[abarro81]

Anyone have any thoughts/experiences on how much to focus on specific styles of moves, holds etc within individual sessions? E.g. Over 2 sessions, is it better to spend one session focused on crimps and one on pockets (thus really making sure a style gets worked properly in a session) or both sessions mixing it up (possibly allowing more volume)?
Cheers

[Nibile]

i think that going specific is better. maybe one could mix a special type of hold with a special type of move on the wall.
ie: an intense session on monos on the fingerboard, then dynos on big holds on the wall

the more specific the training, the faster we burn out. we can't have an intense session on crimps and then an intense session crimping on boulder prpoblems. the climbing will be less intense because of the previous work.

[tomtom]

I'm no expert but it probably depends on the frequency of the training.

If you get to go every 3 days then variety is fine, but if you are training every day or other day then it may be best to focus on fingers one session, arms the next etc.. so you place less repeated stress on individual components. Even with a fingerboard you can work one session on deadhangs on the smallest holds, then next session on pull ups/lock offs on larger etc..

[abarro81]

the more specific the training, the faster we burn out.

This is the advantage I could see in mixing it up within sessions - say I can warm up and then do 1hr on crimpy problems before I get tired, I could maybe do 45min on crimpy ones then 45min on big-moves-big-holds before getting too tired. Thus over 2 days (2 sessions) I could get 1.30 on each style rather than just 1 hr.... But I don't know whether the mixing it up would make the training less (or more?) effective.?

Tomtom: 5 days a week climbing or training, occasional double-session days. Just wondering if others have found they made more gains from one style or the other, or if anyone knows how the beasts of the world do it.

Anyone know about other sports? Do weighlifting beasts focus their sessions on particular muscles/regions of the body or mix it up within sessions?

[Rocksteady]

Depends what you mean by weightlifting beasts...

Most bodybuilders usually try to exhaust a specific area of the body in one session using a variety of exercises to hit it. Tuesdays arms and back for example! Basically focus is on isolating the muscle group and breaking it down maximally for optimal muscle growth.

However, strength athletes - power lifters etc - will usually focus on compound exercises which train muscles to work together to maximum ability.

Same as anything, probably a combined approach works best. Why not try 4-6 weeks isolating grips over different sessions, then do 4-6 weeks doing 'compound' sessions working different grips/moves in the same session? One of the fundamental principles of exercise is to 'shock' your body with new regimes in order to keep it improving.

[JonI]

I guess it depends a bit on how long you've been training for.  For beginners more variety is probably better in the long run, while elite climbers benefit from making things more specific.  Most people who are training regularly probably fall somewhere between the two and  should do some mixture of focused and more general sessions.

I try to do my power sessions when I'm fresh and keep them very focused and quite short, but the day after I might do a session with more variety, to work more on overall technique and general conditioning.

[clgladiator]

the more specific the training, the faster we burn out.

This is the advantage I could see in mixing it up within sessions - say I can warm up and then do 1hr on crimpy problems before I get tired.......
Anyone know about other sports? Do weighlifting beasts focus their sessions on particular muscles/regions of the body or mix it up within sessions?

I know what im trying to do at the moment is say crimps till my crimp strength feels like its all gone, then get on slopers till thats gone then some core or arms, this means that everything is getting trained in a session, best time:value i feel.

I think in weightlifting it is sometimes done tiring one muscle group then working on another, this more effectively targets the second muscle group. Im not sure of the effects this would have during climbing training though as we are generally doing compound exercises rather than isolating.

Chris 

[The Sausage]

I, personally, don't think it's too important trying to work out the exact optimum training compositition/frequency. Focus and trying really hard are much more important variables. Keeping it basic allows you to try harder, as you don;t have to think too hard about what you're doing.

Setting measurable targets for each session, and working as hard as you can to achieve them, is likely to give better results than fretting about wether you're doing the correct form of training.

Doing things that you are motivated for, rather than forcing yourself to things you're not that bothered about, is probably going to be for productive.

But that's only my opinion.

oh yeah, and being honest about, and focussing on, your weaknesses. and trying to match your training to your climbing goals.

[abarro81]

Probably right there... good points.

[shark]

Except that doing things that you are motivated for and working your weaknesses are usually mutually exclusive.

[slackline]

Except that doing things that you are motivated for and working your weaknesses are usually mutually exclusive.

Unless you're motivated to work your weaknesses 

[shark]

Unless you're motivated to work your weaknesses 

Which of course we all should be.

Joe/Sausage's main point of focussing on putting a lot of effort in to elicit a training response rather than stressing too much about the optimum mix of activity in a session and other minutae is well worth making.

It is also one of the key themes in Dave Macs 8 out of 10 or as he puts it most climbers are stuck on the basics and lost in the details.

[Three Nine]

Buoux 8c reckons you ought to know exactly what bit you're training, but there's more options than just grip types - ie. pockets vs crimps/arms vs fingers vs core etc.

As far as training for projects goes, I think Simon is right about training for specific projects, and the others are right about working weaknesses. As someone with a lot of motivation and discipline, maybe you should select a project requiring shizzle that really aint your style and train for it.

I would say you ought to find a project with small moves between dirty little edges, then train for that, thus saving yoself from ever being burnt off at Pixies Hole.

[shark]

As someone with a lot of motivation and discipline, maybe you should select a project requiring shizzle that really aint your style and train for it.

I think there is a lot of merit in this strategy.

Normal advice is to choose a project that suits you (to score a higher grade). But that doesnt take you much further on generally as a climber. However, if you take the contrarian route of choosing a project that doesn't suit you it then it gives you a very definite purpose and psyche to train your weaknesses. This should be better to advance your climbing generally rather than taking you down the route of becoming  a specialist in your own personal cul de sac.

[Three Nine]

I guess if you were really to be training for something, it really needs to be hard enough so that you couldn't do it at the moment? It also needs to be good enough that you are motivated to train for it. I don't know enough about Northern lime to suggest owt though? Maybe something at Malham, that way you wont get as many sessions on it as you'd like, and so your aim will necessarily have to be to do it quickly, so you'll need to train for it rather than training on it? what do i know...

[Three Nine]

Obviously if you were really going to work your weaknesses you'd get a bird.

[abarro81]

I've definitely got stuff at malham and the tor that I want to do that's fingery and crimpy rather than my default big moves on jugs... will use them as inspiration for doing 5cm moves on the foundry board. This will of course make me irresistible to all DFBWGC too...

[Davey_C]

Do weighlifting beasts focus their sessions on particular muscles/regions of the body or mix it up within sessions?

When my brother did a lot of weight training he would do something along the following lines.

Day 1 - Back and Biceps
Day 2 - Legs and Shoulders
Day 3 - Chest and Triceps

Basically he would work each major muscle group separately, with at least 3 days rest before it is worked again. The smaller muscles would get thrown in with a major muscle group, generally triceps are what gets worked with chest exercises and likewise biceps normally get worked with back exercises.

He would then use techniques to work muscles to fatigue, like assisted lifts or drop sets - for example do dumbell curls, at say 15kg, to exhaustion. Then imediately do 10kg curls to exhaustion, then 5kg curls to exhaustion. Be careful with these techniques though as they can easily lead to injury. 

[Paul B]

Problem with that is the shoulder workout will be hitting the triceps as well and if you do the chest for your next session your (my) tiny little tri's are going to be exhausted or at least tired, then your chest won't perform at its maxiumum because you'll fail before it does.

With weights, supersetting and clear rest has lead me to achieve my best results. I read somewhere about stretching the opposig muscle group allows you to lift more which probably explains things.

In climbing, I think you're going to struggle to get anywhere near this level of isolation training and splitting the focus in sessions. Fitting or rather organising, fingerboarding, that traversing stuff that I can't immediately think of the name, general climbing and days out is hard enough is it not?

[abarro81]

that traversing stuff that I can't immediately think of the name

  Here I was thinking you were a fully signed up stamina man nowadays....

I don't do weights, they were just something I thought of as a 'what do people in other sports do' question. (Interestingly (to some) Randall told me last night that the Spanish use a lot of stuff inspired by swimming as it has similarly long contractions, unlike a lot of other sports.)

The question was inspired by me going on the foundry board and thinking 'should I do a session just on small holds and small moves, then another one on big moves and big holds later in the week, or is it better to mix it up?' then extending that to thinking about grip types etc. I think I already know the answer really which is that I should just do more stuff with small moves and small holds in general...

Given my lack of overall organization in terms of phases etc, this minutae of exactly how to split sessions up probably isn't the most important thing, it's just a lot easier to think about and apply than more overarching plans..

[richdraws]

Weights for strength is all about doing as much as possible whilst as fresh as possible. Bulgarian weight lifters for example keep their workouts as short as 45-1hr. They are under the impression that testosterone levels can only be elevated for approx 45 mins. Paul mentions supersets, they allow more work to be done than if you did straight back to back sets. I wouldnt have the foggiest how to apply supersets to climbing but perhaps mix grip types and problem steepness throughout a workout? Mebbe thats why font style circuits are so good.

However sometimes you need a bit more muscle so then you need to be tiring the normal muscle fibres you use so that you are forced to use the lazier fibres too.  This is usually done by shortening rest periods or performing lots of exercises for a muscle group.

I think the 45-1hr bit is probably the most interesting. Workouts are often only seperated by 30 mins of keeping warm and stretching out shoulders. So you may want to break sessions at the wall or even outdoors into individual workouts with individual goals.

I guess that being so bad with the birds means you have plenty of testosterone to spare anyway.

[Three Nine]

Just to revive this thread and go back to the original focus -

I have learnt from training on my board that, if you want to do some problems involving hard moves on pockets, you are better off doing the whole session on pockets so you're warmed up and recruited well on pockets (different from being recruited on edges etc.) Sorry if this sounds really obvious, but it does suggest that you may need to have some sessions focussed on one grip type in certain cases.

[shark]

you are better off doing the whole session on pockets so you're warmed up and recruited well on pockets (different from being recruited on edges etc.) Sorry if this sounds really obvious, but it does suggest that you may need to have some sessions focussed on one grip type in certain cases.

I'm interested in what you say but as a pocket is an edge with sides on it I can't see how hanging a first joint edge with 3 fingers is any different to hanging a first joint pocket with three fingers for example.

Thinks about it a bit more......

It makes more sense if lets say you are distinguishing between crimping with all fingers on an edge vs open hanging a second joint pocket with two fingers.

I guess its not the holds per se but how you hold them.

[Three Nine]

I dont think that's the case - we we're looking at this last night. Imagine the hand is on a motorbike throttle..
If I take an edge on my board, my hand is accelerating much less than with a pocket. Thats probably a crap way of putting it, but with a pocket my wrist is much lower.

Also, and probably more importantly, training pockets involves splitting fingers/using fingers in isolation, and I think you need to warm up specificially for this.

[abarro81]

Simon's right - it's grips not holds that's the distinguishing feature... But you're right about having to be warm on pockets - the foundry has very few so I've been doing some hangs on them in the middle of bouldering (mainly edges, pinches etc) and definitely have to spend a few minutes getting the fingers used to being like that. Maybe I should just man up and drag all the holds on the wave, but my thumb has other ideas.