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Leaving draws in routes and situ draws (split from Chee Dale conditions thread) (Read 105828 times)

shark

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Can whichever hero has left their quickdraws in Mecca Extension please take them out.

Don't want the rot to set in again.

Thank you.

Good to see that these have been removed   :thumbsup:

dave

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Draws left in Mecca Extension (or a variant on) and Sardine (or a variant on) tonight. Come on folks, clean your shit up.

Paul B

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Last Sunday Kilnsey was pretty bad for in-situs too at the end of the day; there's serious creep on this issue ATM and I'm not just talking of routes that are hard to strip.

Adam Lincoln

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Last Sunday Kilnsey was pretty bad for in-situs too at the end of the day; there's serious creep on this issue ATM and I'm not just talking of routes that are hard to strip.

Thats the least of kilnseys worries. Parking was bad again today. Farmer is getting pissed off. He will just ban access if its not sorted out.

The bmc need to pit some signs up asap, before its too late.

danm

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Thread necro!

I'd written a post for the BMC website about the dangers of forming sharp edges on perma-draws a while back, it looks like it's worse than we realised. Mammut have done a load of testing, and the results are pretty shocking: https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes


Wood FT

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Thread necro!

I'd written a post for the BMC website about the dangers of forming sharp edges on perma-draws a while back, it looks like it's worse than we realised. Mammut have done a load of testing, and the results are pretty shocking: https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes

This needs spreading

I climbed at a crag on New Zealand a month ago and the first fixed draw on a roof extension was so sharp I couldn't believe it, I took the krab out and lowered off. Could this be one of those situations where the draw is at an easy point (jugs) so no-one really stops there thereby creating one type of rope wear on the QuickDraw? I think this was the cause of a death a few years ago on an alpine route?

The other, more popular, routes with fixed draws were chunky steel ones on chains and seemed fine. Would these go the same way eventually or is this study just looking into the alloys on 'everyday' QuickDraws?

Stay safe out there

HaeMeS

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@danm: It looks to me that the article by Mammut refers to the accident in Matletsch in september 2012 and is from late 2012. Nevertheless, most climbers seem unaware of the phenomenon. Which is strange, because climbers learn about the dangers of sharp edges in all climbing courses, both indoors and outdoors. At the moment I have around 40 karabiners lying on my desk with dangerously sharp edges, taken from outdoor routes but also from indoor climbing walls (!)...

standard

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Pretty timely.

The route i'm trying at the moment has an in situ draw below the crux which I took at close look at yesterday.
Very sharp biner and sling frayed.
I'll be putting my own qd there for my redpoints.

Ged

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Take it off and chuck it in the bin.

I fell off a route at smith rock a few years ago and heard a strange sound as the rope went tight. Looked up to see lots of core showing, after the fixed draw had shredded the sheath. I took the offending draw down, and lobbed it in the bin. A few locals had a bit of a pop at me for it, but I'd rather piss off some people than risk somebody killing themselves.

Smith rock was crazy for the fixed biners, especially seeing as everything is vertical and easy to strip.

danm

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Thread necro!

I'd written a post for the BMC website about the dangers of forming sharp edges on perma-draws a while back, it looks like it's worse than we realised. Mammut have done a load of testing, and the results are pretty shocking: https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes

This needs spreading

I climbed at a crag on New Zealand a month ago and the first fixed draw on a roof extension was so sharp I couldn't believe it, I took the krab out and lowered off. Could this be one of those situations where the draw is at an easy point (jugs) so no-one really stops there thereby creating one type of rope wear on the QuickDraw? I think this was the cause of a death a few years ago on an alpine route?

The other, more popular, routes with fixed draws were chunky steel ones on chains and seemed fine. Would these go the same way eventually or is this study just looking into the alloys on 'everyday' QuickDraws?

Stay safe out there

Steel is much harder wearing, so is a much better choice if the draw is left in-situ. DMM and others make special sets for climbing walls etc, where the krab is steel, but has an alloy gate for ease of use (steel gates are too heavy for easy clipping). One of these with a chain or wire sling and maillon into the bolt is the most suitable thing to use as a permadraw.

standard

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Take it off and chuck it in the bin.

Yep, i'm going to replace the biner, but the sling wants changing too, and I can't undo the maillon.
Will try to tell a local.

Wood FT

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Thread necro!

I'd written a post for the BMC website about the dangers of forming sharp edges on perma-draws a while back, it looks like it's worse than we realised. Mammut have done a load of testing, and the results are pretty shocking: https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes



This needs spreading

I climbed at a crag on New Zealand a month ago and the first fixed draw on a roof extension was so sharp I couldn't believe it, I took the krab out and lowered off. Could this be one of those situations where the draw is at an easy point (jugs) so no-one really stops there thereby creating one type of rope wear on the QuickDraw? I think this was the cause of a death a few years ago on an alpine route?

The other, more popular, routes with fixed draws were chunky steel ones on chains and seemed fine. Would these go the same way eventually or is this study just looking into the alloys on 'everyday' QuickDraws?

Stay safe out there

Steel is much harder wearing, so is a much better choice if the draw is left in-situ. DMM and others make special sets for climbing walls etc, where the krab is steel, but has an alloy gate for ease of use (steel gates are too heavy for easy clipping). One of these with a chain or wire sling and maillon into the bolt is the most suitable thing to use as a permadraw.

Cheers, just a shame those types of fixed draws are fuck ugly

Johnny Brown

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Quite surprised by this. Not the fact that a badly worn biner will shred ropes, but that folk blindly clip them in that state. When we did some tests at DMM on the Mecca perma-draws, the scenario was that the maillon had been first scored by the bolt, then rotated and cut the inside of the webbing. Much less obvious. I'm minded to say anyone having a rope damaged by a groove worn in the clipping crab deserves what they get, but I guess it's symptomatic of a general 'it's safe' sport climbing mindset.

remus

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Quite surprised by this. Not the fact that a badly worn biner will shred ropes, but that folk blindly clip them in that state. When we did some tests at DMM on the Mecca perma-draws, the scenario was that the maillon had been first scored by the bolt, then rotated and cut the inside of the webbing. Much less obvious. I'm minded to say anyone having a rope damaged by a groove worn in the clipping crab deserves what they get, but I guess it's symptomatic of a general 'it's safe' sport climbing mindset.

Sounds like a few draws we spotted in santa linya. One particularly scary draw where half the tube of a tubular sling was no more, on the only draw a friend was clipping between L2 and L3!

HaeMeS

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Cheers, just a shame those types of fixed draws are fuck ugly

The cheap ones, yes. More expensive ones like the Petzl Djinn steel look like an alu draw and almost feel like one. DMM Alpha Steel is good as well. The steel 'slings' (several manufacturers) ain't ugly at all. Unfortunately some (most round here actually) climbing walls and climbers won't buy anything but the cheapest draws and think they're immune to accidents.

http://dmmclimbing.com/products/alpha-steel/
https://www.petzl.com/LU/en/Sport/Carabiners-and-quickdraws/Pack-of-10-quickdraws-DJINN-STEEL-AXESS#.WNzRDRKLSEI


Wood FT

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Ged

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The mind boggles doesn't it. They aren't even steep routes! There was a load of these in a route I did at red rocks called monster skank. Brilliant route in a lovely little canyon, with massive ugly chains hanging all over it.

TobyD

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The mind boggles doesn't it. They aren't even steep routes! There was a load of these in a route I did at red rocks called monster skank. Brilliant route in a lovely little canyon, with massive ugly chains hanging all over it.

You lads won't want to hear about this crag I went to in California then... 30+m routes all over it, (very steep admittedly) and as far as i remember, other than the first bolt every draw is an in-situ chain draw (alloy shit ones btw). Bizarre starting to try to onsight a 14-15 clip route with 1 draw on your harness. Significantly less bothered about the aesthetics, than the incredible danger

TobyD

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T_B

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Just resurrecting this thread given the discussion around increased littering in National Parks post-Lockdown and whether climbers think leaving ‘draws in Kilnsey is a good idea?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 10:34:47 am by T_B »

abarro81

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The following is an aside from the Q of whether it's ok to leave routes equipped more than just overnight at specific crags. However, it's relevant in the context that making sweeping statements won't convince anyone involved to take their draws out..


I don’t climb 8c but I don’t see why it’s any different to projecting 8a or 7a for that matter?

Is true only in the context that the routes are of similar styles. If, for example, we're talking about 8c and 7a down the cornice they're both v easy to strip. Similarly Freakshow and Mandela would both be ballaches to strip every session, but comparing them to comedy or directisima (or even Epic Adventures or similar) misses the obvious difference of 15m of reverse stripping in a roof.

[For context, I've left draws in the big roof before (e.g. Freakshow) but also stripped them out (e.g. Premonition) depending on whether it needs reverse stripping or can be done by lowering off. I've never bothered to leave draws in anything other than the big trav routes in the roof, apart from when leaving them in overnight between a Sat and a Sun, because it seems a bit superfluous. I currently have no draws in any routes anywhere. If my fingers were less broken and I were on Northern Lights 3x per week I'd probably have been leaving draws in...]

EDIT - I see TB's post has gone, but I'll leave this here for now

T_B

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Sorry, re-phrased and posted again before reading your reply. Same gist though.

T_B

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You can pick Mandela etc to make a point but the North Buttress would have 7as on it if it had jugs up it.

Sounds like the elite have decided it’s a different set of rules for them. Now who does that remind me of?  :-\

Stu Littlefair

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Ondra just seconded Mandela after a 5 minute rest to get his draws out.

There are no excuses.

 

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