[moose]

Righteo... I need a big tick to cheer myself up after surgery and The Secret Seventh and Lay-by Arete are the projects I reckon I'm closest to.

Secret 7th
Basically, I can get a good hold of the high RH arete pinch on almost every attempt - LH on terrible crimp and RF heel-hooking.  But I can't make the move up to the big LH sloper.  My legs are too long to just get the RH onto the pebbley foothold high on the arete.  I've tried smearing lower on the arete with my RF, but none of the smears feel good enough.  I've also tried hopping my LF up the arete a bit and then trying to get the RF onto the pebble, but it doesn't feel like a goer and I always end up in an odd a'cheval position.  Any tips or advice for lanky types?  Or, is it just a matter of being strong enough to do a casual one-armer off the RH pinch?! By the way... how hard is it once you get that LH sloper - it all looks rather blind and green.

Layby Arete
I've been alternating with two methods for ages on this.  One method (that I've seen Andy Swann try) uses a RF toe/heel-hook behind the starting flake, with LH on the obvious arete smear, LH high on arete and RH on a smaller, intermediate flake.  I then statically try to reach the RH to the high arete hold.  I've occassionally managed to grab the arete, but when the RF rips, I always just swing off.

The alternative is just to get the RF on the arete smear and boule straight for the high arete hold with the RH - either from the starting flake or using the smaller intermediate flake.  This method seems to critically depend on how I wrap my LF around the arete (high seems best), although whereever I have it, I just always seem to have too much momentum to hold the RH target hold and end up spinning onto my mats.

Since I 'm equally unsuccessful with both methods, I'm finding it hard to choose between them.  So, in the interests of saving skin, what's the consensus best method?  Any advice for holding the barndoor/swing once on latching the high RH arete hold (aside from "get more contact strength"!).   

Any help with either problem much appreciated.  Nothing's too small - sometimes the smallest bit of advice about body position or attitude makes all the difference.

[Bonjoy]

I think the Rf method is better on Layby Arete. It takes a while to get the feel, but once sorted is the sort of knacky move that is easily repeated. If you get it right there is next to no barndoor to fight when you get the hold. The other way is powerful and tenuous.

[rootask]

on secret seventh try toe hooking with your left foot whilst you take the right heel out. it stops the barn door completely and you can step easily onto the pebble. i am also crippled with gangliness but i find it okay to get my foot up like this. the tops fine, you can slap as wildly as you like onto the slopers cuz theyre pretty decent, especially the 2nd one.

[moose]

Cheers Bonyjoy, re the RF method on Layby, where do you have your LF?   Do you consciously position it anywhere: high or low, leg wrapped fully around the arete or keeping the LF close to the arete?  I've tried all sorts of positions but the outcome is a bit unpredictable (more to do with beef than 'owt subtle).

Rootask.... toehooking the LF?  Presumably hooking the left foot around the arete - whereabouts?  Sounds a bit crazy as you'd be essentially dangling from the handholds without actually standing on anything whilst the RF is repositioned.  Still, it's the kind of madness that might just work!

Cheers fellas

[Bonjoy]

From what I recall it was mid height and heel well around the corner. It helps with avoiding the barndoor if you pull on with the barndoor already as open, so to speak, as balance allows.

[Johnny Brown]

Layby - its all in the feet. When you step the right foot through keep the foot fairly vertical, but heel slightly out (to the left). Then heel hook low, just above the other foot, and point the toe down a bit. Lean back on your arms, don't pull in too agressively. Comme ca:



I have seen a famous climber throw his boreals into the heather after an hour of failure though, so decent boot rubber helps. Failure he could handle, it was being burnt off in trainers he couldn't. Not by me I hasten to add.

Secret seventh - you're not alone. My sequence is a fucking cold day and a three go rule.

[SA Chris]

No Beta, just curious what surgery you had Moose? Hope you are healing OK.

[moose]

Cheers for all the beta.... I'll hopefully give the Secret 7th a go soon (even with my near immunity to "conditions" I reckon Slipstones in full glare of a sunny day might be a bit much).

Re the surgery, I had a lump from within my neck removed.  Thankfully it was just a huge cyst (9x5cm!) attached to a salivary gland rather than anything sinister (the scans and biopsies had all been inconclusive).   Still, the surgery wasn't fun - three hours under and access holes cut through the floor of my mouth and my neck.  The cuts have healed but I'm not yet fully recovered - post-op complications left a drainage hole in my neck that means I can't do anything too unhygienic for another month (which rules out a large part of my job).  Main thing though is that I've just got the all clear to go climbing... albeit with a fetching neck dressing!

[SA Chris]

Shame it's not mid winter and you can't wear a scarf. Sounds grim, hope it heals OK.

[andy_e]

Shame it's not midwinter and you can't hold that sloper on secret seventh! Get well soon!

[tomtom]

Glad to hear you're on the mend Moose - that sounds really grim..

& Cheers for the beta JB too, I've been having a sneaky play on Lay By this year and my first instincts are to do mooses method 1 (but I am tall...) but shall try the RF way a bit harder next time..

[Johnny Brown]

Youth in the pic is pretty tall. And strong. And light. Etc.

[moose]

My wearing a scarf would be rather like the Elephant Man trying to disguise himself with a baseball cap! 

Andi -  using that slopey crimp hasn't ever been a problem, even on warm-weather visits; although this weekend could put that to the test (an early morning visit may well be in order).  Generally, conditions are rarely an issue for me.... but there's bugger-all compensating for unmuscular lankiness!  My attempts on the Secret 7th start with what I hope are graceful, body-tensiony reaches... that then degenerate into frantic leg flailing and arete humping, akin to a palsied spider on amphetamines.

[Johnny Brown]

Hmm. Secret seventh is about as conditions dependent a problem as I've encountered. Makes a big difference  -if its near your limit, likely the difference between possibility and im.

[moose]

Glad to hear you're on the mend Moose - that sounds really grim..

& Cheers for the beta JB too, I've been having a sneaky play on Lay By this year and my first instincts are to do mooses method 1 (but I am tall...) but shall try the RF way a bit harder next time..

Cheers for the well-wishing... I had a very reassuring trip to the hospital yesterday so I am feeling a lot more positive.  I'm trying to mentally down-grade my current status from a life-ruining cluster-fuck of complications, to a messy but minor side-effect (it helps that I've now got the all clear to climb and have a shave and a shower for the first time in 2-3 weeks). 

Tomtom, re Layby Arete, when I saw Mr Swann trying to use "Method 1" he was RF toe-hooking the flake.  I am too tall to do that and instead use a tenuous heel-hook.  Perhaps too much height could rule out that method completely.  The frustrating thing is that I've managed to latch the target hold almost well enough with both methods on a few occassions.  Generally on the first go of a session - falling off more from surprise than anything - and not getting as close again for the rest of the day!  Still, I keep coming back.  The main problem now though will be waiting for an unseasonably cool day.  Except in direct sunshine, my skin isn't often a problem, but my shoes on those smears are a different matter.

[tomtom]

Tomtom, re Layby Arete, when I saw Mr Swann trying to use "Method 1" he was RF toe-hooking the flake.  I am too tall to do that and instead use a tenuous heel-hook.  Perhaps too much height could rule out that method completely.  The frustrating thing is that I've managed to latch the target hold almost well enough with both methods on a few occassions.  Generally on the first go of a session - falling off more from surprise than anything - and not getting as close again for the rest of the day!  Still, I keep coming back.  The main problem now though will be waiting for an unseasonably cool day.  Except in direct sunshine, my skin isn't often a problem, but my shoes on those smears are a different matter.

Yup - thats exactly how it feels 'right' for me - but just getting stood properly on that LF with the LH in a high enough position is a real crank.. only got there a couple of times... The RF on the smear feels like its a real shin scraper!

[groovedog]

Found this video so thought worth adding to the beta archives

[Paul B]

Layby Arete
The alternative is just to get the RF on the arete smear and boule straight for the high arete hold with the RH - either from the starting flake or using the smaller intermediate flake.  This method seems to critically depend on how I wrap my LF around the arete (high seems best), although whereever I have it, I just always seem to have too much momentum to hold the RH target hold and end up spinning onto my mats.

A friend (FAist perhaps?) used a crazy palm move in conjunction with this beta (although this is seriously testing my memory), so instead of just bouling over wildly he'd slap his R palm against the RH side of the arete to stop his momentum and then carry on reaching for the higher hold.

[tomtom]

Its a nice vid though - thanks Groovedog...

[Johnny Brown]

The wind in that vid might have helped a bit too!

Have since down this the other way too, seemed less conditions dependent and easier for the tall. Not toe or heel-hooking the flake on the right but pulling in with the toe, placed on as normal (though possibly pointing down), hips very open.

[sjw]

The wind in that vid might have helped a bit too!

It was cheating conditions that day for sure. I've done it with the toe hook method too (do I get a gold star?) which was very shoe-dependant I thought, but a lot less scary. I've had some nasty shin scrapes from poor footwork on the arête foothold. Tried the spatchcock hips method, but it felt impossible this way.
 
I suppose this is one reason why it's such a great problem, there's a few different sequences that all have class moves but feel equally as impossible until you find the right one for you.

[Probes]

Righteo... I need a big tick to cheer myself up after surgery and The Secret Seventh and Lay-by Arete are the projects I reckon I'm closest to.

Secret 7th
Basically, I can get a good hold of the high RH arete pinch on almost every attempt - LH on terrible crimp and RF heel-hooking.  But I can't make the move up to the big LH sloper.  My legs are too long to just get the RH onto the pebbley foothold high on the arete.  I've tried smearing lower on the arete with my RF, but none of the smears feel good enough.  I've also tried hopping my LF up the arete a bit and then trying to get the RF onto the pebble, but it doesn't feel like a goer and I always end up in an odd a'cheval position.  Any tips or advice for lanky types?  Or, is it just a matter of being strong enough to do a casual one-armer off the RH pinch?! By the way... how hard is it once you get that LH sloper - it all looks rather blind and green.

Secret seventh was a gripe for me for years, just couldnt stick that right foot up... until the 'obvious' tall man beta was shown to me. Crucially getting the arete pinch as a palm pinch/guppy then bobbing the left foot onto either pebble or smear rather than right, feels nails until the secret to the guppy is unlocked, then when you hit the slope its not bad to stick.

[tomtom]

RE: Lay-by

Was up at Slipstones yesterday late afternoon in good connies and made some progress on lay-by. Got to the point (twice) of going for the arete. Considering I'd not got off the ground before - I'm pretty happy...

I was using the method shown in the vid by Groovedog and on JB's picture. It struck me that the hardest move (albeit I've not done probably the crux!) was getting the LF to stick low on the arete when popping the RF into the low break (2nd or third move). It seemed critical to get the LH arete high at just the right point, and I ended up using a gaston style hand clamp on the arete rather than just laying off it with the fingers (I have holes in my palm now ). This allowed me to put a lot of weight through my LH - to help the LF low on the arete to stick. Once I'd bounced my RF onto the low break it was fine and I was away - but that early move was very low percentage for me. It seemed quite critical as to how I placed my LF low on the arete... a toe smear rather than towards the instep - and slippers (supermoccs) seemed marginally better than a stiffer (VCS) shoe..

Also - the two times I fell from the high move I had quite an awkward landing, as my legs were straight when I came off - so I landed straight legged :/

Anyway, the vids and pics above were really useful and I'm looking forward to my next battle!