[fatdoc]

i'd just like to point out that whilst my post about taking the draws out of mecca might have appeared blunt and indicated a less than considerate attitude to joe's clips, el mocho, myself and one other had quite a long discussion about the relative merits of various courses of action that would mean that the owner (at that point unknown) would get their equipment back. (which they did by the way)

now it seems to me that, apart from joe being slightly inconvenienced, our actions have resulted in raven tor being de equipped which i very much doubt would have happened had we 'asked around'.

they've been there for years and no-one has done anything. well we were there and one of us was motivated enough to remove them so they got removed.

with respect to whether we should have waited - this is obviously debatable but as it happens all of our time is limited (either by work or childcare) so it would have been another month before i get back there and at least a couple of weeks until el m gets bacjk there so this would have delayed matters by who knows how long? forever maybe? maybe by the time we got back to the tor every route would have been equipped.

and maybe this was the week that the national trust turned up and banned us? we'll never know about that one but at least it is no longer a possibility.

 

painful, and not without the above responses... but if we want these playgrounds to remain for our sport Ben... you did right.

thanks.

[Johnny Brown]

he didn't have a draw the right length for the 3rd clip (the critical draw

As someone with some experience of inspecting kit, I saw this draw over the weekend and I'd say this is the single most badly damaged piece of gear I have ever seen still in use. If I saw a mate rack up with it I would have physically prevented them from using it. Access issues aside, the third clip was a very nasty accident about to happen.

[Robbo]

he didn't have a draw the right length for the 3rd clip (the critical draw

As someone with some experience of inspecting kit, I saw this draw over the weekend and I'd say this is the single most badly damaged piece of gear I have ever seen still in use. If I saw a mate rack up with it I would have physically prevented them from using it. Access issues aside, the third clip was a very nasty accident about to happen.

I didn't see him rack up with it, as it was IN-SITU! Hence this never ending thread.

[Johnny Brown]

I wasn't implying you did? The point was the removal of the draw caused you a slight inconvenience. Leaving it there could have caused you a far bigger inconvenience. The damage was well hidden and its not surprising no one had been concerned enough to remove it.

[fatboySlimfast]

having no time/inclination to read the previous 8 pages can i assume that
a) people generally are saying draws should not be left on the crag as its unsightly at public venues and makes us look like scruffy bastards
b)other people are aguing that they have been inconvienienced due to the stripping of insitu draws as its really hard to re gear a sport route
................
 

[Robbo]

I appreciate that, but that has nothing to do with the point that I made originally. It would be relevant if the draws were removed because they looked dangerous, but that WASN'T why they were removed.

I also have no issue with the reasons they were removed. I just felt that the manner in which they were taken out, showed a distinct lack of respect for the person who owned them/was using them. Simple as that.

People seem to be trying to justify other peoples actions, by picking fault with points I'm not even trying to make.
Those peeps have explained why they did what they did and all is right in the World once more. In my tiny World that is. I still stand by my rant, but it's all done and dusted.

I appreciate my opinion doesn't seem to be as valid as that of other people on this site, but in my opinion this topic has been done to death.


 

[shark]

having no time/inclination to read the previous 8 pages

That attitude is what got us in a mess in the first place 

[Robbo]

having no time/inclination to read the previous 8 pages

That attitude is what got us in a mess in the first place 

Simon, as the owner of this fine establishment, can't you take this thread out into the woods and put it out of it's misery with a heavy shovel?

It's had a good innings and keeping it alive while it's suffering is just cruel

[Stubbs]

A good way to let threads die is to stop posting on them 

[Peanuts]

I appreciate my opinion doesn't seem to be as valid as that of other people on this site

That's nonsense ! your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's .... it just happens to be wrong 

Simon, as the owner of this fine establishment, can't you take this thread out into the woods and put it out of it's misery with a heavy shovel?

Oh please dont, I'm really enjoying it 

[Johnny Brown]

It would be relevant if the draws were removed because they looked dangerous, but that WASN'T why they were removed.

The point of wear-and-tear was raised several times in the thread, and was a part of the motivations of those who removed them. You can ignore that if you like though, and keep ranting. Despite being fairly blase about it earlier, having inspected and tested the draws since I now consider UV damage and gradual wear to be a pretty serious issue for in-situ draws.

[Robbo]

I appreciate my opinion doesn't seem to be as valid as that of other people on this site

That's nonsense ! your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's .... it just happens to be wrong 

Well played Sir.

[Norton Sharley]

having no time/inclination to read the previous 8 pages can i assume that
a) people generally are saying draws should not be left on the crag as its unsightly at public venues and makes us look like scruffy bastards
b)other people are aguing that they have been inconvienienced due to the stripping of insitu draws as its really hard to re gear a sport route
................
 

a) . . . and may cause access issues
b) correct
and c) some people are arguing that they can leave draws in irrespective of the opinion of others simply because they can't be arsed to take them out

You probably missed (c) because it was somewhere on pages 1 to 4 (ish).

[shark]

I don't know about the access at other crags, but I do know that Raven Tor is owned by the National Trust and they regularly inspect the crag. I also know, having asked them during one such visit, that they neither understand nor like fixed gear

I spoke to Zippy and he also said the NT weren't at all happy about the fixed gear.

I've also taken Stone's? slings out of Body Machine. If anyone feels especially strongly that the bolt protecting the rockover is particularly hard to clip let me know and I'll put an extra one in lower down.

[Mondo]

You should be able to find a video of testing the perma-draw removed from Mecca's fourth bolt at the bottom of this news item http://dmmclimbing.com/news/2011/07/mecca-quickdraw-test/ Definitely not as strong as you'd like if you were far above it.

[T_B]

So recent ascensionists get an E9 tick then, seeing as they've effectively been climbing 8b+ above a Wallnut #1

[Nibile]

that's very interesting.

[nai]

that's very interesting scary

well done to the guys for stripping it, I know it wasn't the prime motive but probably saved a nasty accident and an education for us all.

[underground]

You should be able to find a video of testing the perma-draw removed from Mecca's fourth bolt at the bottom of this news item http://dmmclimbing.com/news/2011/07/mecca-quickdraw-test/ Definitely not as strong as you'd like if you were far above it.

Great video! Seems to me that the greatest incentive is the thought of decent gear getting swiped - hence, the common policy should probably be to strip the route and leave the draws out in full view, even on ebay, until the owner steps forward to collect them ASAP.

[Johnny Brown]

Couple of minor points to add - not sure how long those draws had been in place, but a fair bit less than five years I think.

Second, although Ben says a climbing fall might generate 2-8kN, that's the force on the climber. Due to the pulley effect on the top runner (ie falling force on one side, plus belayer force on the other) forces can be much higher, theoretically doubled but usually less. I don't think that draw would have lasted the summer without causing a nasty accident. Especially if Dylan carries on forgetting to clip the fourth...

[dave]

Couple of minor points to add - not sure how long those draws had been in place, but a fair bit less than five years I think.

If those that have been tested are the original insitu ones that were put in on maillons, then they've been there at least since 2005. So maybe more like 6 years+. I've just looked at some old photos of rich heap on mecca in july 2005 and the draws are deffo on maillons and petzl draws.

[shark]

I've also taken Stone's? slings out of Body Machine. If anyone feels especially strongly that the bolt protecting the rockover is particularly hard to clip let me know and I'll put an extra one in lower down.

I put a lower bolt in yesterday as the existing one is too high.

[danm]

Are any of these insitu draws which were removed still knocking about? I'm in the process of getting the BMC's portable test machine up and running, if it's ready in time then breaking some of the draws would be quite a topical subject for the next Area Meeting, to compliment the excellent DMM video.

[shark]

I'll email Stone to see if he wants the slings back. They would have had some action. Reeve has a couple from the Prow if you want to PM him. None of them would have had anything like the wear and tear of the Mecca ones.

[tomtom]

I have some old (c.20 years) well stored and not used much (ie non UV'd but old) QD's you can test if you like?
As well as some old (30 years?) ones - origin unknown?

In fact there would probably be great merit in testing as many as possible from a range of ages, so you get a good number of results (max, min, averages, distributions etc..)? I'm sure folk on here have a range of old kit they wouldnt mind donating for research?