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Leaving draws in routes and situ draws (split from Chee Dale conditions thread) (Read 105818 times)

abarro81

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They aren’t long enough or steep enough for it to be a major faff equipping them. 
There's a few that are long though.. Genuine question - are there any known issues with leaving draws in at Malham? I'd like to try Totally Free 2 this year but if I have to take all the draws out of a 70m route each day then screw that.

It’s also a pain for other climbers

Really? I love equiped routes, as do the people I climb with. I'm more likely to get on onsights near my limit when the draws are in, and more likely to play on harder routes.

Nemo

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Yeah, I can see it being a pain on the odd route like Totally Free 2.  Clearly if you’re trying something like this one day and planning on going back the next I can’t see anyone getting too upset - especially if you strip Something Stupid (don’t know of any specific complaints about draws at Malham).  I just don’t think it should become widespread practice as seems to be starting to happen.  And definitely not in places where there is clearly access problems like Cheedale.

chummer

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Having read through this thread I have to say that I am bemused by folk defending their leaving of draws in. I think I have ever only done this once, at LPT as I wanted a quick redpoint the next morning, so I was being a little lazy (oooh get me). To me part of a sport climbing  session is stripping your draws at the end just as it is putting them in in the first place.
 
As has already been said, stick clips make it piss to put the draws back in and it's a good way of warming up these days. Even mega steep routes aren't really that hard to strip, just a little more effort then simply being lowered. What's all the fuss?

As for trying to defend leaving them in where access can be sensitive I am amazed. It's lazy, selfish and a little arrogant in my completely humble opinion..

Obviously there are exceptions as Doylo said like the Diamond and LPT where only climbers will see'em but even here it's rare to see any draws left in routes and never upstairs. God we're so righteous over here  :2thumbsup:

Basically a good rule of thumb might be that if Joe Public can see'em and/or there's an access problem then they should be taken out. Simples. I really don't see the hardship in having to strip'em, whatever the grade or angle. :shrug:

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There's a few that are long though.. Genuine question - are there any known issues with leaving draws in at Malham?


Yes, at a meeting some time ago that was one of the issues the YDP flagged, they didn't bolts because they were visually unobtrusive, but tat and in-situ gear was an issue.


Basically a good rule of thumb might be that if Joe Public can see'em and/or there's an access problem then they should be taken out. Simples. I really don't see the hardship in having to strip'em, whatever the grade or angle. :shrug:

 :agree:  ...apart from the grade or angle bit - The Thumb at Kilnsey being an example.

fatdoc

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Oh fuck it, it's been at least a week since I upset someone on here and it's Friday afternoon, so...

Over the years there have been many conflicts with landowners in Yorkshire over access to crags - Kilnsey, Blue and Yew all spring to mind.  The same applies to many other areas of the country.  Part of the issue was, and undoubtedly still is, the unsightly tat, ropes and even pots and pans that used to be left on crags before we had so many bolts.   A proliferation of leaving gear in place is essentially a return to those days. 

Landowners, walkers and passers by in general don't like to see a whole load of fixed gear on crags.  We are lucky enough to have access to and be able to bolt these places.  Is it really so hard to respect the actual or potential wishes of others and remove gear after your day on the crag if it then avoids conflict and maintains access?  There really is no excuse these days when it's so easy to get the kit back in.  And if you've got one of those silly little Beta sticks go to Decathlon and buy a 6m Roach pole instead - you only need to clip every third bolt!

Take your crap out of the routes and take the rest of your crap (finger tape, bog roll etc) home with you at the same time.  It doesn't matter what crag you're on the same principle of leaving it in as pristine condition as possible should surely apply?

Have a good weekend stick clipping...

this will never happen again....
 :agree:

as for the starting point of this being K3... FFS it's piss to dog!!



SA Chris

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And we've all seen Spirited Away, so know not to mess with an upset spirit.

ed brown

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From memory so please excuse any errors.

Draws in at Kilnsey on Saturday morning 2nd of June...

Indian Summer
The Ashes
All out
Ecstasy
Quiet Flight 7a!!!!!
Zero Option
Progress
True North
Urgent Action
Grooved Arete
La Connection


End of the day and a couple of walkers stroll up the path to have a look. Their entirely amicable first comment "There is a helluva a lot of fixed gear up there".

You bet there is.


Stubbs

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north_country_boy

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From memory so please excuse any errors.

Draws in at Kilnsey on Saturday morning 2nd of June...

Ecstasy

End of the day and a couple of walkers stroll up the path to have a look. Their entirely amicable first comment "There is a helluva a lot of fixed gear up there".

You bet there is.

All other issues aside, those draws in Ecstasy have been put in with fixed Maillon's too.... not good form seen as the route gets and stays wet for so long and they weren't even new in the first place!! I'd suggest anyone on it any time soon strips them.....

That does sound like a ridiculous number of routes equipped. Maybe time to for a cease fire?

Adam Lincoln

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From memory so please excuse any errors.

Draws in at Kilnsey on Saturday morning 2nd of June...

Ecstasy

End of the day and a couple of walkers stroll up the path to have a look. Their entirely amicable first comment "There is a helluva a lot of fixed gear up there".

You bet there is.

All other issues aside, those draws in Ecstasy have been put in with fixed Maillon's too.... not good form seen as the route gets and stays wet for so long and they weren't even new in the first place!! I'd suggest anyone on it any time soon strips them.....

That does sound like a ridiculous number of routes equipped. Maybe time to for a cease fire?

And the ones on Urgent low down? The one that has been in for years high up?  All maillons. No one seemed to complain about that one when stripping the thumb/Urgent. Not saying one way or another here if its right or wrong. Just throwing in some factual info.

TobyD

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From memory so please excuse any errors.
Draws in at Kilnsey on Saturday morning 2nd of June...
End of the day and a couple of walkers stroll up the path to have a look. Their entirely amicable first comment "There is a helluva a lot of fixed gear up there".
You bet there is.
That does sound like a ridiculous number of routes equipped. Maybe time to for a cease fire?
And the ones on Urgent low down? The one that has been in for years high up?  All maillons. No one seemed to complain about that one when stripping the thumb/Urgent. Not saying one way or another here if its right or wrong. Just throwing in some factual info.

Again, I am not making an excuse here, or saying anything is wrong or right; but ... did those walkers turn round and take a look at the number of in situ rotting tractors / JCBs / cars across the road, and pass any comment about that?

Nemo

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Malham, Kilnsey and Goredale are iconic landmarks in the middle of a national park which people travel from far and wide to see, photograph and even paint.  Dead tractors in a field aren’t.

JB was right – people visiting crags like this see a bunch of climbers climbing and tend to go “Ooohh, how exciting”.  The same people at the same places when there are no climbers around but there are loads of in situ clips tend to go “Ooohh, what a mess climbers leave behind after them”.  They don’t get the fact that you’re going back.  Or that draws are easy to remove.  They just see a bunch of junk left behind by people after they’ve climbed something.

View it from the perspective of a photographer travelling a long distance to shoot pictures of Malham at dawn.  If you’d got up a 3 a.m to do this how’d you feel if the crag looked like a Petzl sponsored Christmas tree. 

As for fixed maillons…   :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

And for those who haven’t seen it yet, this is the kind of thing to expect more widely if things continue as they have been:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18204.0.html

uptown

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I'm a climber - not a landowner, walker or passer by and I find permadraws visually offensive.
I do wish people would start thinking from within and for our community - far too much selfishness doing the rounds at the moment.

PATRuL

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Gooood point Uptoon!
I try not to loose any sweat over it personally like, I'd rather save my energy for litter picking.
But on the selfishnessfish vibe, there's far toooo many slippery characters about these days, thinking nothing of an absent minded moment to drop their disposables hither and thither .... all part and parcel (wrapping aside) of our throw away culture ...
... I know where i'd like to throw alot of it ... parp, parp ....
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 10:15:03 am by shark »

SA Chris

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Wonder if this guy is reading and planning a visit;


Falling Down

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I'm a climber - not a landowner, walker or passer by and I find permadraws visually offensive.
I do wish people would start thinking from within and for our community - far too much selfishness doing the rounds at the moment.

 :agree: 

Bonjoy

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 Perma-draw apologists should consider how they would view other outdoor sports folk doing similar things e.g. off roaders leaving spare tyres dotted along Stanage Causeway/fell runners pre-placing bottled water in plain sight all over national parks.

fatdoc

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 :agree:

same as DH runs in wharncliffe, cave dale, the causeway being race taped.....which i have removed.

lets face it,  just take it home...

i dont do routes at the moment much... but at the risk of being an old fart... stop jeopardising the permission to climb for what is basically no big effort to get the clips in at the beginning of the day

Three Nine

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Ah the usual fuckin UKB affected righteous indignation! what a load of  :shit: Perhaps one of those fretting about in situ draws might take the time to remove the biners from Monumental, Roof Warrior, R&P, Jug Jockey etc. etc.  I mean, you can always toprope them to get the clips back, or thread the bolts if they're staples. Fuckin hell there are train tunnels running through Chee Dale. We are talking a bit of tat on a rock. Rocks - people make houses and train tunnels out of them.

boulderingbacon

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the problem is three of nine if something is going to benefit public they seem to accept the destruction of the countryside but they see in situ draws and kick up a fuss which will make it so we cant climb in certain areas so its just easier to make that extra bit of effort to get your draws back out so we can all climb for a long time to come

Baron

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Some of those Cheedale Cornice routes, like Cry of Despair for example, had a single biner on for years to clip into as you lowered off to strip the gear, hence avoiding a massive swing out and impaling yourself on a tree (now cut down).

I don't see a problem with this, after all most belays have more than that on them. But face it, leaving a crag festooned with quick draws is just lazy and selfish.

The first I can remember seeing of this in the peak were Jerry's draws in what became Evolution - I guess he couldn't he aid the bolt ladder so had to free it to get his draws back? The guys a legend, but just because it's an 8c or a project  is still no excuse.

Would I do the same on a route at my limit? No.


Three Nine

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Ah, the usual ukb affected righteous indignation! what a load of  :shit: The biners in monumental, roof warrior, r&p, jug jockey etc etc are just as unsightly as in situ draws, but nobody is going to take them out because its a pain in the arse. There's little difference from an access point of view.

IanP

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Fuckin hell there are train tunnels running through Chee Dale. We are talking a bit of tat on a rock. Rocks - people make houses and train tunnels out of them.

To be honest thats cr*p - the same argument could be used for leaving your all your litter at the bottom of the crag.  Nobody is saying that the peak / dales are wilderness areas but there a big difference between the infrastructure of the community and general rubbish and litter.  The question is whether leaving draws in contributes to a general feeling of littering the crags.

To be honest I never felt that strongly about the odd route with the draws left in but if thats now moving towards a more general trend I would definitely prefer to see it stopped both from a personal asthetic positon and from the perspective of the more general impression the climbing community gives. 

 

SA Chris

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Ah, the usual ukb affected righteous indignation! what a load of  :shit: The biners in monumental, roof warrior, r&p, jug jockey etc etc are just as unsightly as in situ draws, but nobody is going to take them out because its a pain in the arse. There's little difference from an access point of view.

So you think to the non climbing passerby a single biner on a few routes is just as unsightly as every route dripping with quickdraws?

Jaspersharpe

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