[joe cook]

the situ draws on Mecca.

these all seem to have been replaced, interestingly there is a new biner on the 3rd (4th) but the old shonky tape! weird! do we really need these? (I do for my aid climbing, but I wouldn't be upset if they were taken out)

I replaced these.

The 4th bolt has the old tape on it because I got the new gear from DMM and they had run out of 25cm tapes. The tape length is quite crucial on that bolt, and that particular tape wasn't in too bad condition, so I have just left it for now.

I replaced what I could because the existing gear was becoming unsafe - the existing tapes were faded, abraded and in some cases significantly torn (~1/4 tape width on the worst) and because the biners themselves had severe rope grooves (the worst was worn down to ~1/3 of the biner thickness) with sharp edges which were trashing my rope very quickly.

I had seen this debate, but I don't feel it's my place to decide whether the gear should be there or not. As far as I'm concerned if there is going to be fixed gear in the route it should at least be safe. Now it is.

p.s. I have kept all the old tapes/draws, so if anyone knows who they belonged to I can return them (or put them back if people are pissed off at the replacement) - I think they might be Steve Mac's?

[Johnny Brown]

I have kept all the old tapes/draws, so if anyone knows who they belonged to I can return them

Be interesting to get DMM or Lyon to break them and see how strong they weren't.

[north_country_boy]

the situ draws on Mecca.

these all seem to have been replaced, interestingly there is a new biner on the 3rd (4th) but the old shonky tape! weird! do we really need these? (I do for my aid climbing, but I wouldn't be upset if they were taken out)

I replaced these.

The 4th bolt has the old tape on it because I got the new gear from DMM and they had run out of 25cm tapes. The tape length is quite crucial on that bolt, and that particular tape wasn't in too bad condition, so I have just left it for now.

I replaced what I could because the existing gear was becoming unsafe - the existing tapes were faded, abraded and in some cases significantly torn (~1/4 tape width on the worst) and because the biners themselves had severe rope grooves (the worst was worn down to ~1/3 of the biner thickness) with sharp edges which were trashing my rope very quickly.

I had seen this debate, but I don't feel it's my place to decide whether the gear should be there or not. As far as I'm concerned if there is going to be fixed gear in the route it should at least be safe. Now it is.

I think the above speaks for itself, how long before it ends up in the same state? I have never understood the fixed gear on Mecca when you can equip most of the route from the ground with a standard clip stick, and probably the whole of it if you borrow Stone's roach pole! It is purely laziness born from convenience.

[Three Nine]

but if there isn't a real access issue then that in itself is no reason not to do something

[danm]

I'd be happy to arrange testing of the stuff people have removed. I've done this before with a quickdraw which Steve Mac gave me out of curiousity. I haven't got any photo's to hand of it, but the krab had a deep rope groove worn into it (about a 1/3 worn) and the tape was intact but rather furry. I'm pretty certain it was a Petzl Spirit with the classic tapered Petzl nylon tape draw.

Most people's attention would be drawn to the wear on the krab, but in fact with the gate closed, it still held 23kN. The main concern would be the effect of the reduced section and any edges on the rope, and I'd expect a reduced gate open strength.

The tape broke at 12kN, which although about half what it would be when new, is still much higher than what you'd generate in even a nasty hard fall. The trouble is, you could easily have one which doesn't look much worse but turns out to be much weaker, and that one just might break on you. I'd suggest that the ones to be most wary of are those closest to the deck  (higher forces) and those where the rock isn't steep (more wear).

[Paul B]

but if there isn't a real access issue then that in itself is no reason not to do something

Even if you ignore this:

I don't know about the access at other crags, but I do know that Raven Tor is owned by the National Trust and they regularly inspect the crag. I also know, having asked them during one such visit, that they neither understand nor like fixed gear and when asked which fixed gear they were referring to it was the situ draws on Mecca.

and go down the line of "there isn't a problem until there's a problem" you're still yet to back this line of argument up by answering this:

Perma-draws were not deemed necessary on these routes 5-10 years ago. What's changed?

other than how Barrows succinctly put it himself.

[Three Nine]

I'm not sure I follow you? At one time chalk, sticky rubber and stainless steel fixed gear were not considered necessary. But things do change, thank God.

[Three Nine]

My general point (when not just winding people up) through all of this has been that people have different ideas about what is generally acceptable and that these ideas may develop over time. Where access is not an issue, I see no reason for a blanket proscription on leaving draws in, even if it seems lazy to you. Personally I find yorkshire top-roping/headpointing of sport routes and Shark-style dependence on clipsticks pretty distasteful, but I accept that these people have a different take on things.

Fuck i sound like a right hippie.

[benpritch]

righto - draws are out of mecca. the new bits are in the cave at the bottom if you want to go and get them.

the rotten bits, one was cut a third of the way through, have been taken for testing. maillons are somewhere else to discourage re equippage.

[account_inactive]

righto - draws are out of mecca. the new bits are in the cave at the bottom if you want to go and get them.

the rotten bits, one was cut a third of the way through, have been taken for testing. maillons are somewhere else to discourage re equippage.

Thanks Ben, that's saved me a job. 
On the old tape/krabs I'd also be interested to know there destruction data, especially the draw at the bottom of the groove as I've taken big lobs on it.

I don't think leaving fixed gear could ever be considered a step forward rather than a retrograde step. I'm also intrigued to know how does stick clipping up a route can effect anyone else other than the person doing it? Does it make peoples eyes bleed?

[north_country_boy]

My general point (when not just winding people up) through all of this has been that people have different ideas about what is generally acceptable and that these ideas may develop over time. Where access is not an issue, I see no reason for a blanket proscription on leaving draws in, even if it seems lazy to you. Personally I find yorkshire top-roping/headpointing of sport routes and Shark-style dependence on clipsticks pretty distasteful, but I accept that these people have a different take on things.

Fuck i sound like a right hippie.

Unfortunately (or fortunately for everybody else) you are in a minority here and it would seem that as the majority would not like to risk access problems arising in the future, these 'ideas' which you say have developed over time are avoided. They are certainly not a step forward.

Mecca is a perfect example of how this issue could lead to access problems. I'm sure many (the majority)  will be glad Ben has removed them.

[Three Nine]

Its a matter of taste. And clearly a step back? Or not...

[north_country_boy]

Its a matter of taste.

Not when it has the potential to do more damage than an extra dog up your route each time you arrive at the crag.

And clearly a step back? Or not...

In my eyes, definitely a step back. How would it be interpretted by the National Turst, Wildlife Trust, powers that be? I suspect you know the answer to that.

[Three Nine]

I was alluding to yorkshire headpointing! the implication was that Dylan's teleological view was entirely subjective insofar as rock climbing is concerned

[Johnny Brown]

Where access is not an issue, I see no reason for a blanket proscription on leaving draws in, even if it seems lazy to you.

Aye, I think we get the message now.

Personally I find yorkshire top-roping/headpointing of sport routes and Shark-style dependence on clipsticks pretty distasteful, but I accept that these people have a different take on things.

Seems completely backward to me this? You've no beef with folk drilling holes in the crag, or leaving xmas decorations dangling all over, but seeing other folk being a tiny bit timid really leaves a bad taste? So you're basically saying what's important to you is willy-waving in front of your mates, in the most convenient venue? I suggest you move to New York and climb in a downtown 'gym'.

[Three Nine]

Got it in one, but sadly I need to work on my physique a bit (and willy!) before I could viably do that. And no I have no probs with holes and xmas decorations.

[shark]

Personally I find yorkshire top-roping/headpointing of sport routes and Shark-style dependence on clipsticks pretty distasteful, but I accept that these people have a different take on things.

Fuck i sound like a right cunt

 

[joe cook]

sorry to anyone offended by the new biners.

If anyone's going there tonight and wouldn't mind picking them up before they become someone's crag-swag, that'd be greatly appreciated.

 

[Three Nine]

 

[shark]

sorry to anyone offended by the new biners.

If anyone's going there tonight and wouldn't mind picking them up before they become someone's crag-swag, that'd be greatly appreciated.

 

If they're still there I'll pick them up tomorrow morning

[saltbeef]

  all these tales of deathy draws has made me consider if leaving my gear in my damp rucsac all the time is the best thing to do? any of you tech types have any recommendations? should I just hang them up next to the dehumidifier at home?!

[Johnny Brown]

Sunlight is more of an issue than damp. Nylon is a bit weaker than wet, but it recovers when you dry it out.

[El Mocho]

sorry to anyone offended by the new biners.

If anyone's going there tonight and wouldn't mind picking them up before they become someone's crag-swag, that'd be greatly appreciated.

 

They are right in the back under the start of the route, well out of sight until you get up to the start of Mecca.

On the old tape/krabs I'd also be interested to know there destruction data, especially the draw at the bottom of the groove as I've taken big lobs on it.

Depending on where I go on holiday next week (N.Wales or somewhere else) I will pop into dmm and get them tested. All the mayons show fair bit of wear - big grooves in the bolt end and pretty brown/rusty, they are likely to be strong still but I will prob test one (any suggestions for the others?)

I have got the 2 long slings + 1 old spirit biner. These look fairly knackered - the long one from the crux (4th bolt/3rd permadraw) is cut about 1/3rd through where it goes around the mayon, I would be very surprised if it made double figures in kN but will let people know after the testing (I am no expert in slings, have tested a fair few biners but much less tapes). Ignoring the access/eyesore issue this is a pretty crucial runner on Mecca, with people skipping the 3rd bolt (which is normall) and then often falling off the crux onto the 4th bolt if this did snap you would be hitting the ground.

ps Joe - hope the biners + slings get back to you ok - felt it someone might be more upset to find the draws had been taken off somewhere when they got to the crag rather than stashed at the bottom...

[saltbeef]

Ignoring the access/eyesore issue this is a pretty crucial runner on Mecca, with people skipping the 3rd bolt (which is normal) and then often falling off the crux onto the 4th bolt if this did snap you would be hitting the ground.

exactamundo

[abarro81]

Did whoever took them out strip Evolution, Mutation, the toilet and the stuff on the left? The Evolution ones are always the first I notice.

P.S. Dan, I hope you weren't affected by any laziness and took your draws out at the end of every day when you were on Unjustified? (I'll feel like an idiot if you now tell me you did, but there were certainly a bunch of someone's in for a while on the bit after the 7b around that time.)