whilst he's away after hearing once too many times how much I like the mastercams in the smaller sizes. I haven't had chance to use them yet but the one obvious advantage I can see so far is they're fairly long. I doubt you'll often need to extend them with more than a draw.

[Johnny Brown]

The one downside I find with the dragons is seconding, the extension sling leaves them bouncing around your knees and you can't do much about it

Why? I just rack them back up as I do leading. Usually worth doing minor reracks like this on route as it saves time at the belay.

[slackline]

  I'll often shorten slings with teeth & clip the krab through both bits so its not dangling down by your knees (same for extendable draws, usually shorten them after removing).

[Paul B]

For heavens sake, having to bite the sling is hardly convenient is it? Especially compared with folding a cam QD combination in half and clipping the middle biner.

[SA Chris]

Or you could just get taller? Then they won't bounce around your knees

[slackline]

Its not the easist of things no*, but its that, have them dangling around low down or carry more draws and never extend the cam slings. 




* Caveat being I don't climb hard trad so usually find myself in a relatively non-extremis position to be able to do this.

[Johnny Brown]

For heavens sake, having to bite the sling is hardly convenient is it?

Arrive at cam. Insert index finger in doubled bit of sling at and of stem. Pull out. Clip with draw/ biner. Remove cam, clip to harness, unclip from rope. Hardly a chore, I think doubled slings are definitely worth the 'hassle'.

If its mid-crux, just rip cam out and leave it hanging on the rope.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

With regards to nuts (is that the generic term), I was planning on doubling up.

Is the advice to buy 2 sets the same, eg 2 sets of WC Rocks, or 1 set of Rocks and 1 set of Wallnuts (or an additional set of something else?)

[tomtom]

Id stick with one set and spend your $$ on a couple of friends/cams. But if you have the $$ then I'd get a set of each. Rocks/Walnuts sit differently in different cracks (as previously discussed).
Or get a set of nuts and some 0, 00 and 000 walnuts (as there are no small rocks below a 1)...

[Pantontino]

What moose said regarding nuts/wired pro.. It's strange, but rocks seem to slip perfectly into most placements on trade routes.. Walnuts.. Ok for the odd place but I wouldn't..

I disagree entirely on this. I always reach for the Wallnuts in preference to the rocks.  The scalloped dish seems to allow them to bite in places like pembroke where you have that knobbly rock (others just rattle alarmingly) and they just sit really well on the limestone IMO.

They are both good, but If pushed I'd say I prefer Walnuts - but then I climb mostly on Welsh sea cliffs (Gogarth mostly with odd visits to Pembroke), Welsh mountain rock and slate.

My rack is a mixture of Rocks and Walnuts - just get a set of each up to 8, then the bigger ones  in whatever style you prefer.

The DMM Offsets are surprisingly good too, especially for those awkward angular placements - maybe get some when you start building up your rack to mega sea cliff proportions.

As for Dragon Cams - love them! They just feel so good in your hands; really easy to manipulate. Haven't used heliums yet, although I'm sure they are good too.